EPTOP Deathballs was nothing more than people not being accustomed to abusing rigid playstyles.
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 428
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
OP Deathballs was nothing more than people not being accustomed to abusing rigid playstyles. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 16 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote: The decreased range on NP is going to hurt endgame ZvZ. Now it's just get BL+Infestor = GG since you can't NP the BL outside of their infestors range anymore. It's also pretty stupid for PvZ. Don't need to explain why. Did Blizzard like what happened with the infestor on PTR or something? to be honest I have never seen in a pro match in zvz where a zerg gets neural and tries to neural broodlords. So I don't think thats ever been an issue. | ||
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MattyClutch
United States711 Posts
On September 16 2011 06:43 Belial88 wrote: ^ Watch any Destiny ZvP, particularly Destiny vs Combatex. There's just loads of VODs where C-ex says "LOL IMMA MAKE DEATHBALL, BE BACK IN 10". Prepatch, he always won doing this too, post-patch, destiny trashed him. There's also a popular VOD of Combat-ex explaining how to troll or something, it's probably his most popular vod, and he makes a deathball. The zerg actually ends up killing his deathball, but combat-ex had taken like 12 bases against 2 base zerg and was trolling him hardcore, I think he cheesed him and all sorts of nasty stuff so it didn't matter in the end. But you can tell he goes like "oh shit..." which is hilarious, because he totally didn't expect it, bu combat has too many bases too lose. Then any cruncher vod really. I've never seen deathball in the GSL, surprisingly. I think I saw it once, and it was a weird game and Zerg already lost it, but he was supposed to actually win it but he threw it away (it was GSTL, and the zerg's team literally got up and cheered because they thought the game was over). I think it was Leenock? But key word he lost, so no NP there. I believe Sen and a lot of the koreans go baneling rain, like DRG. I'm not sure what VODs to link with that. I will try to watch some Cruncher ones I guess. Can't say I view combatx and destiny as top level. I mean they could destroy me, but not really what I was looking for. I just haven't ever seen it in my own play (though someone once stormed me with my own HT and I thought that was a neat trick) or at high level yet everyone seems to be saying it is the anti Colossus. | ||
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xAPOCALYPSEx
1418 Posts
Neural was never the problem with the infestor as many have said; it's fungal growth's root ~_~ | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 16 2011 06:43 Belial88 wrote: ^ Watch any Destiny ZvP, particularly Destiny vs Combatex. There's just loads of VODs where C-ex says "LOL IMMA MAKE DEATHBALL, BE BACK IN 10". Prepatch, he always won doing this too, post-patch, destiny trashed him. There's also a popular VOD of Combat-ex explaining how to troll or something, it's probably his most popular vod, and he makes a deathball. The zerg actually ends up killing his deathball, but combat-ex had taken like 12 bases against 2 base zerg and was trolling him hardcore, I think he cheesed him and all sorts of nasty stuff so it didn't matter in the end. But you can tell he goes like "oh shit..." which is hilarious, because he totally didn't expect it, bu combat has too many bases too lose. Then any cruncher vod really. I've never seen deathball in the GSL, surprisingly. I think I saw it once, and it was a weird game and Zerg already lost it, but he was supposed to actually win it but he threw it away (it was GSTL, and the zerg's team literally got up and cheered because they thought the game was over). I think it was Leenock? But key word he lost, so no NP there. I believe Sen and a lot of the koreans go baneling rain, like DRG. I'm not sure what VODs to link with that. By "deathball" you mean that old style of Colossus/VR, right? In that case, you won't see it in GSL, or played by anyone remotely good, cause it's bad. Was kind of bad even before the Infestor nerf, tbh. Why do you even keep bringing it up, are people doing that on the ladder or something? Now, if by "deathball" you mean "maxed Protoss army with expensive tech", then there are multiple GSL games with Zerg beating it without NP. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Well infestors can work against the deathball now, but it's more of an even fight kinda deal than a counter. The counter has always been either fungal+baneling rain (which was actually nerfed cos the fungal hold is the key here), or more reliably just abuse their poor mobility. OP Deathballs was nothing more than people not being accustomed to abusing rigid playstyles. But Zerg doesn't have any counters to it. At best, Zerg has an 'even fight' (not really) against something so ridiculous and easy to execute. And a lot of maps, you can't really abuse mobility, like Typhon Peaks and to an extent Tal Darim. to be honest I have never seen in a pro match in zvz where a zerg gets neural and tries to neural broodlords. So I don't think thats ever been an issue. How many pro ZvZs have you seen that got to lair? How many ZvZ's got past the muta vs muta? How many ZvZ's, the pros actually even went muta vs muta? The metagame in ZvZ has hardly been figured out, and I think many people just don't understand it well. As we know, muta is the way to open in ZvZ but most pros still don't get mutas. The muta change is also something extremely new too, something that has just been innovated, as opposed to buffed or nerfed or patched. Then people insist Ultras are the future, but Ultras get trashed by infestors, which are 'the future' too, which people have still yet to fully utilize in ZvZ. Regardless of where ZvZ is going at the end game and hive tech (and some argue that hive tech isn't even worth it in zvz, which is a valid argument too), the broodlord switch by some zerg who is completely losing and stuck turtling on 3 bases, can really fuck over the player who has the huge advantage, that shouldn't lose in any other way, and NP is a way to make sure that doesn't happen. I suppose it's rather niche, but I would argue that NP on BL was a great feature to the game and gave options to it, not hurt it. Can't say I view combatx and destiny as top level. I mean they could destroy me, but not really what I was looking for. I just haven't ever seen it in my own play (though someone once stormed me with my own HT and I thought that was a neat trick) or at high level yet everyone seems to be saying it is the anti Colossus. They aren't top level, Combatex just makes troll deathballs and you see how Destiny used to struggle with it, and now he owns it every time with infestors. It's only a PvZ phenomena, and I think a lot of the pros don't do it because they are more interested in timing pushes? I'm not sure, a lot of PvZ is kind of figured out by how Zerg takes their third, at the pro leve, so the game is kind of decided before deathball is an issue. I think in korea it wasn't popular because of baneling rain. | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
Don't you think it's funny Blizzard is actually trying to tweak the infestor while IGNORING Hydralisks' and Corruptors' issues ? It's very sad that Zerg are almost FORCED to go Infestor against EVERYTHING because the 2 others "T2 units" are broken... | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
It's only a PvZ phenomena, and I think a lot of the pros don't do it because they are more interested in timing pushes? I'm not sure, a lot of PvZ is kind of figured out by how Zerg takes their third, at the pro leve, so the game is kind of decided before deathball is an issue. See, this is how I've always seen it. Players at the top level are just that, on a whole different level. Someone like Nestea can look at anything his opponent is doing and figure out insane timing attacks that would only work in that certain scenario, people like him win games because he is brilliant at figuring out the subtle cracks in the opponent's play and exploiting them. So things like balance changes won't make a huge impact on top tier player's ability because most of their skill seems to come from just their immense amount of practice and insight into the game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 16 2011 08:12 Shade_CsT wrote: I don't know if someone noticed this : Don't you think it's funny Blizzard is actually trying to tweak the infestor while IGNORING Hydralisks' and Corruptors' issues ? It's very sad that Zerg are almost FORCED to go Infestor against EVERYTHING because the 2 others "T2 units" are broken... What can they possibly do? What would you do? Take the hydralisk. Right now, at is timing, it crushes any 3 gate robo push, and roach/hydra does very even against zealot/stakler/immortal. With the timing, it almost hard counters single stargate play, and with drops, nydus, or just walking (even on larger maps) you can pretty much kill a protoss going single stargate. But, it's worthless against blink. It's pretty much a BO loss to double stargate. Mass gate pushes like 6 gate, or even 5 gate beat it. Yet, it counters immortals and non-blink stalkers. The problem with hydralisks has to do with sentries, colossi, and largely it's low health and mobility. Double stargate shouldn't beat it, you'd think, but it does due to the low health with phoenix pick up (and they're bonus damage to light). Blink beats it, and sentries rape the shit outta hydras. So on paper, it's very balanced ZvP, but in reality, it has no application. If it came faster, it'd rape 3 gate openers or 3 gate robo or anything protoss can do on 1 base, really, and if it came later, it'd be too late to any good against single stargate, which is the only case hydralisks can have any application at all ZvP. It's design and place in tech is just horribly out of place. It's a unit that needs to be removed, as no amount of buffing can change it's function in ZvP. It'd be nice to think an increase in speed would help it, and in a way, it'd be a small buff to ling/hydra timing attacks as you wouldn't need to rely on nydus or drops (which are actually pretty bad all-ins that only work against single stargate openers from FFE really). But the big problem is their low life. Which is necessary for balance, but comes a huge problem later in the game when 3 factors can come into play: 1. The extremely high DPS per area of air units vs ground units This is a problem that can be fixed with giving hydras more range and faster speed... but hydras already have high range, and making hydras faster (not just off creep, but on creep) isn't as good a solution as making phoenix (and mutas really) slower.... which is a whole other can of worms and a stupid thing to due to ramifications to other parts of the game 2. Splash This is a problem with hydras having really low life. But making hydras just a roach with 2x the life, 2x the damage, and same speed, and 2x the range, would be kind of ridiculous. I suppose that would be a 'fix', but it'd be weird. Not to mention, giving hydras more life would cause issues with ling/hydra timing attacks, making them not just powerful agaisnt single stargate, but pretty much any P opener. 3. Game changer upgrades Things like Blink and thermal lance totally change the dynamic of certain units vs other units. They make units, like zerglings, suddenly bad against stalkers. A lot of the game changing upgrades for units - actually all of them - charge, blink, thermal lance, all these upgrades make hydralisks extremely irrelevant. Meanwhile, the increased range for hydralisks does nothing to improve the unit, it only makes them somewhat viable given their extremely low speed. The range does nothing to allow hydralisks to have any niche use, like to be able to kite, or make it good against units it is originally bad against. Then Terran units have such high dps per cost, that hydralisks are worthless in the match-up. Even banshees own hydralisks once produced in enough number, because of the high DPS per area of air units means you can use a small group of clumped air units to pick apart slow hydras. Just like in ZvZ, air units own hydras. In ZvZ, we see that mutas own hydras. If you split your hydras into two groups at each base, the mutas will take them head on and win, and then proceed to kill the rest of the hydras. If you group them together, the mutas will just go to the other base that's unprotected. This would all be okay if hydras were good units in an army, but as it turns out, roaches actually beat hydras. So does FG. And so do baneling. The Corruptor has issues, and I'm not sure why they wouldn't buff it. I think the issue is they don't want Zerg to just have vikings, and want to prevent Zerg from playing like Terran. But Zerg played like terran until infestors were buffed, so I don't know. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On September 16 2011 08:46 Belial88 wrote: What can they possibly do? What would you do? For corruptors, I would make Corruption a range-1 AOE spell instead of a single-unit cast (I think 1 is good enough, read on to get the desired effect). This would allow you to corrupt 3-5 bunched-up units at a time, making corruptors a slightly more versatile unit once you've cleared the "air units" (lets be honest here, we use them to kill colloxen, no one makes BCs or Carriers ^_^). For Hydras I would remove their "light" status so they would only be biological. And then I would either: Increase their movement speed to match speed-roaches (I'd be happy with an upgrade option for 150/150). OR Increase their range by 2 (starting range 6, upgraded to 8). OR Add an HP upgrade anywhere between +20-45 (100-125 max hp with upgrade), costing 200/200 Hydralisks suffer from a fundamental unit design flaw. A basic fundamental when designing a "glass" cannon is that they are very weak, and have high damage output. A few units that match this criteria are Collosi, Banshees, Hydralisks, Seige Tanks, reapers and casters. One of the necessities when designing a unit like that is allowing the unit the ability to output its intended damage before dying. Thus Collosi are given incredible range, AOE and cliff-walking, Banshees can cloak and and fly, Seige Tanks are given the longest range in the game incredibly burst-damage and AOE, casters are given high-power, long-range, AOE spells. But the Hydralisk has no ability to give it a fair chance to output any damage before having a rock thrown at it (glass cannon, get it?). It lacks mobility, so it can not retreat like a reaper, collosi or banshee caught with their pants down. It also lacks a range advantage, so it can't deal any damage before coming under attack like a seige tank, collosi, or spell caster. So it's actually a pretty easy fix. First, you remove its light status. Remove all forms of bonus damage against it, since 80 hp for 100/50 is already weak enough defense for the desired effect. Then, you either increase it's mobility so that it's able to get in, deal it's damage, and get out when it needs to. Or you increase it's range so that it's able to get some damage done before it dies. Otherwise you have to increase the health of the unit so that it's no longer a "glass cannon", and becomes a Jack-of-all-Trades, such as Marines or Stalkers. Given the options, I would personally opt for the simple HP buff and removal of light status. The Jack-of-all-Trades unit is sorely lacking in the Zerg arsenal, and leaves Z players heavily reliant on Infestors to be that unit (something I don't believe infestors were ever intended to be). Hydras as a Jack of all Trades would solve Z's anti-air weakness (we use FG and Infested Terrans for ground to air defense), it would solve Z's range disadvantage (I know Roaches are awesome, but their low range causes problems with FFs, not such a problem in ZvT because roaches aren't heavily used). The increased DPS Hydras provide compared to roach-heavy armies would help Zerg against the large Deathballs we see from both Terran and Toss (heavy mech, toss late-game). And it would give Blizzard more room to weaken the infestor, which any honest Zerg would admit is much too versatile. Heck, I could see FG doing no damage at all if Z's had a unit to take advantage of it... I don't know, maybe a slower unit that requires units to be held in place in order to deal heavy damage? Maybe I'm thinking too excessive a nerf, but it's a thought. Anyway, those are the changes I would make to the Corruptor and Hydralisk. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On September 16 2011 09:47 Nemireck wrote: For corruptors, I would make Corruption a range-1 AOE spell instead of a single-unit cast (I think 1 is good enough, read on to get the desired effect). This would allow you to corrupt 3-5 bunched-up units at a time, making corruptors a slightly more versatile unit once you've cleared the "air units" (lets be honest here, we use them to kill colloxen, no one makes BCs or Carriers ^_^). For Hydras I would remove their "light" status so they would only be biological. And then I would either: Increase their movement speed to match speed-roaches (I'd be happy with an upgrade option for 150/150). OR Increase their range by 2 (starting range 6, upgraded to 8). OR Add an HP upgrade anywhere between +20-45 (100-125 max hp with upgrade), costing 200/200 Hydralisks suffer from a fundamental unit design flaw. A basic fundamental when designing a "glass" cannon is that they are very weak, and have high damage output. A few units that match this criteria are Collosi, Banshees, Hydralisks, Seige Tanks, reapers and casters. One of the necessities when designing a unit like that is allowing the unit the ability to output its intended damage before dying. Thus Collosi are given incredible range, AOE and cliff-walking, Banshees can cloak and and fly, Seige Tanks are given the longest range in the game incredibly burst-damage and AOE, casters are given high-power, long-range, AOE spells. But the Hydralisk has no ability to give it a fair chance to output any damage before having a rock thrown at it (glass cannon, get it?). It lacks mobility, so it can not retreat like a reaper, collosi or banshee caught with their pants down. It also lacks a range advantage, so it can't deal any damage before coming under attack like a seige tank, collosi, or spell caster. So it's actually a pretty easy fix. First, you remove its light status. Remove all forms of bonus damage against it, since 80 hp for 100/50 is already weak enough defense for the desired effect. Then, you either increase it's mobility so that it's able to get in, deal it's damage, and get out when it needs to. Or you increase it's range so that it's able to get some damage done before it dies. Otherwise you have to increase the health of the unit so that it's no longer a "glass cannon", and becomes a Jack-of-all-Trades, such as Marines or Stalkers. Given the options, I would personally opt for the simple HP buff and removal of light status. The Jack-of-all-Trades unit is sorely lacking in the Zerg arsenal, and leaves Z players heavily reliant on Infestors to be that unit (something I don't believe infestors were ever intended to be). Hydras as a Jack of all Trades would solve Z's anti-air weakness (we use FG and Infested Terrans for ground to air defense), it would solve Z's range disadvantage (I know Roaches are awesome, but their low range causes problems with FFs, not such a problem in ZvT because roaches aren't heavily used). The increased DPS Hydras provide compared to roach-heavy armies would help Zerg against the large Deathballs we see from both Terran and Toss (heavy mech, toss late-game). And it would give Blizzard more room to weaken the infestor, which any honest Zerg would admit is much too versatile. Heck, I could see FG doing no damage at all if Z's had a unit to take advantage of it... I don't know, maybe a slower unit that requires units to be held in place in order to deal heavy damage? Maybe I'm thinking too excessive a nerf, but it's a thought. Anyway, those are the changes I would make to the Corruptor and Hydralisk. I guess the main complaint is the unit role overlap between roach and hydralisk, but I think it would be cool if hydralisks were more like brutalisks from the desert strike ums, and were incredibly long range aa/durable/but crappy melee. That way they could hit colossi with aa without being too similar to a roach. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On September 16 2011 09:52 KimJongChill wrote: I guess the main complaint is the unit role overlap between roach and hydralisk, but I think it would be cool if hydralisks were more like brutalisks from the desert strike ums, and were incredibly long range aa/durable/but crappy melee. That way they could hit colossi with aa without being too similar to a roach. Well that's something of a fair complaint. But I don't really see a unit overlap so much as 2 units that compliment each other very well. Roaches are burst-damage ground-to-ground mini tanks, whereas Hydras are (or rather, should be) a more versatile unit, with more DPS over time (not burst), longer range and the ability to also attack air. My idea of making the Hydra a Jack of all Trades would be supplemented by a fairly substantial nerf to the way Infestor's Fungal Growth works. I would like to think up ways to make FG cost a little less energy, or have longer root time, but deal 0 damage, supplemented by an army that would benefit from units being held in place. Mainly, I'm thinking of ways to continue to efficiently deal with marines without heavily relying solely on FG and banelings. What I can think up is that with my proposed JoaT change to Hydras, they could become a viable unit in ZvT, and since they outrange marines, then Infestors with FG to hold marines in place while Hydras shoot at them from 6 range (and alternatively, snipe medivacs) would be a decent way to deal with marines in place of FG alone. Tanks vs Hydras could still be an issue, so the idea definitely would need to be fleshed out. As for ZvP, I envision an army composition of Roaches, with their shorter range, higher speed, high HP and burst-damage tanking damage and softening the opposing army's front line, with Hydras behind cleaning up, and 3-5 infestors FGing (preferably without damage output if Hydras were a stronger unit) to hold the army in place, and NPing at opportune times. In a perfect world, my corruption buff would also be in place, so you'd still have corruptors to deal with colloxen, and then a useful corruption ability to help in the army battle. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:04 Zaurus wrote: Does corruptors really have issues? You could build like 10 of them in a production cycle while Terran can't. They can be built in preparation of broodlords. Equal no of roaches crush equal no of stalkers. Why not keep attacking to keep the Protoss tier one units low? Zerg at often times should have better Econ and units in the early and mid game. Why take the game to 200 vs 200? Or is your 60 APM not enough to attack and macro while Protoss have to put on all the pressure? I am so glad blizzard are recognizing how protoss are facing an uphill battle against Terran and Zerg. Time for protoss to crawl back to the top. I think most of the complaints are that corruptors just aren't a terribly interesting unit. They bring down any colossi/air units, then they pretty much just sit there. Phoenixes, vikings, and voids can all be used as harass, while corruptors really only have one role. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
As for helping ground units, we know that the problem is best case scenario and engagement for Zerg, we kill all the colossi, but there's about 10 stalkers left and our ground army is dead. And that's best case scenario. For Hydras I would remove their "light" status so they would only be biological. And then I would either: Increase their movement speed to match speed-roaches (I'd be happy with an upgrade option for 150/150). OR Increase their range by 2 (starting range 6, upgraded to 8). OR Add an HP upgrade anywhere between +20-45 (100-125 max hp with upgrade), costing 200/200 Colossi and Storm don't do extra damage to light as it is, sentries fuck up hydras due to their slow speed and still having less range than colossi and 1 less range than stalkers (so you still have problems where stalkers are picking off small clumps of hydras). I suppose increasing their range would help a lot vs both sentries and stalkers. An HP upgrade would sound great too. There needs to be a 'formula changer' upgrade for hydras well - right now, stalkers lose to hydras, then get blink and beat them. There should be a way to hydras beat stalkers, stalkers with upgrade (blink) beat hydras, and then hydras with upgrade again beat stalkers, and overcome sentries too. But then you just make hydras instead of roaches in end game. All it is, is a better roach. Why not have a t3 upgrade to make roaches 2 x health, 2 x damage, 2 x range? Mass hydras in end game would just be completely unstoppable, it would be much like mass marine but better due to more durability. I suppose the low mobility would balance this, but that doesn't sound right for a Zerg unit. Hydra/BL or Hydra/Infestor would then be a bit OP, although I suppose with the NP nerf it'd be okay, even against colossi, since our anti colossi would be worse than vikings but our ground army would be better than MMM. I mean those aren't the worst changes, but I don't like them. It's just the wrong direction IMO, the hydra should be completely removed as a unit. No one uses them and people are doing fine without them. Zerg know now that Hydras are horrible against air, and don't make them, knowing it's actually a mistake to make hydras against air. We see in ZvZ that mutas ALWAYS beats hydras as an opening. For similar reason, double stargate, double starport, beat them too. Your buffs wouldn't change this fact either, as those would be costly and time consuming upgrades. The big problem in ZvZ is that hydras beat them, and roaches beat them. If hydras beat roaches and mutas, it would be okay, and I think blizz thought that would be the case. The big issue with hydras is *timing*, so I don't think those changes would do anything to make hydras better. Rather, hydras would still be worthless to defend against air or include in your midgame army, but would simply be the go-to unit to mass in end game. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:21 Daralii wrote: I think most of the complaints are that corruptors just aren't a terribly interesting unit. They bring down any colossi/air units, then they pretty much just sit there. Phoenixes, vikings, and voids can all be used as harass, while corruptors really only have one role. They're not boring, they can CORRUPT! Which other unit can synergize with EVERY other unit by adding damage that scales with the rest of your army? That's right, no other unit can do that! Oh who am I kidding, you pointed out exactly what is wrong with corruptors. Because they do nothing at all to ground units, a tech switch makes them dead weight, which often leads to the Zerg's death if he overproduced corruptors and the opponent does a tech switch. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
against collosus or storm they are utterly useless tho. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:36 Belial88 wrote: You are aware that Corruption is a useless ability right? It takes the same number of volleys for Corruptors to kill Colossi, unless you have 14-16 Corruptors, or more than 28 Corruptors. So making it an AoE spell wouldn't change anything, since it's a useless spell in the first place. I'll take your Hydra rebuttal for what it is, a fair and accurate rebuttal to my idea, but you've completely misunderstood the purpose of making corruption AoE. Corruption is useless to use against Collosi, I agree, in fact, given the size of the collosus, and considering the AoE range I propose, I think it's obvious that the intended target of the AoE change is anything BUT collosi. I'd like to see it useful against the OTHER ground units that your ground units are trying to battle, while the corruptors take out the collosi. Surely there are enough roaches/hydras/lings on the ground that corrupt makes a difference in how well a group of stalkers would hold up against a group of roaches. Thus corruptors are still the "counter" to collosi, but also serve a purpose in helping your ground army hold up against the ground army of your opponent. | ||
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
so essentially you have to neural parasite all but one or two of whatever sized ball of the big units they have, while taking hits when you walk in, and being popped as you control them. I just don't see that being viable for the energy compared to fungaling and praying you do enough damage. | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:45 Vaporized wrote: as someone who makes hydras 80-90% of the time zvt i would like them to be slightly faster. against collosus or storm they are utterly useless tho. I don't know what league are you in (I guess bronze/silver), but you would win more games if you used your ressources on something more usefull than Hydralisks... it's a waste... | ||
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