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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
Storm works great against Roaches. How about you actually go and try it out yourself some time instead of waiting till you see progamers use it? Christ, people are such sheep. Progamers also didn't really use Infestors much, does that mean Infestors sucked? durp durp it honestly blows me mind how much random scrubby players limit themselves to "omg im not gonna do anything I dont see pros use!" | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:59 Nemireck wrote: That's ridiculous. 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. Sentries in the mix can all but guarantee that not a single blink stalker will be lost vs roaches. Next time someone says blink is good vs broodlords I will tell them 20 broodlords kill 20 blink stalkers incredibly efficiently. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Corruption is useless to use against Collosi, I agree, in fact, given the size of the collosus, and considering the AoE range I propose, I think it's obvious that the intended target of the AoE change is anything BUT collosi. I'd like to see it useful against the OTHER ground units that your ground units are trying to battle, while the corruptors take out the collosi. Surely there are enough roaches/hydras/lings on the ground that corrupt makes a difference in how well a group of stalkers would hold up against a group of roaches. Thus corruptors are still the "counter" to collosi, but also serve a purpose in helping your ground army hold up against the ground army of your opponent. Interesting. But hydras would still be useless (unless i guess your buffs came into play though) due to dying so fast. And, this is just an opinion, but I think it'd be worthless. Idra is one of the pros out there who's very consistent in corrupting every single ground unit and everything with his corruptors, and it never helps him at all. The spell just doesn't do enough, it's basically a +1. And how many big battles have you seen where you can tell, protoss didn't need to micro, or 3/3 wouldn't have even changed the outcome. Zerg just gets killed so hardcore by that deathball. still not quite sure what they're smoking. the only legitimate targets for NP I've seen in games are tanks, thors, Bcs and collossus. All of which have equal range to the infestor and the capability of killing them in a single volley of a couple of units, in two cases with splash. so essentially you have to neural parasite all but one or two of whatever sized ball of the big units they have, while taking hits when you walk in, and being popped as you control them. I just don't see that being viable for the energy compared to fungaling and praying you do enough damage. Yea I hate it. Mass mech (make helion/siege tank on 2 base then get 3 thors to time with mass mutas, bring scvs so mutas can't magic box and lol banes against tanks?) and deathball play is way too fucking strong against zerg, it's ridiculous how easy they are to pull off and how hard it is for zerg to deal with. as someone who makes hydras 80-90% of the time zvt i would like them to be slightly faster. against collosus or storm they are utterly useless tho. GuineaPig when hydras against I think thorzain in a zvt? he's random and rolled Zerg... and the casters just lauuuuughed at him. Hydras are bad in ZvT, they die to everything, and the one use they have in ZvP, as a timing attack, doesn't exist in ZvT. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:41 Lomak wrote: You don't have to 1A your army into the storm bro. I'd love to see a replay of yours where you use storm though now that you mention it. For the lulz. Obviously you don't 1A your army through Storm rofl, but the point is, if you even try Storm an army that is running away they are literally in the AOE for at most a second and you end up getting situations like HongUn did in the GSL where his Zealots ate more of the storm than the Marine/Marauder did. It is generally never a good idea to Storm units that are running away if you want to chase them down also If you somehow managed to get the Templar super close and you can Storm further ahead so the Roaches run into it, then that is awesome but those kinds of scenarios are few and far between since Templars tend to be near the back/middle and given the fact that Roaches only burrow to weather the Storm, then unborrow and run away at almost double the speed | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:48 Dommk wrote: Obviously you don't 1A your army through Storm rofl, but the point is, if you even try Storm an army that is running away they are literally in the AOE for at most a second and you end up getting situations like HongUn did in the GSL where his Zealots ate more of the storm than the Marine/Marauder did. It is generally never a good idea to Storm units that are running away if you want to chase them down also If you somehow managed to get the Templar super close and you can Storm further ahead so the Roaches run into it, then that is awesome but those kinds of scenarios are few and far between since Templars tend to be near the back/middle and given the fact that Roaches only burrow to weather the Storm, then unborrow and run away at almost double the speed Um, have you ever tried...not storming units that are running away? | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:45 BeeNu wrote: Rofl you people are ridiculous. Storm works great against Roaches. How about you actually go and try it out yourself some time instead of waiting till you see progamers use it? Christ, people are such sheep. Progamers also didn't really use Infestors much, does that mean Infestors sucked? durp durp it honestly blows me mind how much random scrubby players limit themselves to "omg im not gonna do anything I dont see pros use!" I have 2000 games as Protoss. Storm is utter garbage against roaches unless you can trap them with FF AND they don't have burrow. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:52 BeeNu wrote: Um, have you ever tried...not storming units that are running away? Are you trolling me right now or did you just not read the last page >_>? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Corruption is useless to use against Collosi, I agree, in fact, given the size of the collosus, and considering the AoE range I propose, I think it's obvious that the intended target of the AoE change is anything BUT collosi. I'd like to see it useful against the OTHER ground units that your ground units are trying to battle, while the corruptors take out the collosi. Surely there are enough roaches/hydras/lings on the ground that corrupt makes a difference in how well a group of stalkers would hold up against a group of roaches. Thus corruptors are still the "counter" to collosi, but also serve a purpose in helping your ground army hold up against the ground army of your opponent. Interesting. But hydras would still be useless (unless i guess your buffs came into play though) due to dying so fast. And, this is just an opinion, but I think it'd be worthless. Idra is one of the pros out there who's very consistent in corrupting every single ground unit and everything with his corruptors, and it never helps him at all. The spell just doesn't do enough, it's basically a +1. And how many big battles have you seen where you can tell, protoss didn't need to micro, or 3/3 wouldn't have even changed the outcome. Zerg just gets killed so hardcore by that deathball. still not quite sure what they're smoking. the only legitimate targets for NP I've seen in games are tanks, thors, Bcs and collossus. All of which have equal range to the infestor and the capability of killing them in a single volley of a couple of units, in two cases with splash. so essentially you have to neural parasite all but one or two of whatever sized ball of the big units they have, while taking hits when you walk in, and being popped as you control them. I just don't see that being viable for the energy compared to fungaling and praying you do enough damage. Yea I hate it. Mass mech (make helion/siege tank on 2 base then get 3 thors to time with mass mutas, bring scvs so mutas can't magic box and lol banes against tanks?) and deathball play is way too fucking strong against zerg, it's ridiculous how easy they are to pull off and how hard it is for zerg to deal with. as someone who makes hydras 80-90% of the time zvt i would like them to be slightly faster. against collosus or storm they are utterly useless tho. GuineaPig when hydras against I think thorzain in a zvt? he's random and rolled Zerg... and the casters just lauuuuughed at him. Hydras are bad in ZvT, they die to everything, and the one use they have in ZvP, as a timing attack, doesn't exist in ZvT. You guys are completely missing the point here. Zerg can't be given an efficient colossus counter. It can only have inefficient ones. Colossi and immortals are the only units Protoss has that can beat roaches. Roaches are a straight-up hard counter to basically every Protoss unit or combination of units except immortals and colossi, and immortals aren't that good against them either. Because of how bad storm is against roaches, Protoss cannot use templar as their AE unit. They must use colossus. If colossi can be easily taken away by NP, what can Protoss possibly do? Feedback is a marginal infestor counter at best but even if you consider it a good counter, is Protoss supposed to make stalkers, sentries, colossi, AND templar? Where are they going to get the gas for that? And yes you need sentries, it is fairly easy to beat stalker/colossus with just pure roach if they don't have sentries. Infestors ARENT cost efficient though. In the process of channeling NP or chaining FG, you will ALWAYS lose infestors. As the most expensive caster, it's impossible to win with if you don't have a macro advantage. You may win impressive battles with BL/Infestor, but unless you have a macro advantage you will always die. That's why 2 base or even 3 base BL/Infestor always gets rolled. And stalkers beat roaches for supply, which is a big part of the early game when neither side can take a supply lead until something big happens, like Zerg taking a third or a big battle occuring. Then with Blink and FF, you can eventually beat them for cost. And colossi are just wayyyyy too good against roaches. Don't just write off and say "oh yea, p only really has one good unit against roaches". It's more like Protoss has one good unit against roaches, that's also amazing against everything Zerg has on the ground, that's a staple P unit, that's reeeeally good against roaches and Zerg has a hard time countering. Storm isn't 'bad' against roaches, it's just bad for cost, meaning you can't really afford to go like Zealot/Storm against roaches. However, if you have a stalker army, or colossi army, storm really hurts on top of it. When colossi are NP'd, you can snipe them with blink and other colossi. You can micro away from it, as both are the same range, and FB destroys it as well. If Zerg tries to NP or chain FG, with FB you just wreck infestors. I'm tired of hearing P say FB doesn't work, because it's always pulled off. Infestors make it all about positioning, and I know pro protoss have commented that FB is definitely useful against infestors (huk, tyler, artosis). Yea, your supposed to make HT against infestors. If you didn't open HT and BO win with it, you can use your army to secure a third, as infestors take a long time to get out. There's a reason Protoss don't rush HT every game, because you'll die in the meantime, well, infestors cost more to tech to, take longer to tech to, take longer to come out, and cost more, so you can easily grab a third against it. There's also a great Losira vs Genius game on Xel Naga Fortress last season where he opened infestors. Genius simply held off the infestor/ling timing attack, and then grabbed a third. He didn't get HT, he just outmacro'd it. Infestors are so damn cost inefficient and die easily, kind of like everything Zerg has, and like everything Zerg has, they can be very cost efficient but they need a supply advantage. And it's not 'easy' to beat stalker/colossi without sentries using roaches, I don't know what you're talking about. Stalker/Colossi will always beat a roach army. If there are 5 Corruptors per colossi, Zerg *might* kill the colossi but will lose their entire ground army in the process. And we've definitely seen our share of 'impossibly expensive' protoss deathballs, like VR/Colossi, so don't tell me that getting 2-3 HT is harder to afford than 5 more colossi and VR. Anyways, I see a lot of Zerg here saying storm slaughters roaches. It's not really... that simple. Roaches are very cost effective against storm, so say one person opens HT and the other goes roaches, the roach player will win. But in the end-game, like Zealot/Archon + storm will beat roaches, it just scales very well in the end-game. You can't rely on storm to beat roaches, however, but it definitely does tear through them. It's not so much storm is bad against roaches, it's that you can't focus your build with storm against roaches, whereas you can rely on storm keeping you alive against mass ling. But Stalker/Colossi w/storm, that'll chew through roaches much harder than without storm and having like more stalkers or colossi. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:53 Xequecal wrote: I have 2000 games as Protoss. Storm is utter garbage against roaches unless you can trap them with FF AND they don't have burrow. I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:48 Dommk wrote: Obviously you don't 1A your army through Storm rofl, but the point is, if you even try Storm an army that is running away they are literally in the AOE for at most a second and you end up getting situations like HongUn did in the GSL where his Zealots ate more of the storm than the Marine/Marauder did. It is generally never a good idea to Storm units that are running away if you want to chase them down also If you somehow managed to get the Templar super close and you can Storm further ahead so the Roaches run into it, then that is awesome but those kinds of scenarios are few and far between since Templars tend to be near the back/middle and given the fact that Roaches only burrow to weather the Storm, then unborrow and run away at almost double the speed You can use forcefields in conjunction with storm to great effect. Granted it's not something most protoss can do, that's a lot of actions required in a short period. But then again watching good zergs controlling Broodlords, infestors, muta lings and blings is just as impressive. It's a beautiful thing. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:53 Xequecal wrote: I have 2000 games as Protoss. Storm is utter garbage against roaches unless you can trap them with FF AND they don't have burrow. It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do? | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:46 iamke55 wrote: Next time someone says blink is good vs broodlords I will tell them 20 broodlords kill 20 blink stalkers incredibly efficiently. Seriously. Cost of 20 Roaches: 1500 minerals, 500 gas. Cost of 20 Stalkers: 2500 minerals, 1000 gas. The stalkers cost way way more. A better comparison would be: 33 roaches: 2475 minerals, 825 gas 20 Stalkers: 2500 minerals, 1000 gas Which is a much closer fight, and the 20 stalkers is still more expensive. Then remember that zerg has more money than protoss available to him at most points in time. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 16 2011 12:03 Whitewing wrote: Seriously. Cost of 20 Roaches: 1500 minerals, 500 gas. Cost of 20 Stalkers: 2500 minerals, 1000 gas. The stalkers cost way way more. A better comparison would be: 33 roaches: 2475 minerals, 825 gas 20 Stalkers: 2500 minerals, 1000 gas Which is a much closer fight, and the 20 stalkers is still more expensive. Then remember that zerg has more money than protoss available to him at most points in time. That, by itself, is making a lot of assumptions about what happened in the game up to that point. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:59 BeeNu wrote: I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims. Are you serious? Against a Zerg that is going some type of Roach heavy or pure Roach play you don't go Templar, you go Colossus. That is like Protoss 101. The timings usually work out that those Roach heavy plays tend to hit before Storm is even finished anyway. Besides, I don;t even know why this even an issue anymore. No one goes mass Roaches anymore unless it is the Losira style 3base drone mass roach counter to a FFE (Storm won't be done in time to defend that). Generally it is always Ling/Bling/Roach or something like that, which Storm works really well against On September 16 2011 12:05 Lomak wrote: That, by itself, is making a lot of assumptions about what happened in the game up to that point. Making the assumption that the Zerg is at an economic advantage isn't big assumption at all. How many competitive ZvP matches have you watched lately where the Zerg has not had an economic advantage? I can't think of any | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 16 2011 12:05 Lomak wrote: That, by itself, is making a lot of assumptions about what happened in the game up to that point. It's assuming a normal game. If there is a point that the protoss has hindered the zerg to make him not ahead at that point in time, that means the protoss is outplaying him and deserves the win barring a huge error. Zergs will just continue to try and act like the matchup is protoss-favored despite zerg having been ahead in international winrates since April. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:59 BeeNu wrote: I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/514657/1/Xequecal/ | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On September 16 2011 12:08 ShooTouts wrote: this seems like its a massive patch.... I am almost wondering if Blizz is trying to make this the final patch before HotS They would like that, but the chances of that happening are almost 0, there will be other issues, and I will be very surprised if they do not touch ghosts before HOTS is out. | ||
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