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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 16 2011 11:38 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:35 Havefa1th wrote:
Burrow and burrow movement are a big investment, and signals the mid game tech they're committing to. If you're continuing to press against burrowed roaches (which are the correct counter to sentry and HT heavy gateway armies) then you're just a bad player. Once you see burrow, back up, stalker up and tech switch.
Against regular roaches, stalker heavy armies plus storm and FF's tear roaches up. Tech switch to what? Colossus? With the old NP that's right out, it takes a hell of a lot longer for me to get colossus than it takes for him to get infestors to counter.
If you aren't tech switching to colossi while pushing with HT, you're a bad player because if you intend to stay on HT for any extended period of time, you deserve to lose due to the Zerg gaining the correct counters to your build.
And I GUARANTEE you can get colossi out of double robo bays very very fast. And you have feedback with your high templar tech already... why are you complaining?
If you play like that (it's very simple... 2 base hard gateway with HT push into a 3 base double robo colossi) you will beat me and most other Zergs on ladder over 65% of the time, no matter what build we do. I guarantee it.
P.S. You may have 2000 wins on ladder as protoss... you also have like 4000 losses. Jesus, no wonder you're complaining
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On September 16 2011 12:18 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:16 ScythedBlade wrote:On September 16 2011 12:13 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 12:12 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?
No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal. You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right? Nope ...that doesn't work so well unless you have > 3 Collosus, a good amount of immortals, or a nearly equal amount of blink stalkers, providing no fungal growth is nearby ... Otherwise, infestors by themselves are cost effective, and with roaches, they rape so badly. oh ok just create hypothetical scenarios that make it impossible for you to ever do anything. rofl
You clearly have never read a balance discussion before.
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On September 16 2011 12:29 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:16 BeeNu wrote:Alright, well at least you're not at a completely terrible league or anything so I'll give you a bit of credit. But on that same not I still think you have no clue what you're talking about when you say Storm sucks against Roaches. They outheal storm while burrowed. I don't see how you can call storm good against that.
This is false. This might have been true in beta or something I don't remember but it's definitely not true now.
Storm is still pretty good at softening roaches but you need something to actually deal the killing blow. Immortal + HT + gateway army is perfectly fine in dealing with vs roach/infestor midgame.
edit: I don't know why blizz doesn't do more gradual changes like change NP to 8 range and then if they still feel it is OP then reduce it further to 7 or something.
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On September 16 2011 12:38 Sedz wrote:
I really think you have no idea what you're talking about. Infestor's do not 'hard-counter' colossi. Fungal works great against deathballs because most protoss can't micro and NP works great against colossi because most protoss can't micro. Our only hard-counter to the colossi is a horrible 2 supply unit that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas that doesn't even do what it's designed to do effectively, therefore we need something else to counteract this.
Also, if you are trying to argue that only one protoss qualifying for Code S is a byproduct of the zvp metagame at the moment then you'd be completely wrong and should stop.
I also lol'd at 'horrifically overpowered'
Ah yes, the classic, "none of my stuff is overpowered, all the players playing the other side all just suck" argument. Seriously, stop insulting my intelligence by trotting this out.
Yes, NP in its current form hard-counters colossus. I can't believe I even have to explain this.
I'm also well aware corrupters only function as a soft counter. That's the point. Since your roaches are so much better than all my other units, I have no chance if you also happen to have a hard counter to my colossi.
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On September 16 2011 12:45 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:38 Sedz wrote:
I really think you have no idea what you're talking about. Infestor's do not 'hard-counter' colossi. Fungal works great against deathballs because most protoss can't micro and NP works great against colossi because most protoss can't micro. Our only hard-counter to the colossi is a horrible 2 supply unit that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas that doesn't even do what it's designed to do effectively, therefore we need something else to counteract this.
Also, if you are trying to argue that only one protoss qualifying for Code S is a byproduct of the zvp metagame at the moment then you'd be completely wrong and should stop.
I also lol'd at 'horrifically overpowered'
Ah yes, the classic, "none of my stuff is overpowered, all the players playing the other side all just suck" argument. Seriously, stop insulting my intelligence by trotting this out. Yes, NP in its current form hard-counters colossus. I can't believe I even have to explain this. I'm also well aware corrupters only function as a soft counter. That's the point. Since your roaches are so much better than all my other units, I have no chance if you also happen to have a hard counter to my colossi.
Bro come on, just admit that zergs are better than protoss and the only reason they are stuck in the same league as those crappy players who can't micro is because their race is grossly underpowered. Admit it.
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On September 16 2011 12:45 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:38 Sedz wrote:
I really think you have no idea what you're talking about. Infestor's do not 'hard-counter' colossi. Fungal works great against deathballs because most protoss can't micro and NP works great against colossi because most protoss can't micro. Our only hard-counter to the colossi is a horrible 2 supply unit that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas that doesn't even do what it's designed to do effectively, therefore we need something else to counteract this.
Also, if you are trying to argue that only one protoss qualifying for Code S is a byproduct of the zvp metagame at the moment then you'd be completely wrong and should stop.
I also lol'd at 'horrifically overpowered'
Ah yes, the classic, "none of my stuff is overpowered, all the players playing the other side all just suck" argument. Seriously, stop insulting my intelligence by trotting this out. Yes, NP in its current form hard-counters colossus. I can't believe I even have to explain this. I'm also well aware corrupters only function as a soft counter. That's the point. Since your roaches are so much better than all my other units, I have no chance if you also happen to have a hard counter to my colossi.
Please stop posting in this thread.
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On September 16 2011 12:32 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:24 BeeNu wrote:
dude, you have to actually to try and use some logic on your own without me having to spell out every little detail for you. Why would you go straight to HT with skipping Robo tech? that makes 0 sense at all, there is no synergy with your army that way. What, are you actually going to get Chargelots and Blink Stalkers and then sloooow High Templar? Yeesh. The simple thought of that is so ludicrous I honestly didn't think you naturally would be assuming such a thing in the first place, I guess I expected too much.
I skip colossus because infestors hard-counter them, well at least the old NP infestors do. That was the whole point from the start. I feel like I'm just going in circles here. Zerg can't have an effective colossus counter because roaches outright slaughter any Protoss composition that doesn't include them. You can't rebut this point by assuming the Protoss suddenly has colossus in his army. If you give Zerg an effective colossi counter like they have now, you get the <30% winrate in PvZ. New GSL Code S is 10 Terran, 5 Zerg, 1 Protoss. I have plenty of evidence showing Zerg are shitting all over Protoss in general, and it's because Infestors, like Ghosts, are a horrifically overpowered anti-everything unit in the matchup. Infestors counter EVERYTHING, and Protoss simply loses the game once Zerg reaches 15-20 of them. And seriously, get both HTs AND colossus? Have you ever played Protoss? That's literally 1000 gas spent on tech and tech buildings that doesn't shoot at the enemy. Sure, I might do that late game once I've taken a fourth base, but it's not something you can survive the midgame or even early late game on.
Well for starter I strongly disagree that Infestors just hard counter Colossus unless maybe you're trying to just mass them out all game long but that's a pretty bad way to play in the first place I think. There's nothing wrong with just cranking out 4-5 Colossus, retaining them and moving into High Templars to add to your army. I also strongly disagree that you are going to get slaughtered by Roaches if you have any non-Colossus composition, you can most definitely fight against Roaches with just a Gateway army, it's actually quite balanced at that level of just Gateway vs Roach/Ling until the point where you're getting horribly outmacroed. Adding Colossus to the mix just tips the battle into your own favor, until Infestors are created in which case you should be moving into HT anyways.
You honestly think mixing both Colossus and High Templar into your army is too hard? No, not at all. And yes, I have played Protoss a fair bit.
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On September 16 2011 12:40 Havefa1th wrote:
If you aren't tech switching to colossi while pushing with HT, you're a bad player because if you intend to stay on HT for any extended period of time, you deserve to lose due to the Zerg gaining the correct counters to your build.
And I GUARANTEE you can get colossi out of double robo bays very very fast. And you have feedback with your high templar tech already... why are you complaining?
If you play like that (it's very simple... 2 base hard gateway with HT push into a 3 base double robo colossi) you will beat me and most other Zergs on ladder over 65% of the time, no matter what build we do. I guarantee it.
P.S. You may have 2000 wins on ladder as protoss... you also have like 4000 losses. Jesus, no wonder you're complaining
Why should I tech switch to colossus when the Zerg can get out infestors that hard counter them much quicker? You can build an infestation pit and research neural parasite only slightly slower than I can build a robotics bay and get out a single colossus. Getting thermal lances takes even longer.
Also, push with HTs? We've already established HTs are garbage against roaches. How am I going to push with them? I'm on the defensive with my HTs because they don't do jack against roaches. A quick third into mass roach is the STANDARD Zerg response to 2-base play, I'm pretty sure I won't get much of anywhere wasting my time with that. Maybe I'll get a few wins against Zerg that neglect to research burrow movement but other than that no.
Also no, I don't have twice as many losses as wins, nobody on ladder does, it places you so your win/loss ratio is roughly 1.
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On September 16 2011 12:40 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 11:38 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 11:35 Havefa1th wrote:
Burrow and burrow movement are a big investment, and signals the mid game tech they're committing to. If you're continuing to press against burrowed roaches (which are the correct counter to sentry and HT heavy gateway armies) then you're just a bad player. Once you see burrow, back up, stalker up and tech switch.
Against regular roaches, stalker heavy armies plus storm and FF's tear roaches up. Tech switch to what? Colossus? With the old NP that's right out, it takes a hell of a lot longer for me to get colossus than it takes for him to get infestors to counter. If you aren't tech switching to colossi while pushing with HT, you're a bad player because if you intend to stay on HT for any extended period of time, you deserve to lose due to the Zerg gaining the correct counters to your build. And I GUARANTEE you can get colossi out of double robo bays very very fast. And you have feedback with your high templar tech already... why are you complaining? If you play like that (it's very simple... 2 base hard gateway with HT push into a 3 base double robo colossi) you will beat me and most other Zergs on ladder over 65% of the time, no matter what build we do. I guarantee it.
Wtf, 3 base can't support that much Production... You will have like 160 food army with a virtually non-existant gateway army or no upgrades...
Generally it is something like 2base Blink Stalker into High Templar before/just after you get your third and then Start Colossus off one Robo after your third has been up for awhile/securing a forth
You don't need that much Colossus if you go Templar anyway, just around 3-4 Colossus.
You can't finish off a Zerg on three bases anymore, that era is long gone, mostly because Infestors shut that down pretty hard. ZvP these days is all about looking for favorable trades and being able to keep up with expansions
edit:
NP is only an issue in the late game, you can open Colossus safely, that isn't a problem. In Destiny's own words:
"it's [ZvP] messed up due to the fact that NP "breaks" colossus and infested terran harass is insanely awesome"
The IT thing might not be an issue since the JYP style deals with it pretty well, he seems to have his Storm timing down to have it just finished before Zerg tries any of that funky business with IT's. The problem with opening Templars is being un-able to punish greedy Zergs, but you see more and more Warp-prism usage these days, especially the Templar drops that you see JYP does to keep the Zerg busy
NP is still an issue in the late game though. Regardless of how people feel about it, it most likely won't make it out of patch 1.4 without being nerfed in one way or another, even if they decide this 7 range change isn't quite right
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On September 16 2011 12:47 Sedz wrote:
Please stop posting in this thread.
Maybe you should stop posting, because I'm not the one who claimed all Protoss players suck. PvZ winrate on Korean GM ladder is 32%. Obviously, all the Korean grandmaster Protoss players are all terrible. That's the most logical conclusion.
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On September 16 2011 12:51 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:40 Havefa1th wrote:
If you aren't tech switching to colossi while pushing with HT, you're a bad player because if you intend to stay on HT for any extended period of time, you deserve to lose due to the Zerg gaining the correct counters to your build.
And I GUARANTEE you can get colossi out of double robo bays very very fast. And you have feedback with your high templar tech already... why are you complaining?
If you play like that (it's very simple... 2 base hard gateway with HT push into a 3 base double robo colossi) you will beat me and most other Zergs on ladder over 65% of the time, no matter what build we do. I guarantee it.
P.S. You may have 2000 wins on ladder as protoss... you also have like 4000 losses. Jesus, no wonder you're complaining Why should I tech switch to colossus when the Zerg can get out infestors that hard counter them much quicker? You can build an infestation pit and research neural parasite only slightly slower than I can build a robotics bay and get out a single colossus. Getting thermal lances takes even longer. Also, push with HTs? We've already established HTs are garbage against roaches. How am I going to push with them? I'm on the defensive with my HTs because they don't do jack against roaches. A quick third into mass roach is the STANDARD Zerg response to 2-base play, I'm pretty sure I won't get much of anywhere wasting my time with that. Maybe I'll get a few wins against Zerg that neglect to research burrow movement but other than that no. Also no, I don't have twice as many losses as wins, nobody on ladder does, it places you so your win/loss ratio is roughly 1.
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings.
A 6-8 gate +1 HT push (or archons or immortals... whatever you wish) will PUNISH any Zerg that skips roaches and will outright kill any Zerg that has gotten greedy and teched too hard/taken a fast 4th. From there you're free to do exactly what the guy above me said: take another base and go colossi. It's very, very easy to win this way.
And you've won 3 out of your last 10-15 or so... not bothered to look any further than that.
And whoever said that you can't support 6 gates and 2 robos off 3 base is absolutely retarded and needs to go practice some macro more.
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On September 16 2011 13:04 Havefa1th wrote:
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings.
So you don't have enough gas on 3 bases to get infestors, but somehow I have enough gas to get both HTs and colossus? How do you come up with this? My 50 gas stalkers and 100 gas sentries drain a lot more gas than your 25 gas roaches. Come on.
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On September 16 2011 13:09 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 13:04 Havefa1th wrote:
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings. So you don't have enough gas on 3 bases to get infestors, but somehow I have enough gas to get both HTs and colossus? How do you come up with this? My 50 gas stalkers and 100 gas sentries drain a lot more gas than your 25 gas roaches. Come on.
You're suggesting burrow-move roaches with infestors with NP. That's easily equivalent to double robo after HT tech on 3 bases.
I'll give you the roach warren.
Lair: 150/100
Infestation Pit: 100/100
Burrow: 100/100
Roach upgrades: 250/250
Infestor upgrades: 300/300
Total: 900/850
Twilight Council: 150/100
TA: 150/200
Storm: 200/200
Robo bay: 200/200
Robo facility: 200/100
ETL: 200/200
Total: 1100/1000
Nuts and bolts.
We need 2 tech structures and 5 upgrades for the build you're suggesting, + more roaches than you have stalkers to remain competitive. You need 4 tech structures and 2 upgrades to do the build I'm suggesting, no need to get more than 5 sentries than you had in the beginning, and learn to keep HT alive.
If you want to throw out a super gas heavy build order for Zerg, I can throw one out for Protoss.
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On September 16 2011 13:16 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 13:09 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 13:04 Havefa1th wrote:
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings. So you don't have enough gas on 3 bases to get infestors, but somehow I have enough gas to get both HTs and colossus? How do you come up with this? My 50 gas stalkers and 100 gas sentries drain a lot more gas than your 25 gas roaches. Come on. You're suggesting burrow-move roaches with infestors with NP. That's easily equivalent to double robo after HT tech on 3 bases. We need 2 tech structures and 5 upgrades for the build you're suggesting, + more roaches than you have stalkers to remain competitive. You need 4 tech structures and 2 upgrades to do the build I'm suggesting, no need to get more than 5 sentries than you had in the beginning. If you want to throw out a super gas heavy build order for Zerg, I can throw one out for Protoss.
robofac + robobay + lances + council + archives + storm = 1000 gas.
lair + pit + roach speed + burrow move + burrow + glands + parasite = 850 gas.
That's not even counting warpgates or the first robo. Also I need to dump a lot more gas into stalkers and sentries than you need to dump into roaches.
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oh, op, if you were wondering about the change to the contaminate spell, its because they made overseers cheap, so it was done in foresight of people abusing the ability to mass up overseers and contaminate like crazy
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You guys need to stop arguing about some stupid hypothetical situation that will happen once in a blue moon
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On September 16 2011 13:21 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 13:16 Havefa1th wrote:On September 16 2011 13:09 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 13:04 Havefa1th wrote:
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings. So you don't have enough gas on 3 bases to get infestors, but somehow I have enough gas to get both HTs and colossus? How do you come up with this? My 50 gas stalkers and 100 gas sentries drain a lot more gas than your 25 gas roaches. Come on. You're suggesting burrow-move roaches with infestors with NP. That's easily equivalent to double robo after HT tech on 3 bases. We need 2 tech structures and 5 upgrades for the build you're suggesting, + more roaches than you have stalkers to remain competitive. You need 4 tech structures and 2 upgrades to do the build I'm suggesting, no need to get more than 5 sentries than you had in the beginning. If you want to throw out a super gas heavy build order for Zerg, I can throw one out for Protoss. robofac + robobay + lances + council + archives + storm = 1000 gas. lair + pit + roach speed + burrow move + burrow + glands + parasite = 850 gas. That's not even counting warpgates or the first robo. Also I need to dump a lot more gas into stalkers and sentries than you need to dump into roaches.
150 gas is one more fungal. gg
I'm sorry, you get the 5 sentries you made at the beginning to stop my all-in/3 gate expand and I need twice as many roaches as you need stalkers to win. You're not counting warp gate, I'm not counting ling speed and an overseer.
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On September 16 2011 13:24 Havefa1th wrote:
I'm sorry, you get the 5 sentries you made at the beginning to stop my all-in/3 gate expand and I need twice as many roaches as you need stalkers to win. You're not counting warp gate, I'm not counting ling speed and an overseer.
So assuming that's true, because stalkers cost twice the amount of gas as roaches, this is 750 more gas than you need. This is almost three game minutes with six gas geysers!
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On September 16 2011 13:24 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 13:21 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 13:16 Havefa1th wrote:On September 16 2011 13:09 Xequecal wrote:On September 16 2011 13:04 Havefa1th wrote:
You think that there's enough gas on three bases to go infestor, energy upgrade and NP after going mass roach, burrow and burrow movement off 3 base? You haven't played enough Zerg and it explains your ramblings. So you don't have enough gas on 3 bases to get infestors, but somehow I have enough gas to get both HTs and colossus? How do you come up with this? My 50 gas stalkers and 100 gas sentries drain a lot more gas than your 25 gas roaches. Come on. You're suggesting burrow-move roaches with infestors with NP. That's easily equivalent to double robo after HT tech on 3 bases. We need 2 tech structures and 5 upgrades for the build you're suggesting, + more roaches than you have stalkers to remain competitive. You need 4 tech structures and 2 upgrades to do the build I'm suggesting, no need to get more than 5 sentries than you had in the beginning. If you want to throw out a super gas heavy build order for Zerg, I can throw one out for Protoss. robofac + robobay + lances + council + archives + storm = 1000 gas. lair + pit + roach speed + burrow move + burrow + glands + parasite = 850 gas. That's not even counting warpgates or the first robo. Also I need to dump a lot more gas into stalkers and sentries than you need to dump into roaches. 150 gas is one more fungal. gg I'm sorry, you get the 5 sentries you made at the beginning to stop my all-in/3 gate expand and I need twice as many roaches as you need stalkers to win. You're not counting warp gate, I'm not counting ling speed and an overseer.
If you keep going down that line you also have to realize that Zerg will have 6/8/10 gas much much sooner than Protoss will, and vs 3gate expo, a higher drone count as well.
You are comparing Apples to Oranges, different races are different. Just let it go
So assuming that's true, because stalkers cost twice the amount of gas as roaches, this is 750 more gas than you need. This is almost three game minutes with six gas geysers!
Blink Stalkers are much more cost efficient than Roaches, they also have a pretty darn good retention rate as well. 1 to 1, Roach vs Stalker it might be fine, but as soon as blink kicks in the advantage goes to the Protoss...
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On September 16 2011 12:12 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?
No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal.
On September 16 2011 12:29 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 12:16 BeeNu wrote:Alright, well at least you're not at a completely terrible league or anything so I'll give you a bit of credit. But on that same not I still think you have no clue what you're talking about when you say Storm sucks against Roaches. They outheal storm while burrowed. I don't see how you can call storm good against that.
Roaches do not outheal storm while unburrowed. If you have storming HTs, you usually have a main force. You also usually have at least 1 observer with your Powerball, because thats what anyone who isn't braindead does. So assuming you're not, you have an observer. You have armies backing up HTs. Roaches burrow to heal storm in the middle of a fight? lol, there they go dying. Roaches running off to burrow? lol. Giving up positioning to try to heal up.
I'm zerg and I know how shitty (for the zerg) storm is. I made a living off it in gold/plat protoss league by rushing to storm and then just using zealot/stalker/ht to stomp roachers.
On September 16 2011 12:31 Sedz wrote:
I really like the part where blizzard said ' 'We believe that this change will make choices regarding ... unit composition more important when using the infestor'. Zergs really won't be considering a composition change, because nothing but infestor/ling or /infestor/roach > infestor/brood is able to trade cost effectively with a protoss deathball.
exactly, it sadly will not make a difference.
You see, just like how people were complaining that raoches trade efficiently or inefficiently or whatever vs stalkers, roaches do this in small numbers vs small numbers. Lower range and melee units scale worse with the size of the ball,high range units (which stalkers are) scale better.
Additionally, Zerg army is only ~1.2 times or 120% the size of a protoss army. Remember, protoss units are expensive, and have the most damage, and the most health. And an Army that supposed to fight by swarming is only 120% bigger? Anything other than lings takes 2+ supply. The most cost effective supply unit is thus the infestor. You see, zerglings get raped very badly by most protoss units. Stalker and immortal are the only two things they have an advantage against, yet these things usually have Zealots or Colossus with them, instantly destroying zergling masses. The only reason to use zerglings in this case, then, is as a method of distracting shots and surrounding the army (trying to anyway) in order to hold them sttill so your heavy hitters can deal with protoss.
Roach vs Hydra. Think of hydra as paying 25-25 in order to turn the roach from a slightly tanky powerful burst damage but low DPS unit into basically a double health zergling with a lot higher DPS. Thats all well and good, but slow speed gets you killed. Speed and health/armor are opposite ends of the survival spectrum. hydra has neither of these. Still, it only takes the look of a moment to realize that, prior to roach nerfs, you'd be swapping 2 roaches at 16 combined DPS (8 a piece), for 1 hydra at 14.45 DPS.
The hydra, then, was inferior even in beta!! The roach nerf made it marginally more acceptable, but even thing, the thing to think about, is that roaches being nerfed like that took away the only 1 supply single unit zerg had. so, zerg had their army cut by at least 2/5ths, if not potentially right in half.
And you're all surprised that an AoE spamming machine which is expensive is the best answer to a deathball from P?
Infestor will still be used to combat deathballs. it will just be even more skill intensive and require better timing.
so, to beat an A+move ball, Zerg gets nerfs to make it require even more work.
honestly, with regard to blink stalkers vs roaches, they start microing with blink, its a good idea to respond by microing roaches to instant kill stalkers. this prevents them from blinking and makes blink useless, provided you allocate enough roaches to do an instant kill.
other than that, though, mass stalkers gives mass roach the beat down easily. roaches are cost efficient, but not supply efficient. at the upper limit of supply a roach army starts failing miserably.
you learn things like this when you watch replays of P crushing roach based armies in late game that don't have much infestor/corruptor/BL/Ultra help. and yet to add those others is expensive as hell, and they're difficult units to use properly, unlike P units.
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EPT
