• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:00
CEST 18:00
KST 01:00
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War645.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202621Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups $3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
Sagi.gg Launcher Released ChatGPT cheats at StarSkirmish SCAI tournament Rollback Netcode in Brood War BW General Discussion TL Sidebar missing streams
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Semifinal A [ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8026 users

Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 431

Forum Index > Closed
9040 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 429 430 431 432 433 453 Next
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
September 16 2011 03:12 GMT
#8601
On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?


No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 16 2011 03:13 GMT
#8602
On September 16 2011 12:12 Xequecal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?


No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal.


You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right?
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:17:07
September 16 2011 03:14 GMT
#8603
So annoying listening to people speak about SC2 so "matter of factly" as if it were such a simple game.

Assuming the zerg is in an economic lead is still assuming. Every game is different and if you want to work on the assumption that zerg is in the lead and everyone plays perfectly from that point, then what are you trying to argue? That zerg wins every hypothetical game you play out in your head? Congratulations.
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
ScythedBlade
Profile Joined May 2010
308 Posts
September 16 2011 03:16 GMT
#8604
On September 16 2011 12:13 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:12 Xequecal wrote:
On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?


No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal.


You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right?


Nope ...that doesn't work so well unless you have > 3 Collosus, a good amount of immortals, or a nearly equal amount of blink stalkers, providing no fungal growth is nearby ...

Otherwise, infestors by themselves are cost effective, and with roaches, they rape so badly.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 16 2011 03:16 GMT
#8605
On September 16 2011 12:11 Xequecal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 11:59 BeeNu wrote:
I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/514657/1/Xequecal/


Alright, well at least you're not at a completely terrible league or anything so I'll give you a bit of credit.

But on that same not I still think you have no clue what you're talking about when you say Storm sucks against Roaches.
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
September 16 2011 03:16 GMT
#8606
On September 16 2011 12:14 Lomak wrote:
So ignorant listening to people speak about the game so "matter of factly" as if it were such a simple game.

Assuming the zerg is in an economic lead is still assuming. Every game is different and if you want to work on the assumption that zerg is in the lead and everyone plays perfectly from that point, then what are you trying to argue? That zerg wins every hypothetical game you think up of inside your head? Congratulations.


You're a funny guy.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
September 16 2011 03:17 GMT
#8607
On September 16 2011 12:13 BeeNu wrote:

You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right?


And what will I kill them with? The 1.75 speed templar that are still half the map away? Not to mention, what am I going to use to detect them? The 1.75 speed observers that are also half the map away? Roaches move at hellion speed on creep, it's trivial for them to gain enough distance to heal up. You're not going to kill many in the two seconds it takes for them to burrow under your trapping forcefields.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
September 16 2011 03:18 GMT
#8608
On September 16 2011 12:16 ScythedBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:13 BeeNu wrote:
On September 16 2011 12:12 Xequecal wrote:
On September 16 2011 12:00 Narw wrote:
It's trash becouse roaches dont get one shotted like marines do?


No, its trash because roaches can burrow heal to full in seconds, and are faster than every Protoss unit so they can easily escape to heal.


You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right?


Nope ...that doesn't work so well unless you have > 3 Collosus, a good amount of immortals, or a nearly equal amount of blink stalkers, providing no fungal growth is nearby ...

Otherwise, infestors by themselves are cost effective, and with roaches, they rape so badly.


oh ok just create hypothetical scenarios that make it impossible for you to ever do anything.

rofl
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:20:01
September 16 2011 03:19 GMT
#8609
On September 16 2011 12:17 Xequecal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:13 BeeNu wrote:

You do realize that if they stop to burrow heal you can just stomp them with the rest of your army right?


And what will I kill them with? The 1.75 speed templar that are still half the map away? Not to mention, what am I going to use to detect them? The 1.75 speed observers that are also half the map away? Roaches move at hellion speed on creep, it's trivial for them to gain enough distance to heal up. You're not going to kill many in the two seconds it takes for them to burrow under your trapping forcefields.


You could kill them with your army perhaps?

How fast are you trying to rush to High Templar anyways? Doesn't it make more logical sense to make HT after you've already got a few Colossus out and have Detection? Shouldn't you have an army by this time?

wtf, I don't know how I can even debate with you people
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
September 16 2011 03:21 GMT
#8610
On September 16 2011 12:19 BeeNu wrote:

How fast are you trying to rush to High Templar anyways? Doesn't it make more logical sense to make HT after you've already got a few Colossus out and have Detection? Shouldn't you have an army by this time?

wtf, I don't know how I can even debate with you people


I have colossus now? I wasn't aware of that, I said storm sucks against roaches. I don't recall saying colossus suck against them. Maybe you should stop moving the goalposts.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:26:56
September 16 2011 03:24 GMT
#8611
On September 16 2011 12:21 Xequecal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:19 BeeNu wrote:

How fast are you trying to rush to High Templar anyways? Doesn't it make more logical sense to make HT after you've already got a few Colossus out and have Detection? Shouldn't you have an army by this time?

wtf, I don't know how I can even debate with you people


I have colossus now? I wasn't aware of that, I said storm sucks against roaches. I don't recall saying colossus suck against them. Maybe you should stop moving the goalposts.


siiiiiiiiiiigh

dude, you have to actually to try and use some logic on your own without me having to spell out every little detail for you. Why would you go straight to HT with skipping Robo tech? that makes 0 sense at all, there is no synergy with your army that way. What, are you actually going to get Chargelots and Blink Stalkers and then sloooow High Templar? Yeesh. The simple thought of that is so ludicrous I honestly didn't think you naturally would be assuming such a thing in the first place, I guess I expected too much.

I also DID specifically say earlier that HT aren't exactly something you just rush to, it makes for a powerful ADDITION to your army once you can afford them. And there is no reason not to be casting Storm on Roaches just because it doesn't instantly fry them the way it does to Lings and Marines.
TheDraken
Profile Joined July 2011
United States640 Posts
September 16 2011 03:29 GMT
#8612
On September 16 2011 12:16 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:11 Xequecal wrote:
On September 16 2011 11:59 BeeNu wrote:
I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/514657/1/Xequecal/


Alright, well at least you're not at a completely terrible league or anything so I'll give you a bit of credit.

But on that same not I still think you have no clue what you're talking about when you say Storm sucks against Roaches.



They outheal storm while burrowed. I don't see how you can call storm good against that.
fast food. y u no make me fast? <( ಠ益ಠ <)
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 16 2011 03:29 GMT
#8613
^ yea dude I disagree with you. Storm is pretty bad against roaches, it's what he makes with the storm that can make it extremely deadly.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Sedz
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:32:48
September 16 2011 03:31 GMT
#8614
I really like the part where blizzard said ' 'We believe that this change will make choices regarding ... unit composition more important when using the infestor'. Zergs really won't be considering a composition change, because nothing but infestor/ling or /infestor/roach > infestor/brood is able to trade cost effectively with a protoss deathball.
AsGSedZ.549
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:32:09
September 16 2011 03:31 GMT
#8615
double post
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
September 16 2011 03:32 GMT
#8616
On September 16 2011 12:24 BeeNu wrote:
dude, you have to actually to try and use some logic on your own without me having to spell out every little detail for you. Why would you go straight to HT with skipping Robo tech? that makes 0 sense at all, there is no synergy with your army that way. What, are you actually going to get Chargelots and Blink Stalkers and then sloooow High Templar? Yeesh. The simple thought of that is so ludicrous I honestly didn't think you naturally would be assuming such a thing in the first place, I guess I expected too much.


I skip colossus because infestors hard-counter them, well at least the old NP infestors do. That was the whole point from the start. I feel like I'm just going in circles here. Zerg can't have an effective colossus counter because roaches outright slaughter any Protoss composition that doesn't include them. You can't rebut this point by assuming the Protoss suddenly has colossus in his army.

If you give Zerg an effective colossi counter like they have now, you get the <30% winrate in PvZ. New GSL Code S is 10 Terran, 5 Zerg, 1 Protoss. I have plenty of evidence showing Zerg are shitting all over Protoss in general, and it's because Infestors, like Ghosts, are a horrifically overpowered anti-everything unit in the matchup. Infestors counter EVERYTHING, and Protoss simply loses the game once Zerg reaches 15-20 of them.

And seriously, get both HTs AND colossus? Have you ever played Protoss? That's literally 1000 gas spent on tech and tech buildings that doesn't shoot at the enemy. Sure, I might do that late game once I've taken a fourth base, but it's not something you can survive the midgame or even early late game on.
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:35:29
September 16 2011 03:34 GMT
#8617
On September 16 2011 12:24 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:21 Xequecal wrote:
On September 16 2011 12:19 BeeNu wrote:

How fast are you trying to rush to High Templar anyways? Doesn't it make more logical sense to make HT after you've already got a few Colossus out and have Detection? Shouldn't you have an army by this time?

wtf, I don't know how I can even debate with you people


I have colossus now? I wasn't aware of that, I said storm sucks against roaches. I don't recall saying colossus suck against them. Maybe you should stop moving the goalposts.


siiiiiiiiiiigh

dude, you have to actually to try and use some logic on your own without me having to spell out every little detail for you. Why would you go straight to HT with skipping Robo tech? that makes 0 sense at all, there is no synergy with your army that way. What, are you actually going to get Chargelots and Blink Stalkers and then sloooow High Templar? Yeesh. The simple thought of that is so ludicrous I honestly didn't think you naturally would be assuming such a thing in the first place, I guess I expected too much.

I also DID specifically say earlier that HT aren't exactly something you just rush to, it makes for a powerful ADDITION to your army once you can afford them. And there is no reason not to be casting Storm on Roaches just because it doesn't instantly fry them the way it does to Lings and Marines.


Why would I spent 50/150 on an HT being able to cast one storm that can be dodged, let alone the tech cost, when I can just continue producing colossi instead that do their own splash damage as long as they want from far away?
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 04:21:39
September 16 2011 03:35 GMT
#8618
hy would you go straight to HT with skipping Robo tech? that makes 0 sense at all, there is no synergy with your army that way. What, are you actually going to get Chargelots and Blink Stalkers and then sloooow High Templar? Yeesh. The simple thought of that is so ludicrous I honestly didn't think you naturally would be assuming such a thing in the first place, I guess I expected too much.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

That is exactly how JYP plays in his PvZ and it is freaking amazing. Mind you he also does things like Templar drops as well, but it is strong style if you have the APM

Why would I spent 50/150 on an HT being able to cast one storm that can be dodged, let alone the tech cost, when I can just continue producing colossi instead that do their own splash damage as long as they want from far away?


Because Storm stacks on top of Colosuss? lol? There is no reason to not get both Templar and Colossus if you are on 3/4 Bases.

I don't understand how you can just go Colossus , Templar + Colossus is stronger than just one of them by themselves.

Besides, once you get past 5-6 Colossus they start bumping into each other and take up too much supply from your meaty gateway army + also makes them easy targets for NP.

Archon/Templar Tech is just too good to not get, especially Archons--they are sooo supply efficient
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-16 03:38:20
September 16 2011 03:37 GMT
#8619
On September 16 2011 12:16 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2011 12:11 Xequecal wrote:
On September 16 2011 11:59 BeeNu wrote:
I would like to confirm your credibility good sir. Please, provide a link to your profile so I may believe your outrageous claims.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/514657/1/Xequecal/


Alright, well at least you're not at a completely terrible league or anything so I'll give you a bit of credit.

But on that same note I still think you have no clue what you're talking about when you say Storm sucks against Roaches.

You obviously won't understand if you don't play protoss.

Sedz
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia123 Posts
September 16 2011 03:38 GMT
#8620
On September 16 2011 12:32 Xequecal wrote:


I skip colossus because infestors hard-counter them, well at least the old NP infestors do. That was the whole point from the start. I feel like I'm just going in circles here. Zerg can't have an effective colossus counter because roaches outright slaughter any Protoss composition that doesn't include them. You can't rebut this point by assuming the Protoss suddenly has colossus in his army.

If you give Zerg an effective colossi counter like they have now, you get the <30% winrate in PvZ. New GSL Code S is 10 Terran, 5 Zerg, 1 Protoss. I have plenty of evidence showing Zerg are shitting all over Protoss in general, and it's because Infestors, like Ghosts, are a horrifically overpowered anti-everything unit in the matchup. Infestors counter EVERYTHING, and Protoss simply loses the game once Zerg reaches 15-20 of them.

And seriously, get both HTs AND colossus? Have you ever played Protoss? That's literally 1000 gas spent on tech and tech buildings that doesn't shoot at the enemy. Sure, I might do that late game once I've taken a fourth base, but it's not something you can survive the midgame or even early late game on.


I really think you have no idea what you're talking about. Infestor's do not 'hard-counter' colossi. Fungal works great against deathballs because most protoss can't micro and NP works great against colossi because most protoss can't micro. Our only hard-counter to the colossi is a horrible 2 supply unit that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas that doesn't even do what it's designed to do effectively, therefore we need something else to counteract this.

Also, if you are trying to argue that only one protoss qualifying for Code S is a byproduct of the zvp metagame at the moment then you'd be completely wrong and should stop.

I also lol'd at 'horrifically overpowered'

AsGSedZ.549
Prev 1 429 430 431 432 433 453 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
00:00
Patch Clash S1 Special #1
RotterdaM680
IndyStarCraft 155
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 680
Reynor 312
ByuN 256
TKL 244
IndyStarCraft 155
Railgan 72
Codebar 56
BRAT_OK 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 55650
Bisu 2892
Calm 2413
FanTaSy 946
Stork 602
Rush 470
hero 322
firebathero 162
actioN 138
Sharp 104
[ Show more ]
Free 52
ToSsGirL 40
Pusan 32
Mong 30
Rock 25
soO 23
Sexy 19
Aegong 17
Hm[arnc] 17
Terrorterran 17
HiyA 16
Noble 13
scan(afreeca) 10
Sacsri 9
IntoTheRainbow 7
Dota 2
Gorgc10124
Dendi1087
Counter-Strike
fl0m4492
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King72
Heroes of the Storm
MindelVK5
Other Games
singsing2156
Liquid`RaSZi1595
B2W.Neo711
Beastyqt627
olofmeister546
Mlord490
Khaldor413
KnowMe303
crisheroes175
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV276
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 10
• Hinosc 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• Reevou 0
StarCraft: Brood War
• FT.aCt)Sony5
• niya90s 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV526
League of Legends
• Nemesis3215
Counter-Strike
• C_a_k_e 1551
Other Games
• Shiphtur440
Upcoming Events
BSL Open Qualifier
3h
BSL Open Qualifier
3h
OSC
7h
Replay Cast
7h
OSC
20h
WardiTV Weekly
1d 19h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.