EPTBecause of how bad storm is against roaches, Protoss cannot use templar as their AE unit. They must use colossus. If colossi can be easily taken away by NP, what can Protoss possibly do? Feedback is a marginal infestor counter at best but even if you consider it a good counter, is Protoss supposed to make stalkers, sentries, colossi, AND templar? Where are they going to get the gas for that? And yes you need sentries, it is fairly easy to beat stalker/colossus with just pure roach if they don't have sentries.
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 429
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Because of how bad storm is against roaches, Protoss cannot use templar as their AE unit. They must use colossus. If colossi can be easily taken away by NP, what can Protoss possibly do? Feedback is a marginal infestor counter at best but even if you consider it a good counter, is Protoss supposed to make stalkers, sentries, colossi, AND templar? Where are they going to get the gas for that? And yes you need sentries, it is fairly easy to beat stalker/colossus with just pure roach if they don't have sentries. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:57 Xequecal wrote: You guys are completely missing the point here. Zerg can't be given an efficient colossus counter. It can only have inefficient ones. Colossi and immortals are the only units Protoss has that can beat roaches. Roaches are a straight-up hard counter to basically every Protoss unit or combination of units except immortals and colossi, and immortals aren't that good against them either.. That's ridiculous. 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. Sentries in the mix can all but guarantee that not a single blink stalker will be lost vs roaches. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:57 Xequecal wrote: You guys are completely missing the point here. Zerg can't be given an efficient colossus counter. It can only have inefficient ones. Colossi and immortals are the only units Protoss has that can beat roaches. Roaches are a straight-up hard counter to basically every Protoss unit or combination of units except immortals and colossi, and immortals aren't that good against them either. Because of how bad storm is against roaches, Protoss cannot use templar as their AE unit. They must use colossus. If colossi can be easily taken away by NP, what can Protoss possibly do? Feedback is a marginal infestor counter at best but even if you consider it a good counter, is Protoss supposed to make stalkers, sentries, colossi, AND templar? Where are they going to get the gas for that? And yes you need sentries, it is fairly easy to beat stalker/colossus with just pure roach if they don't have sentries. Nope. Even just Gateway units can handle Roaches as long as you know how to properly use Force Field or Blink. Storm is bad against Roaches? are you kidding me? No. Oh you have to make Stalkers, Sentry, Colossi and Templar? Oh my! Zerg has to make Roaches, Infestors, and Corruptors then Broodlords, where am I going to get the gas from that? Oh right, you mine it like everyone else. | ||
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:59 Nemireck wrote: That's ridiculous. 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. Sentries in the mix can all but guarantee that not a single blink stalker will be lost vs roaches. I think hes talking about cost effeiciency not supply. 20 blink stalkers dont beat about 35 (rough guess) speed roaches especially when it gets to later in the game when stalkers may be 3-3-1 or 3-3-0 to the roach 3-3 who scale better with upgrades. | ||
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phathom321
United States1730 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:59 Nemireck wrote: 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. The blink is the key part there. A 150/150 upgrade that is now going to take a bit longer to research. Plus two roaches equal ONE stalker. Even if all the roaches die, they should get at least half of the stalkers. | ||
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Ripper41
284 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:59 Nemireck wrote: That's ridiculous. 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. Sentries in the mix can all but guarantee that not a single blink stalker will be lost vs roaches. how much does each of those compositions cost in total? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:59 Nemireck wrote: That's ridiculous. 20 blink stalkers can kill 20 roaches incredibly efficiently. Sentries in the mix can all but guarantee that not a single blink stalker will be lost vs roaches. Uhm, you are aware that stalkers cost double what roaches do, right? The 6-gate blink timings take advantage of the fact that it's difficult for Zerg to get enough larva to saturate a third and get out roaches. 40 roaches easily beat 20 blink stalkers, and as the respective numbers increase and blink micro gets harder it just gets worse from there. 70 roaches vs 40 blink stalkers is not a contest, it's a slaughter. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:03 BeeNu wrote: Nope. Even just Gateway units can handle Roaches as long as you know how to properly use Force Field or Blink. Storm is bad against Roaches? are you kidding me? No. Oh you have to make Stalkers, Sentry, Colossi and Templar? Oh my! Zerg has to make Roaches, Infestors, and Corruptors then Broodlords, where am I going to get the gas from that? Oh right, you mine it like everyone else. Yes, storm is awful against roaches. It doesn't do anything. You make them storm, then retreat and burrow to full hp in 5 seconds. Make them storm again, retreat and burrow. Oh look they're out of energy, slaughter them. You can't even hope to trap roaches with FF because they can go under it. On creep burrowed roaches actually move faster than observers so you can't even hope to pick many off with this strat, they quickly outrun your detection. | ||
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Zahki
Australia61 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:15 Xequecal wrote: Yes, storm is awful against roaches. It doesn't do anything. You make them storm, then retreat and burrow to full hp in 5 seconds. Make them storm again, retreat and burrow. Oh look they're out of energy, slaughter them. You can't even hope to trap roaches with FF because they can go under it. On creep burrowed roaches actually move faster than observers so you can't even hope to pick many off with this strat, they quickly outrun your detection. Storm is amazing against Roaches, it slaughters them, you can see it used to great effect in tons of pro PvZs, dunno who you're trying to convince here. Also Observers have a speed upgrade, speed upgraded observers can keep up with burrowed roaches easy, if Zerg is using that tactic then that upgrade nullifies it 100%. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:15 Xequecal wrote: Yes, storm is awful against roaches. It doesn't do anything. You make them storm, then retreat and burrow to full hp in 5 seconds. Make them storm again, retreat and burrow. Oh look they're out of energy, slaughter them. You can't even hope to trap roaches with FF because they can go under it. On creep burrowed roaches actually move faster than observers so you can't even hope to pick many off with this strat, they quickly outrun your detection. If the Zerg has the option to retreat then Storm isn't that great vs Roaches  But in a battle where a Zerg is committing to an engagement Storm is amazing. Obviously it isn't as good as a few Colossus against Roaches, but Storm + Colossus is better than just Storm or just Colossus  Storm is amazing against Roaches, it slaughters them, you can see it used to great effect in tons of pro PvZs, dunno who you're trying to convince here. Also Observers have a speed upgrade, speed upgraded observers can keep up with burrowed roaches easy, if Zerg is using that tactic then that upgrade nullifies it 100%. 1. A regular observer can keep up with burrowed Roaches 2. Templars can't chase :o | ||
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Zahki
Australia61 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:24 Dommk wrote: 1. A regular observer can keep up with burrowed Roaches 2. Templars can't chase :o 1. Not according to the guy above. 2. They don't need to. You don't need to waste storms on Burrowed roaches.  If the Zerg is just running away from the storms go around and snipe their expos, either you'll force them to engage or you'll get a ton of free expo kills, easy. | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:24 Zahki wrote: Storm is amazing against Roaches, it slaughters them, you can see it used to great effect in tons of pro PvZs, dunno who you're trying to convince here. Also Observers have a speed upgrade, speed upgraded observers can keep up with burrowed roaches easy, if Zerg is using that tactic then that upgrade nullifies it 100%. which pro uses storm against roaches...? | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
If the Zerg is just running away from the storms go around and snipe their expos, either you'll force them to engage or you'll get a ton of free expo kills, easy. And get surrounded by ling/Infestor and lose lol... Engaging Zerg on Creep is not easy as Protoss. Though the guy has a point, High Templars are significantly better defensively than offensively (where as Colossus tend to be just as good on the offensive). You can't exactly hope to "kill" the Zerg if you open High Templar, almost always you just use them to transition into a macro game and get more bases, the units are soo slow and landing Storms is much easier when the enemy is the one trying to bust through a choke rather than you having to move your entire ball through creep with the Templars slowing it down to a crawl | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:24 Dommk wrote: 1. A regular observer can keep up with burrowed Roaches 2. Templars can't chase :o Observers and templars have the same move speed. | ||
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Havefa1th
United States245 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:15 Xequecal wrote: Yes, storm is awful against roaches. It doesn't do anything. You make them storm, then retreat and burrow to full hp in 5 seconds. Make them storm again, retreat and burrow. Oh look they're out of energy, slaughter them. You can't even hope to trap roaches with FF because they can go under it. On creep burrowed roaches actually move faster than observers so you can't even hope to pick many off with this strat, they quickly outrun your detection. Burrow and burrow movement are a big investment, and signals the mid game tech they're committing to. If you're continuing to press against burrowed roaches (which are the correct counter to sentry and HT heavy gateway armies) then you're just a bad player. Once you see burrow, back up, stalker up and tech switch. Against regular roaches, stalker heavy armies plus storm and FF's tear roaches up. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:35 Havefa1th wrote: Burrow and burrow movement are a big investment, and signals the mid game tech they're committing to. If you're continuing to press against burrowed roaches (which are the correct counter to sentry and HT heavy gateway armies) then you're just a bad player. Once you see burrow, back up, stalker up and tech switch. Against regular roaches, stalker heavy armies plus storm and FF's tear roaches up. Tech switch to what? Colossus? With the old NP that's right out, it takes a hell of a lot longer for me to get colossus than it takes for him to get infestors to counter. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:34 Xequecal wrote: Observers and templars have the same move speed. Ever tried to Storm an army that is running away? Yeah, you end up eating more of the Storm than enemy does :/ | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:24 Zahki wrote: Storm is amazing against Roaches, it slaughters them, you can see it used to great effect in tons of pro PvZs, dunno who you're trying to convince here. Also Observers have a speed upgrade, speed upgraded observers can keep up with burrowed roaches easy, if Zerg is using that tactic then that upgrade nullifies it 100%. Link to said pro games where protoss used storm against roaches to win when he wasn't already in a massive lead. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:40 Dommk wrote: Ever tried to Storm an army that is running away? Yeah, you end up eating more of the Storm than enemy does :/ You don't have to 1A your army into the storm bro. I'd love to see a replay of yours where you use storm though now that you mention it. For the lulz. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:40 Heavenly wrote: Link to said pro games where protoss used storm against roaches to win when he wasn't already in a massive lead. If you want to see good templar control watch Minigun, He's got some of the best templar control out there. | ||
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