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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Right. Lots of people think a t1 spellcaster is pretty broken. I don't think they are, but it could be. Hence, my post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258724¤tpage=256#5111
Dang... I may have misparaphrased you again. I stated that you said Colossus countered everything... when in reality, you simply stated that Zerg had no counter to it. My sincerest apologies. Would you like me to edit my post to quote you as saying "Zerg has no fucking counter to colossi?"
But I'm not writing an academic paper. I'm just a fan compiling your thoughts. If you want to see what you've written, just click on your profile, click posts, then search through your posts to see your thoughts on various balance topics.
Right... besides NP, Zerg has no counter to NP. Baneling rain can be a counter, but has a lot of issues.
Keep trolling. I've had many more people say they agree with what I said then just troll me by saying ridiculous things. Maybe it's because... hmm, you guys are biased Protoss and I'm a biased Zerg? Nah, you guys are the truth right? Keep flaming right?
My only balance complaint is if NP is removed.
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On September 16 2011 04:57 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:41 Telenil wrote:How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks. You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it. Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"? My reasoning behind that statement is that I can't fathom being able to get NP off on Colossus with only 7 range, even 9 range takes good positioning and timing to pull off. The massive disparity between 7 range and the Siege Tank range of 13 means Infestors will be incredibly easy to pick off with Tanks in any Mech push. The reason I think this is worse than removing it from massive is that now it's just about as bad vs Massive and even worse against everything else. The only thing I can think of that this does really help a bit is against Archons.
Well that depends on if you think that should be an easy thing to do or not. I kind of feel like taking 300/200/6 of your opponents army and turning it against them should be difficult to pull off. If you feel it is essential because that is the only way you can defeat colossus (I would dispute this claim) then the range probably needed to stay at 9. It really depends on what its intended goal is.
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On September 16 2011 05:28 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 04:57 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 04:41 Telenil wrote:How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks. You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it. Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"? My reasoning behind that statement is that I can't fathom being able to get NP off on Colossus with only 7 range, even 9 range takes good positioning and timing to pull off. The massive disparity between 7 range and the Siege Tank range of 13 means Infestors will be incredibly easy to pick off with Tanks in any Mech push. The reason I think this is worse than removing it from massive is that now it's just about as bad vs Massive and even worse against everything else. The only thing I can think of that this does really help a bit is against Archons. Well that depends on if you think that should be an easy thing to do or not. I kind of feel like taking 300/200/6 of your opponents army and turning it against them should be difficult to pull off. If you feel it is essential because that is the only way you can defeat colossus (I would dispute this claim) then the range probably needed to stay at 9. It really depends on what its intended goal is.
If you don't think it was already fairly difficult to pull off then you probably haven't tried doing it.
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Just remove it, purpose still defeated. With a small amount of colossus it might be able to NP some with 7 range.
But with a couple of colossus together with forcefield, the protoss needs to stop microing completly and actually tab down and browse Zerg whine topics, so the Neural has a chance to hit.
FF + 2 more range on colossus = dead infestors and not a single succesfull neural.
I honestly cant believe that any Protoss would welcome this joke, seeing as before it was good micro needed to defeat NP, but it was definetly possible, now there barely micro needed to stomp it.
PS: i play all 3 races and Nerfing NP in the ground while not touching the ghost is so far beyond a bad joke
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On September 16 2011 05:35 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:28 MattyClutch wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 04:41 Telenil wrote:How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks. You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it. Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"? My reasoning behind that statement is that I can't fathom being able to get NP off on Colossus with only 7 range, even 9 range takes good positioning and timing to pull off. The massive disparity between 7 range and the Siege Tank range of 13 means Infestors will be incredibly easy to pick off with Tanks in any Mech push. The reason I think this is worse than removing it from massive is that now it's just about as bad vs Massive and even worse against everything else. The only thing I can think of that this does really help a bit is against Archons. Well that depends on if you think that should be an easy thing to do or not. I kind of feel like taking 300/200/6 of your opponents army and turning it against them should be difficult to pull off. If you feel it is essential because that is the only way you can defeat colossus (I would dispute this claim) then the range probably needed to stay at 9. It really depends on what its intended goal is. If you don't think it was already fairly difficult to pull off then you probably haven't tried doing it.
As I said before, I don't think its that much more difficult than moving a HT out to try and stop said infestor. Fungals aoe nature gave it an edge on feedback not to mention templar are horribly slow. All this reminds me of the "templar are ruined! you will never see storm! how will we deal with drops?!" gloom and doom with the amulet removal. It all ended up being a nerf, but hardly a crippling one.
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On September 16 2011 05:39 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 05:28 MattyClutch wrote:On September 16 2011 04:57 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 04:41 Telenil wrote:How does this "soften" the nerf? It's just as bad if not worse than removing it from massive. Colossus will still be untouchable and Mech pushes will be about as untouchable now due to how massively out-ranged Infestors will be by Siege Tanks. You could not use neural parasite colossi and archons (and thors and battlecruisers...) at all. Now you can, even if it will be harder -or much harder as far as colossi are concerned- to do it. Come on, how could "difficult" be worse than "impossible"? My reasoning behind that statement is that I can't fathom being able to get NP off on Colossus with only 7 range, even 9 range takes good positioning and timing to pull off. The massive disparity between 7 range and the Siege Tank range of 13 means Infestors will be incredibly easy to pick off with Tanks in any Mech push. The reason I think this is worse than removing it from massive is that now it's just about as bad vs Massive and even worse against everything else. The only thing I can think of that this does really help a bit is against Archons. Well that depends on if you think that should be an easy thing to do or not. I kind of feel like taking 300/200/6 of your opponents army and turning it against them should be difficult to pull off. If you feel it is essential because that is the only way you can defeat colossus (I would dispute this claim) then the range probably needed to stay at 9. It really depends on what its intended goal is. If you don't think it was already fairly difficult to pull off then you probably haven't tried doing it. As I said before, I don't think its that much more difficult than moving a HT out to try and stop said infestor. Fungals aoe nature gave it an edge on feedback not to mention templar are horribly slow. All this reminds me of the "templar are ruined! you will never see storm! how will we deal with drops?!" gloom and doom with the amulet removal. It all ended up being a nerf, but hardly a crippling one.
Well don't worry, you won't really have to be concerned with using High Templar any more since you can just mass Cololsuss again.
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Np range of 7 makes it much easier for stalkers to blink in from outside fungal range to snipe the controlling infestors. Fortunately we don't need to worry about that because the infestors will have to move into range of the stalkers anyway to get a NP off.
Nor will I have to worry about nping a ghost to use emp any more, which is a real weight off my mind.
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On September 16 2011 05:19 Firekidt wrote:
About time. As a protoss, I was getting tired of having to micro.
Before you act silly, change the icon. I see you're new here.
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The decreased range on NP is going to hurt endgame ZvZ. Now it's just get BL+Infestor = GG since you can't NP the BL outside of their infestors range anymore.
It's also pretty stupid for PvZ. Don't need to explain why. Did Blizzard like what happened with the infestor on PTR or something?
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On September 16 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:
The decreased range on NP is going to hurt endgame ZvZ. Now it's just get BL+Infestor = GG since you can't NP the BL outside of their infestors range anymore.
It's also pretty stupid for PvZ. Don't need to explain why. Did Blizzard like what happened with the infestor on PTR or something?
I think they want Protoss to win more PvZs. This should help no?
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On September 16 2011 04:56 CursedRich wrote:
I like that fact that now if we see the pro's win big decisive battles with NP it will be a matter of skill, fair play Blizz
I like that fact that now if we see the pro's win big decisive battles with thermal colossus it will be a matter of skill. Whoups. We know that it's not true. We can all agree that there's no skill in making 4colossus. They leave us with 3options assuming the protoss is not bad and that we couldn't killed him with some sort of all in.
There is corruptors. I don't think I'm wrong when I say that corruptors are a terrible unit, non cost effective and one dimensionnal.
Massing roachs/infestors with a lot of fungals + IT. It could work, but it will be much harder without NP.
Or just mass muta. Mutaling all the way babe.
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On September 16 2011 06:04 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:
The decreased range on NP is going to hurt endgame ZvZ. Now it's just get BL+Infestor = GG since you can't NP the BL outside of their infestors range anymore.
It's also pretty stupid for PvZ. Don't need to explain why. Did Blizzard like what happened with the infestor on PTR or something? I think they want Protoss to win more PvZs. This should help no?
you misunderstand, they don't want Protoss to win, they just want Zerg to lose.
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I'd prefer if NP did not work on any unit at all except Colossi (maybe VR too) than the proposed changes. The whole point of NP is to deal with Colossi and 1a deathballs, and with NP and infestors they are still incredibly hard to deal with.
I think they want Protoss to win more PvZs. This should help no?
On the ladder Protoss is doing just fine in PvZ. In the GSL there are huge sampling issues (largely, Genius/MC/Huk/Alicia/Puzzle were eliminated by Terrans, and then Nestea and Losira vs the lower level Protoss).
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On September 16 2011 06:13 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:04 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:
The decreased range on NP is going to hurt endgame ZvZ. Now it's just get BL+Infestor = GG since you can't NP the BL outside of their infestors range anymore.
It's also pretty stupid for PvZ. Don't need to explain why. Did Blizzard like what happened with the infestor on PTR or something? I think they want Protoss to win more PvZs. This should help no? you misunderstand, they don't want Protoss to win, they just want Zerg to lose.
They've been buffing Zerg since release actually. This is one of the few nerfs they've ever received.
On the ladder Protoss is doing just fine in PvZ. In the GSL there are huge sampling issues (largely, Genius/MC/Huk/Alicia/Puzzle were eliminated by Terrans, and then Nestea and Losira vs the lower level Protoss).
Only Blizzard knows the ladder stats, not that they matter. In tournaments Korean Zergs have been owning it up for a while in ZvP.
It's pretty well accepted that toss is struggling against Zerg lately. Say it's a metagame issue if you want, but denying the obvious is just silly.
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This is coming from a high EU masters zerg.
This is almost just as bad as the previous nerf, the only differance is that NP might be usefull with mass archon/zealot. Other than that it will have NO use att alll, even when NP had range 9 they could still get sniped by blink stalkers or by collosi with a little micro. Now when NP got just 1 more range than immortal/stalkers and same range as thors they will die ONE second after they get within range, if the enemy even TRIES to micro the infestors will INSTANTLY die.
I see no reason at all now to actually research NP vs anything so they might aswell remove it, id rather fungal vs zealot/archon anyway.
I see no viable counter vs collosi now and toss can comfortably turtle to a deathball again, and no i dont count corrupter as a counte
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the problem really is how fucking terrible and boring the corrupter is
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On September 16 2011 06:19 Rizell wrote:
I see no viable counter vs collosi now and toss can comfortably turtle to a deathball again, and no i dont count corrupter as a counte
I keep hearing that, but I didn't see that many high level ZvPs that were actually deathball vs infestor and the game was won by NP and would have been completely lost without it. Have any links?
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On September 16 2011 06:22 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:19 Rizell wrote:
I see no viable counter vs collosi now and toss can comfortably turtle to a deathball again, and no i dont count corrupter as a counte I keep hearing that, but I didn't see that many high level ZvPs that were actually deathball vs infestor and the game was won by NP and would have been completely lost without it. Have any links?
I would guess because Protoss metagame isnt at the point of the "old deathball" of roach/hydra/corruptor times, cause we learned to counter that with infestor, and/or banelings., therefore once a number of infestors is fielded, it would be stupid to continue building that colossus ball.
Nerf Np in the ground like they are planning and we will be able to see it again as relying on banelings is always a gamble...
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Not at all understanding the NP nerf. NP was fairly balanced as it was.
PvZ NP was potentially dangerous against a medium sized army, but was still manageable with good positioning, FF, blink micro etc. NP was never particularly useful against a massive deathball. TvZ it was only useful in specific situations. Now NP will have very little use.
Pretty poor balancing IMHO. Making abilities or units less used, the game less diverse, and reducing the micro or depth of gameplay is not a good thing. NP, a more interesting and micro intensive spell will not be used. And there will be more mindless spam of FG and IT.
More often than not it seems that Blizzard does random things which dumbs the game down. Which is not good for the longevity of the game, or the game as an Esport.
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^ Watch any Destiny ZvP, particularly Destiny vs Combatex. There's just loads of VODs where C-ex says "LOL IMMA MAKE DEATHBALL, BE BACK IN 10". Prepatch, he always won doing this too, post-patch, destiny trashed him.
There's also a popular VOD of Combat-ex explaining how to troll or something, it's probably his most popular vod, and he makes a deathball. The zerg actually ends up killing his deathball, but combat-ex had taken like 12 bases against 2 base zerg and was trolling him hardcore, I think he cheesed him and all sorts of nasty stuff so it didn't matter in the end. But you can tell he goes like "oh shit..." which is hilarious, because he totally didn't expect it, bu combat has too many bases too lose.
Then any cruncher vod really.
I've never seen deathball in the GSL, surprisingly. I think I saw it once, and it was a weird game and Zerg already lost it, but he was supposed to actually win it but he threw it away (it was GSTL, and the zerg's team literally got up and cheered because they thought the game was over). I think it was Leenock? But key word he lost, so no NP there.
I believe Sen and a lot of the koreans go baneling rain, like DRG. I'm not sure what VODs to link with that.
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EPT
