|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 16 2011 00:36 Perscienter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:23 Sm3agol wrote:On September 16 2011 00:18 Perscienter wrote:
I was random and again the horrible changes are as numerous as the reasonable ones.
Neural Parasite's purpose was to parasite important units. The low time it persisted was already outrageous. The Hellions never lived up to their role as a replacement for the Vulture. Instead of adjusting it in another way, their only idea is another damage nerf. Again, the same patch pattern, again it just becomes more boring.
The Cloaking Field lag is ridiculous and shows, that Blizzard lacks programming skills.
Furthermore two APM values should be recorded. A raw one and an efficient.
Again, there a lot of necessary adjustments, but Blizzard keeps throwing in bad and unimaginative balance changes. People. Please think for a moment before spouting random accusations. You just said Blizzard sucks at programming......Really? It's things like this, that pretty much negates anything and everything else you say. Programming games like this is NOT easy to start with, and considering how bug-free SC2 is, it's just amazing that you would even think this. Then why do they not let that darn thing and the effect pre-load or design it in a way, that that wouldn't be necessary? A balance adjustment born out of the necessity to fix a ram-management issue... just horrible.
It does pre-load, it requires re-rendering the graphic of all of your probes and buildings.
It's not a ram-management issue.
It is NOT a balance change... how could you even think this
|
On September 16 2011 00:44 LoveCrashes wrote:
Just curious, when do you think they are going to drop this patch, I'm excited for the changes that they've added, not to mention some of the simple UI stuff.
After they removed the NP change.
For the rest of the patch, I really want to try it out on the live servers aswell. Probably will take atleast 1-2 weeks?
|
On September 16 2011 00:14 Asday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:11 Condor Hero wrote:On September 16 2011 00:09 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd. No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells. Since EMP is instant, I'm thinking that EMP should have a timer where multiple EMPs aren't useful within a certain amount of time (say, like 5 secs consecutive EMPs don't work on units already hit with it) might go a long way to helping Protoss deal with mass Ghost in late game. That was in the game before, as a bug.
I think it can go a long way in making late-game PvT not look so pathetic.
|
On September 16 2011 00:50 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:14 Asday wrote:On September 16 2011 00:11 Condor Hero wrote:On September 16 2011 00:09 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd. No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells. Since EMP is instant, I'm thinking that EMP should have a timer where multiple EMPs aren't useful within a certain amount of time (say, like 5 secs consecutive EMPs don't work on units already hit with it) might go a long way to helping Protoss deal with mass Ghost in late game. That was in the game before, as a bug. I think it can go a long way in making late-game PvT not look so pathetic.
You imply that watching a dozen blue blasts followed by every toss unit dying isn't excruciatingly painful.
|
On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors.
Lol why would anyone ever go carrier versus infestor...you can snipe a couple infestors but if they mass them they'll always be able to neural parasite and you just lost 6 supply, 350-250, 25 for each interceptor during the engagement for 100 mins/150 gas/2 food from the zerg. Corruptors are also cost-effective versus phoenix and if not cost-efficient versus carriers, zerg will still have a bigger econ and be able to mass corruptors much quicker than 120 second build time carriers. Maybe if the neural parasite change goes through, but there is absolutely no reason to go carrier against ling/infestor lol.
People need to stop acting as if neural parasite wasn't retarded in the ZvP lategame where you could take over 300/200 colossi, 100/300 archons, etc. that all cost more and take up more supply for the protoss, while fungaling to prevent blink snipes. It's ridiculously cost-efficient, for the race that gets more econ and easily massable, cheap units. Ontop of that roaches and banedrops are great against stalkers unable to blink lategame because roaches are much better than stalkers at higher upgrades while being half the cost.
|
On September 16 2011 00:51 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:50 Condor Hero wrote:On September 16 2011 00:14 Asday wrote:On September 16 2011 00:11 Condor Hero wrote:On September 16 2011 00:09 Whitewing wrote:On September 16 2011 00:02 SagaSan wrote:On September 15 2011 22:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 22:42 mibuokami wrote:On September 15 2011 22:40 ABagOfFritos wrote:On September 15 2011 22:34 RainF4ll wrote:
The Infestor is a good and interesting unit and makes PvZ much more exciting. Grubby destroyed Destiny with his HT micro. I really love the idea that a weaker player like Grubby is able to beat Infestors while "good" player like HUK and Puzzle are losing. The ability to micro should be rewarded in this game. And now Blizzard is destroying this interesting matchup before it was able to shine.
If they would increase the Feedback range even bad player could handle Infestors. It would also help versus Ghosts. They should buff Toss. A Zerg nerf is just wrong.
A toss buff is also ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed while Zerg needs to be buffed, if these are done right, the game will see balance. Protoss is the middleground that needs to be reached with the other two. I'd rather they make P & Z more like T =( More options = better game to watch. A lot of the problems with the XvT matches stems from the extensive list of options T has at their disposal and he fact that all their units are so effective in general. Zerg for instance has lots of options: Mutas Mass upgraded ground army Infestors Drop play Nydus Burrow roaches And various combinations That list is somewhat comparable to the terran list, but Zerg has increasing chances of dying outright to standard play the further down the list he goes. The biggest reason cloaked banshees are viable in SC2 is because Terrans are the only race with a tangible defenders advantage. Fix that, and you will fix Z/P qft T units are fine by themselves (even BFH and MULES are ok for me) and the terran lategame isn't imabalanced, the early game XvT mechanics are flawed in design. The mass scv repair stuff is absurd. No, I'm 90% certain that ghosts are too good lategame. Heavy ghost play beats everything zerg has except for roaches (lol roaches vs. terran). EMP is too strong against protoss and you can't dodge it, and they can nuke and cloak on top of their two freaking amazing other spells. Since EMP is instant, I'm thinking that EMP should have a timer where multiple EMPs aren't useful within a certain amount of time (say, like 5 secs consecutive EMPs don't work on units already hit with it) might go a long way to helping Protoss deal with mass Ghost in late game. That was in the game before, as a bug. I think it can go a long way in making late-game PvT not look so pathetic. You imply that watching a dozen blue blasts followed by every toss unit dying isn't excruciatingly painful.
lol trying not to start a flame war, but pathetic is the right word when you see archons get chain empd and then just melt to anything.
|
On September 16 2011 00:52 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Lol why would anyone ever go carrier versus infestor...you can snipe a couple infestors but if they mass them they'll always be able to neural parasite and you just lost 6 supply, 350-250, 25 for each interceptor. Corruptors are also cost-effective versus phoenix and if not cost-efficient versus carriers, zerg will still have a bigger econ and be able to mass corruptors much quicker. Maybe if the neural parasite change goes through, but there is absolutely no reason to go carrier against ling/infestor lol.
Infestors are actually really, really bad at taking out Carriers. :/
If you control your Carriers decently you can easily stay well out of range of Neural Parasite. Sure Zerg can build Corruptors, but isn't that a good thing as long as you aren't over-committing too much into Carriers? Hydras do really well vs Carriers but suck against just about everything else.
This is almost entirely theory crafting though since I almost never actually see Carriers, but I do know on the rare occasions I do see Carriers or Battlecruisers they scare the crap out of me. I need to practice more on my Protoss play to put these kinds of things into action since people never believe me unless I physically prove it myself for some reason.
|
On September 16 2011 00:50 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:44 LoveCrashes wrote:
Just curious, when do you think they are going to drop this patch, I'm excited for the changes that they've added, not to mention some of the simple UI stuff. After they removed the NP change. For the rest of the patch, I really want to try it out on the live servers aswell. Probably will take atleast 1-2 weeks?
NP change? Sorry, I figured they would have been through testing it already. It was on the PTR already I figured they'd be done already (it's been two weeks right?)
|
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food.
|
On September 16 2011 00:49 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:36 Perscienter wrote:On September 16 2011 00:23 Sm3agol wrote:On September 16 2011 00:18 Perscienter wrote:
I was random and again the horrible changes are as numerous as the reasonable ones.
Neural Parasite's purpose was to parasite important units. The low time it persisted was already outrageous. The Hellions never lived up to their role as a replacement for the Vulture. Instead of adjusting it in another way, their only idea is another damage nerf. Again, the same patch pattern, again it just becomes more boring.
The Cloaking Field lag is ridiculous and shows, that Blizzard lacks programming skills.
Furthermore two APM values should be recorded. A raw one and an efficient.
Again, there a lot of necessary adjustments, but Blizzard keeps throwing in bad and unimaginative balance changes. People. Please think for a moment before spouting random accusations. You just said Blizzard sucks at programming......Really? It's things like this, that pretty much negates anything and everything else you say. Programming games like this is NOT easy to start with, and considering how bug-free SC2 is, it's just amazing that you would even think this. Then why do they not let that darn thing and the effect pre-load or design it in a way, that that wouldn't be necessary? A balance adjustment born out of the necessity to fix a ram-management issue... just horrible. It does pre-load, it requires re-rendering the graphic of all of your probes and buildings. It's not a ram-management issue. It is NOT a balance change... how could you even think this
It cloaks a maximum of 25 units (buildings, too?) per seconds. Could become an issue with a Zerg ally. I would like to see a video of this effect. I currently don't have a sufficient pc at hand.
|
On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it.
I dont think you fully understand the term investment. From an economical point of view, bunkers were never free.
|
On September 16 2011 00:58 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:52 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors. Lol why would anyone ever go carrier versus infestor...you can snipe a couple infestors but if they mass them they'll always be able to neural parasite and you just lost 6 supply, 350-250, 25 for each interceptor. Corruptors are also cost-effective versus phoenix and if not cost-efficient versus carriers, zerg will still have a bigger econ and be able to mass corruptors much quicker. Maybe if the neural parasite change goes through, but there is absolutely no reason to go carrier against ling/infestor lol. Infestors are actually really, really bad at taking out Carriers. :/ If you control your Carriers decently you can easily stay well out of range of Neural Parasite. Sure Zerg can build Corruptors, but isn't that a good thing as long as you aren't over-committing too much into Carriers? Hydras do really well vs Carriers but suck against just about everything else. This is almost entirely theory crafting though since I almost never actually see Carriers, but I do know on the rare occasions I do see Carriers or Battlecruisers they scare the crap out of me. I need to practice more on my Protoss play to put these kinds of things into action since people never believe me unless I physically prove it myself for some reason.
Carriers launch interceptors at 8 range, neural parasite is 9 range. Just because something works against you doesn't mean it is actually viable. I've seen Huk try it against Morrow in a 200/200 split map situation and Morrow won with mass infestor/broodlord maybe losing 4 supply.
On September 16 2011 01:01 Hider wrote:
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food.
I think you're talking about protoss? From a design perspective protoss is supposed to have the strongest army. Unless you're referring to mass gateway army which is garbage against terran infantry late game without T3 support anyway.
|
On September 16 2011 01:01 Hider wrote:
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food.
I disagree, I feel with Protoss units are most expensive and most food, therefore it requires them to be very cautious with their units. But they have the strongest army, because the synergy they have really pushes them forward.
I feel like most Terran units are situational and special in there uses. Want to kill workers, go hellions, he gets specialist units (HT and festor) go ghost. Because each unit has special abilities they have to make use of said ability to work properly. (i.e. Vikings on the ground won't help in dealing with collossi)
|
On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough...
You were talking how terrans were complaining that the Thor got nerfed back after they were buffed, Yet here where i have underlined and bold, you complain about the nerf to infestors but neglect to mention the buff they recieved in the extra damage dealt.
This Thread is almost becoming a joke with people theorycrafting and such, funny how the people arguing here are the people who can;t play at the top level.
|
On September 16 2011 01:06 LoveCrashes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:01 Hider wrote:
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food. I disagree, I feel with Protoss units are most expensive and most food, therefore it requires them to be very cautious with their units. But they have the strongest army, because the synergy they have really pushes them forward. I feel like most Terran units are situational and special in there uses. Want to kill workers, go hellions, he gets specialist units (HT and festor) go ghost. Because each unit has special abilities they have to make use of said ability to work properly. (i.e. Vikings on the ground won't help in dealing with collossi)
Depends on the style. Collo/voidray? Yeah, super expensive, takes forever to rebuild. Gateway armies are completely different though. They shouldn't be unstoppable as a 200/200 ball as they do get rebuilt very quickly.
Terran units can all be boiled down into performing a support role for the marine :p
|
On September 16 2011 01:14 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:06 LoveCrashes wrote:On September 16 2011 01:01 Hider wrote:
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food. I disagree, I feel with Protoss units are most expensive and most food, therefore it requires them to be very cautious with their units. But they have the strongest army, because the synergy they have really pushes them forward. I feel like most Terran units are situational and special in there uses. Want to kill workers, go hellions, he gets specialist units (HT and festor) go ghost. Because each unit has special abilities they have to make use of said ability to work properly. (i.e. Vikings on the ground won't help in dealing with collossi) Depends on the style. Collo/voidray? Yeah, super expensive, takes forever to rebuild. Gateway armies are completely different though. They shouldn't be unstoppable as a 200/200 ball as they do get rebuilt very quickly. Terran units can all be boiled down into performing a support role for the marine :p
Yeah, I agree, style is the case, but I can't see anyone going just zeal, sent, stalker, without getting more expensive units.
Terran is all support to the marine, because that's their only damaging unit. Because of the mallebility of the Marine (the fact its air/ground attack, reasonable speed, and can be massed) means that it fits well with all mixes.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 00:44 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 00:32 ceaRshaf wrote:On September 16 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 15 2011 23:50 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 15 2011 23:09 Snowbear wrote:
Only korean terrans are dominating. European and American terrans are doing as good as the protoss and zerg players.
Blizzard wants to make sc2 an esportgame, and they will nerf everything that is possible to get a balanced game. The fact that they never nerfed mules, means that it's not necessary. Blizzard nerfed several terran units:
- tanks lost 25 damage vs light (!)
- emp only kills 100 energy
- the ghost cost to 200/100 is a nerf, because if you played terran you would know that lategame gas is no problem for terran
- the thor is feedbackable and the strike cannon is useless.
- medviacs are slower + heal slower then before
- battlecruisers got nerfed (damage)
Play terran, especially lategame, and then come back and ask for a mulenerf.
Let blizzard balance the game, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Oh and LOL has so many viewers because the game is FREE. SC2 is actually much more exciting to watch. This list of Terran nerfs made me lol. Tanks lost 25 dmg vs light because they were obliterating everything on the ground once you got more than 5 of them. Even with their much more modest damage vs light, we still see them in 90% of TvZ and TvT games as an integral part of standard play. Tanks aren't hurting from their nerf to light units. EMP was just silly and probably needs another nerf. Ghost cost was neither a nerf nor a buff, just a readjustment of the units cost. You can try and split hairs with it one way or another, but it does not have a notable effect on ghost production at any point from what I've seen. The Thor change was reverting Thors BACK to normal from the BUFF they had previously given them which lead to OP Thor timing attacks in TvP. HOW UNFAIR! Medivacs had their acceleration and top speed reduced because Terran drops were basically unstoppable. Terran still has the best drops in the game. Their healing rate did not get changed in any way, and comparing to BW, they actually heal 2x as fast as medics used to. You might say it's all fair due to the increased cost in comparison, but 2x the healing is still 2x the healing, no matter how you slice it. BCs got nerfed because they were just too good vs Protoss. dealing 10 dmg a shot made it so Stalkers actually lost an equal fight vs BC. Yamato still 1-shots Void Rays, and Phoenix/Carriers are rather ineffective due to the high armor of BCs. The nerf was very reasonable and BCs aren't exactly a bad unit for their cost, just inconvenient to tech to in that match-up. All of these Terran nerfs are very reasonable, light adjustments to the units that don't actually change the purpose or effectiveness for the units ideal usage. Many of these changes were so small in fact, that those same things that were previously adjusted may still need further adjustment. Compare that to some of the gems from the other races. Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds. Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 160. Void Ray * Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored). * Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored). * Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. Ultralisk * Ram ability removed. Ultralisk will now use normal attack against buildings. * Damage decreased from 15 (+25 armored) to 15 (+20 armored). (Don't forget the stealth nerf of their cleave damage from 100% to 35%) Where Terran gets light adjustments that keep the affected unit virtually the same, only toning it down to a more reasonable level, Protoss/Zerg changes adversely affect the target of the nerf in a crippling manner. Damn Terran has got it rough... They used to get 100% salvage now they only get 75% It's so hard being Terran ;_; When bunker salvaging was free I knew something was wrong with terran. It's such a basic design flaw. How can you get something, use it, and than return it for all the cost. It's against the nature of investment and reward that is all around in StarCraft. I'm really sad that p v x games are in general really boring and repetitive. It shows that there is something wrong with the race. Just think how stupid it is when we all get hyped because someone is using a warprism. "OMG he made a warpprism COOL!!!!". We are so lame we might as well acknowledge it. I really think Protoss has a lot more utility to their units that they haven't fully discovered yet, it just needs more time. Like, even only just within the last couple weeks has Protoss figured out that Phoenix can be used to break Neural Parasite and pick off Infestors in big engagements, it's absolutely sick. Even like, Carriers, sure they take ages to build, I'm not saying they're easy to make but like going up against a Ling/Infestor style Zergs don't even want to be utilizing Corruptors, yet if Protoss are utilizing Phoenix and maybe mixing in a couple Carriers and maybe a Mothership I can imagine it would just about force a Zerg into making some Corruptors.
Carriers actually just suck. They have bad DPS for their cost and time to build (yeah, if you just happen to have some for free that's great, but you don't.) They have lower DPS than several other units, at max interceptors, which also get killed and cost money. Plus, until next patch, zerg could neural your carriers! Oh, and they aren't that good at tanking damage due to a lousy 2 armor (in comparison to the 4 armor they had in BW or the 3 of the BC now). Not to mention they do almost no damage at all without air upgrades due to everything having good armor upgrades by the time they come out, and unless you've been going heavy air all game (which is suicide), you won't have the air upgrades you need for them.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:19 LoveCrashes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 01:14 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 01:06 LoveCrashes wrote:On September 16 2011 01:01 Hider wrote:
well from a deisng perspective, terran is supposed to have the strongest army, since it takes long time for them to rebuild. Not saying the game is balanced, but mass ghosts + other units at 200 food are actually supposed to beat almost everything as they are super expensive / food. I disagree, I feel with Protoss units are most expensive and most food, therefore it requires them to be very cautious with their units. But they have the strongest army, because the synergy they have really pushes them forward. I feel like most Terran units are situational and special in there uses. Want to kill workers, go hellions, he gets specialist units (HT and festor) go ghost. Because each unit has special abilities they have to make use of said ability to work properly. (i.e. Vikings on the ground won't help in dealing with collossi) Depends on the style. Collo/voidray? Yeah, super expensive, takes forever to rebuild. Gateway armies are completely different though. They shouldn't be unstoppable as a 200/200 ball as they do get rebuilt very quickly. Terran units can all be boiled down into performing a support role for the marine :p Yeah, I agree, style is the case, but I can't see anyone going just zeal, sent, stalker, without getting more expensive units. Terran is all support to the marine, because that's their only damaging unit. Because of the mallebility of the Marine (the fact its air/ground attack, reasonable speed, and can be massed) means that it fits well with all mixes.
The marine is not the terran's only damaging unit, they have plenty of units that do good damage. If the marine were their only damaging unit, you wouldn't see players going mass marauder late game vs. toss, or pure mech in TvT, or GoOdy ever win a game ever, period. The marine is the most efficient damage dealer terran has, but their other units are all good too. The only unit they have that might arguably be considered a bad unit is the reaper, but I'm personally of the opinion that late game reapers are freaking amazing for sniping important tech structures and scouting.
|
Carriers launch interceptors at 8 range, neural parasite is 9 range. Just because something works against you doesn't mean it is actually viable. I've seen Huk try it against Morrow in a 200/200 split map situation and Morrow won with mass infestor/broodlord maybe losing 4 supply.
Yeah but that's only launch range, if you have your interceptors out you can micro your Carriers back to give your interceptors a range of 13. Just because you've seen an example of something not working doesn't mean it isn't viable.
|
Only differences between carriers in BW and now are a) bio is way > mech, and carriers are an anti mech unit, and b) Protoss' two biggest, baddest units (carrier and collossus) are both killed by the same unit, which is dumb.
It would still see much more use if mech became dominant somehow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
