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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 13 2011 00:41 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. Why not just keep your infestors burrowed and keep an overseer to deny observers? Now your infestors are immune to feedback while travelling and you don't even have to bother with microing a transport like people keep suggesting for HT versus ghosts. And it's choice to call infestors slow when, even when burrowed, they're faster than high templar.
I won't talk about anything related to balance but, whitch part of the zerg army is suppose to kill the observer ?
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The infestor, an errant queen, a token corruptor. We're talking about high templar timings, there's some leeway.
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burrow/unburrow micro is actually surprisingly hard. There's an awkward delay between when you issue the unburrow command and when you can actually do anything with the infestor. It feels like an eternity to a high APM player, and oftentimes, it is because your infestor dies when it unburrows -_-
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On September 13 2011 02:25 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 00:41 Resistentialism wrote:On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. Why not just keep your infestors burrowed and keep an overseer to deny observers? Now your infestors are immune to feedback while travelling and you don't even have to bother with microing a transport like people keep suggesting for HT versus ghosts. And it's choice to call infestors slow when, even when burrowed, they're faster than high templar. I won't talk about anything related to balance but, whitch part of the zerg army is suppose to kill the observer ?
2 fungels? Pro zerg do it all the time, because they know how much of a pill it is to replace them. Killing an obs is totally worth it if the Protoss is going HT. They will be totally gas starved. Unless they keep the thing hovering over their army at times.
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On September 13 2011 02:07 Perfect wrote:
The meta game is about to change heavily from this patch, i look forward to seeing the next stage of pro builds.
no dude lol. we already saw what people did when NP and heavy infestor usage wasn't the norm.
its going to go back to caveman style roach/hydra/corrupter and roach/ling allins.
yay such skillful, entertaining gameplay.
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On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level.
It's impossible for protoss to keep templars at the front of our army, templars are much slower than the rest of it unlike infestors which go at the normal army speed.
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On September 13 2011 01:37 Resistentialism wrote:
See, the issue that actually needs the discussion is whether a playstyle where zerg goes only lings and infestors regardless of what their opponent does in the first 12 minutes is okay, and the bad answer is "of course it is, HT totally shut down infestor builds".
Well, only lings and infestors really sucks against ... only zealots.
You need roaches or at least bannelings do deal with it. This means you must have at least half of the lair tech. (pool, banneling, roach, spire, hydra, infestor).
On top of that, you need to consider that you can't support spire & infestor together, and that after trying for months to use hydra, we have realize that it's almost always better to avoid making any.
That's the whole problem, zerg don't have many alternatives. Roach-hydra-corruptors has been tested for like 6 months, and it doesn't work. Corruptors are the worst unit in the game, hydra suck, muta is gimmicky in ZvP (good as a tech switch though). So you are left we 4 units, lings, bannelings, infestors roaches.
If you brutaly nerf one of this units, zerg risk to lack answer to some situation.
Infestors probably need a nerf. But nerfing fungal and removing NP, that's an overkill.
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On September 13 2011 02:40 Cassel_Castle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. It's impossible for protoss to keep templars at the front of our army, templars are much slower than the rest of it unlike infestors which go at the normal army speed.
Obviously if you a-move, your templars will be out of position. It's the same thing with infestors, they are slower than the zerg army.
But if you can't micro your HT with your army, you may try using cute tricks, like loading 2 HT in a speedprism, flank the zerg, feedback everything, gg. I have no idea if this can work in practice, but neither do you, so don't use the word "impossible".
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On September 13 2011 03:03 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:40 Cassel_Castle wrote:On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. It's impossible for protoss to keep templars at the front of our army, templars are much slower than the rest of it unlike infestors which go at the normal army speed. Obviously if you a-move, your templars will be out of position. It's the same thing with infestors, they are slower than the zerg army. But if you can't micro your HT with your army, you may try using cute tricks, like loading 2 HT in a speedprism, flank the zerg, feedback everything, gg. I have no idea if this can work in practice, but neither do you, so don't use the word "impossible".
HT movement speed is 1.88. It's not realistic to put them in front of your army, which has units that go at 2.25, 2.75 and 2.95.
Storm is not a snare, and HTs can't burrow or cloak, so there's no way to keep them from dying.
edit: Also, for the record, speed prism is colossus tech (robotics support bay research) and HT is the opposite tech direction. It's very hard to have both until the latest phase of the game, and even then it's questionable.
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On September 12 2011 21:14 beute wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:02 p1oneer wrote:
lol, neural parasite is now pointless what else to neural? stalker? marine?
It's just a way to make it intentionally useless without actually removing it completely from the game like they did with some other upgrades... but yes,I think blizzard is fully aware now that the NP will be pretty useless after the nerf, it's actually intended and they wanna test how it works. be happy they actually keep the upgrade, at least it keeps the chance alive that it might get a comeback in form of a buff in later patches/addons.
Pretty much. If something gets removed from the game completely, even though it still exists in the game code, you won't get it back until you pay blizzard more money (HoTS lurkers anyone?).
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On September 12 2011 21:28 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 20:58 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:43 Kambing wrote:Ah ok. He was referencing the drop fix. In practice, not a big deal because when units are moving, there will usually be a hex for the baneling to fit. I reserve the right to retract that statement when I actually get into real games when the patch goes live, and I find my baneling bombs end up being surprisingly less effective anyways. -_- Thats a bug. The change in the patch notes is only supposed to affect areas in the Fog of War when you issue commands. Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location. So the unit needs vision of where it is originally moving to to drop the banelings. No more clicking on the FOW behind the toss and then dropping units on the go. Instead you need to click where you have vision to drop the units. Ill test and come back (once i get PTR working) Tested it out if you have vision (example: clicking on an overlord past your loaded overlords) if the opponent isnt on hold position then the banelings do drop on the units. The dropped unit needs a hex to land on now and if they arent on hold then they allow this hex to be created SO LONG AS you have clicked somewhere you have vision. this basically makes it impossible to shift queue up 3 base baneling drops while attacking and microing the front.
So, you're saying drops in bases involving banelings got nerfed while terran drops didnt get affected at all, right?
On September 13 2011 01:29 mskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 01:25 Lomak wrote:
High Templars can work and still do work no matter how good your zerg opponent is with fungal.
^Those sort of statements make a lot of assumptions about the game that shouldn't be made. There is already a natural tension on the battlefield when infestors and High templar start to collide. As much as people would love to claim otherwise I have hardly ever seen one side completely dominate the other, it's usually who has the better control in that game. Or who went into the fight with better position / larger army, or some other X factor that pushed them over the edge to win.
Saying that HT"s never get to feedback infestors because FG radius is larger that Feedback range is just ignorant. Roaches move slower and have a shorter attack than stalkers, so in theory they should never get a hit off against them. As we all know that's not true and I really wish people would stop trying to speak about the HT / Infestor matchup so "matter of factly" when everything we've seen come out of the pro scene show's us that there is a LOT of back and forth between them. Roaches are faster than stalkers, yes?  Otherwise i agree with your post
/facepalm.
a roach is 3 speed when upgraded and 2.25 when not. a marine is 2.25 before stim. a stalker is always 2.95
thats a stalker/roach difference of .05 speed.
Assume the roach starts out chasing a stalker at 7 range away. it will be necessary to cross the entire map on abyssal cavern horizontally as the stalker runs to the other side, before the roach gets into range.
yes, roach is "faster" than stalker. No, it doesn't really make a difference.
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On September 13 2011 05:13 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:28 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:58 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:43 Kambing wrote:Ah ok. He was referencing the drop fix. In practice, not a big deal because when units are moving, there will usually be a hex for the baneling to fit. I reserve the right to retract that statement when I actually get into real games when the patch goes live, and I find my baneling bombs end up being surprisingly less effective anyways. -_- Thats a bug. The change in the patch notes is only supposed to affect areas in the Fog of War when you issue commands. Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location. So the unit needs vision of where it is originally moving to to drop the banelings. No more clicking on the FOW behind the toss and then dropping units on the go. Instead you need to click where you have vision to drop the units. Ill test and come back (once i get PTR working) Tested it out if you have vision (example: clicking on an overlord past your loaded overlords) if the opponent isnt on hold position then the banelings do drop on the units. The dropped unit needs a hex to land on now and if they arent on hold then they allow this hex to be created SO LONG AS you have clicked somewhere you have vision. this basically makes it impossible to shift queue up 3 base baneling drops while attacking and microing the front. So, you're saying drops in bases involving banelings got nerfed while terran drops didnt get affected at all, right?
Bane rain in worker lines won't be affected - there are plenty of open hexes even in an oversaturated line.
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On September 13 2011 05:13 Truedot wrote:
/facepalm.
a roach is 3 speed when upgraded and 2.25 when not. a marine is 2.25 before stim. a stalker is always 2.95
thats a stalker/roach difference of .05 speed.
Assume the roach starts out chasing a stalker at 7 range away. it will be necessary to cross the entire map on abyssal cavern horizontally as the stalker runs to the other side, before the roach gets into range.
yes, roach is "faster" than stalker. No, it doesn't really make a difference.
Should I remind you that the value you are giving are out creep.
Unuprgaded Roach out creep move at 2.25, on creep it's 2.92 almost a stalker speed
The upgraded roach move at 3 speed out creep, on creep it's at 3.9 speed
I doubt a stakler can distance any upgraded roach on creep, can he ?
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I played on the PTR today, and my Thors got Neural Parasited.
I guess they're taking the change back!
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and deathballs aren't affected either, there are enough holes always, Unless the deathball decides to hold posi stand together and not move.
Anyway the ovi control will be a bit harder to do, since the command is canceled if the ovi can't drop anymore. But in the tests an ovi needed a hole in a 4 zealot radius and they get moved into the hole. So practically the banes will automatically be moved beside sentrys now haha (since of the speed difference the first holes will be near sentrys.)
On a sidenote, marauders won't be able to be dropped into baneling balls anymore as well. And maybe it lessens the splash damage done by drops on tanks (maybe mules even). Not sure in what direction this goes fully. But sure the zergs would be the first to panic x3.
Anyway, the banelings will now be dropped into the nearest hole, so they will have a little less splash, on the other hand they will splash the same units, mostly which means the damage will be more centered on units so killing more. All in all i think that way the damage done by fungal (that hit the army when clumped) + banelings is reduced. And in those moments the toss army got destroyed with only baneling losses for the zerg, with not much to do for the toss at that moment.
I for myself will scream, when i see 30 workers pumeling under an ovi filled with banelings.
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Sorry if this has been suggested, removing the NP change and increasing feedback range by one? Or would that break PvT?
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On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level.
This doesn't work. Keeping HT's and ghosts at the front of an army will enable them to be sniped very quickly. And then the player is screwed.
Also, the only way that you could not see infestors win anyone games at the code S level would be to not watch the GSL.
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On September 13 2011 05:34 shackes wrote:
I played on the PTR today, and my Thors got Neural Parasited.
I guess they're taking the change back!
Is this a troll?
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NP change is a greatest change ever.
I remember on of the pro-replays casted(husky mb?) where guy lost 9(nine) Thors to 8 infestors just because of this idiotic ability (just thors vs Infestors and nothing else). NP everywhere and do nothing else... It was strange ability from the inception.
At last fixed.
Hope infested terrans are the next step.
No more mass infestors in all match-ups. Guys, isn't it great? It is.
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On September 13 2011 06:07 Datum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. This doesn't work. Keeping HT's and ghosts at the front of an army will enable them to be sniped very quickly. And then the player is screwed. Also, the only way that you could not see infestors win anyone games at the code S level would be to not watch the GSL.
you have scans and observers. Theres no reason for you to be gaining vision with your spell casters, you should already have superior vision to the zerg player. Even if they have overseers, zerg has no anti air (other then fg) when going infestors so it should not really matter. EMP's and feedbacks should always go off before the engagement, as that is when it will make the difference.
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EPT
