EPTPatch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 403
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote: When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. No good zerg is keeping his infestors in front of his army. Since you had mentioned Destiny above, I recommend to watch his stream. He tells his coaching students there that infestors must be kept behind the own army at any point of the match and only are allowed to go forward a little bit when you use "e" to np a target or "f" to fg a target and then immediately move the infestor backwards after that. If you face zergs that follow that rule of keeping infestors behind their army (which they should) you can't feedback/emp his units. Apart from that the other two races can't support their casters with just low gas units like zerg with ling/roach and be fine. Stalker/Sentry consumes quite some gas, you will have like 2 hts vs 8-10 infestors (watch LiquidTyler with his new fast ht+storm pvz style he has been working on to counter it). The same goes for terran who needs at least some tanks to deal with the mass units of zerg. Since fg and np have that big of a range and infestors are the fastest of all 3 caster units (especially on creep) it's actually quite hard to get into range, ling/roach will block your way. If you let your ghosts/hts lead your army, ling/roach can reach and kill it quickly and still you won't reach the infestors. However, I'm not really happy with the changes to fg/np. Even though infestors in its current version are too strong, the approach is somewhat questionable. The great thing about infestors right now is that they are easily accessable (right at lair tech and open hive tech) and can be used against litterally any army composition the opponent is going for. At masters level all my friends just blindly go for infestors right now and know they can defend air/power units/mass units/cloaked units all at the same time. They can go on the offensive after getting their first infestors, letting their meatshield die and burrow moving backwards their infestors or just let them gather more energy and tech up behind it (since they are quite supply efficient as well). It would be nice if they would remove the ability to permanently fg a whole group of units and in return maybe don't reduce the dps enabling the possibilty to actually micro marines/stalkers out of harms way like all other aoe in the game (colossus/ht/banelings/ultras/tanks/thors...). | ||
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HellionDrop
281 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote: I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July. Snipe: 1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill. 2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes. 3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while. Feedback: 1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on. 2. One HT can kill up to four infestors. I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks. When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level. snipe requires more apm than you think. you need to click like crazy to kill units like ultralisks and broodlords, and you can't really do anything else in the battle. also a good fungal is all you need against ghosts. in july vs mvp game, july didn't play particular well imo. he didn't support his broodlords with infestors, he also threw away 10 ultra for no reason. | ||
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Jagd
United States71 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:49 Resistentialism wrote: Last I heard fungal growth had a range of 9 and a big radius. Where exactly am I supposed to position my HT? I think I'm going to need a diagram. Feedback also has range 9. If a zerg is using fungal to hit the edge of your army, then consider yourself lucky because he's wasting fungals. Also feedback can be efficiently queued while fg cannot be queued and can only be casted in range; as a result any zerg with sub godlike control will get into range 7-8 before casting fungal in order to make sure that it goes off where they intended it to. Thus you ought to have plenty of opportunities to feedback infestors as they try to fungal your army. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:53 Fairwell wrote: the other two races can't support their casters with just low gas units like zerg with ling/roach and be fine. The same goes for terran who needs at least some tanks to deal with the mass units of zerg. I really didn't get any further than this in your post. Did you REALLY just try to imply that Terran spends more gas on their army supporting Ghosts (which cost less gas than infestors) than Zerg does? Is this the same game where Marines counter EVERYTHING Zerg has? | ||
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JKira
Canada1002 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:46 Jagd wrote: I wasn't referring to killing infestors when they're just moving around; rather when an army:army engagement is about to happen, the infestors will have to engage unburrowed (to use fungal vs Protoss), and they will either be slightly ahead of the zerg army or on its sides. Position your HT the same and even one HT can kill up to four infestors. Infestors are slow relative to the rest of zerg's units (roaches, lings), I guess the same could be said for HT's compared to the rest of Protosses' units (stalkers). 50 Energy isn't that much to kill a powerful unit. Losing your ghosts is not really a problem because the rest of your units are better than the rest of zerg's units. Even so, it's unlikely you will loose ghosts if cloaked since it's easy to snipe overseers; infestors are most effective when they are in front of an army. So they can fungal your stimmed marines without having the rest of the army take damage from them. Keeping infesters in the back for added DPS is about as effective as having hydras in the back; they'll just get slaughtered. Infestors are only slower than other Zerg units because other Zerg units are freaking fast. They are much faster than HT. I don't know why you only list Stalkers because HT are slower than every Protoss ground unit. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:53 Fairwell wrote: No good zerg is keeping his infestors in front of his army. Since you had mentioned Destiny above, I recommend to watch his stream. He tells his coaching students there that infestors must be kept behind the own army at any point of the match and only are allowed to go forward a little bit when you use "e" to np a target or "f" to fg a target and then immediately move the infestor backwards after that. If you face zergs that follow that rule of keeping infestors behind their army (which they should) you can't feedback/emp his units. I kind of stopped reading here. You mention Destiny but I see you never looked at his stream. He gets his infestors feedbacked or EMP in almost all games where the opponents build HT or Ghosts. It is much harder then you think to use Infestors effectively and keep them safe at the same time. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
It's just silly. Infestors can work and still do work no matter how good your protoss opponent is with feedbacking. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:58 HellionDrop wrote: snipe requires more apm than you think. you need to click like crazy to kill units like ultralisks and broodlords, and you can't really do anything else in the battle. also a good fungal is all you need against ghosts. in july vs mvp game, july didn't play particular well imo. he didn't support his broodlords with infestors, he also threw away 10 ultra for no reason. It only takes a moment to queue up Ghost Snipes, in fact it's exactly as micro intensive as it is for a Zerg player to queue up Infested Terran bombs and Zergs have been able to manage that much for quite some time now. On September 13 2011 01:10 Resistentialism wrote: Honestly I know feedback is good versus infestors, but it seems like every 5 pages in this thread there's some zerg who comes in to say ht are THE PERFECT COUNTER, and that as soon as a templar is on the field infestors are COMPLETELY USELESS. Like it's some kind of revolutionary idea that a protoss could not come up with (because they are bad, idra said so). It's just silly. Infestors can work and still do work no matter how good your protoss opponent is with feedbacking. That's true but thats also true for basically everything in this game, there are pretty much no hard counters, everything is soft counters thats just how it works. Zergs are saying "Get Ghosts, get HT" not because it's going to automatically ruin all Infestors, but what it does is even the playing field and make the game come down to micro, whoever micros better wins. This is why I hate it when people say "infestors counter EVERYTHING" no, no they do not. If I'm playing against a Diamond Zerg 9/10 times I can "counter" their Infestors with just half decent Marine micro. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:04 Jermstuddog wrote: I really didn't get any further than this in your post. Did you REALLY just try to imply that Terran spends more gas on their army supporting Ghosts (which cost less gas than infestors) than Zerg does? Is this the same game where Marines counter EVERYTHING Zerg has? Aparently infestors counter everything in the game too as many other players seem to say. Could it be that infestors are disguised rouge marines? That would explain why they can spew out infested terrans. =P Seriously, I think both zerg and terran are about equal in gas cost counting both tanks and ghosts they need to make. That is if it stays in both just ghost and tanks, but it should be considered that terrans don't include ghosts right away since marines are more handy early in game and that they might decide to do thors if zerg makes some mutas to worker harass. Terran and zerg building costs, might be a thing to considered also, since terrans need to put down more unit producing structures and add-on as the game goes on. Overall, I personally consider them to be about even. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
^Those sort of statements make a lot of assumptions about the game that shouldn't be made. There is already a natural tension on the battlefield when infestors and High templar start to collide. As much as people would love to claim otherwise I have hardly ever seen one side completely dominate the other, it's usually who has the better control in that game. Or who went into the fight with better position / larger army, or some other X factor that pushed them over the edge to win. Saying that HT"s never get to feedback infestors because FG radius is larger that Feedback range is just ignorant. Roaches move slower and have a shorter attack than stalkers, so in theory they should never get a hit off against them. As we all know that's not true and I really wish people would stop trying to speak about the HT / Infestor matchup so "matter of factly" when everything we've seen come out of the pro scene show's us that there is a LOT of back and forth between them. | ||
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mskaa
Denmark155 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:25 Lomak wrote: High Templars can work and still do work no matter how good your zerg opponent is with fungal. ^Those sort of statements make a lot of assumptions about the game that shouldn't be made. There is already a natural tension on the battlefield when infestors and High templar start to collide. As much as people would love to claim otherwise I have hardly ever seen one side completely dominate the other, it's usually who has the better control in that game. Or who went into the fight with better position / larger army, or some other X factor that pushed them over the edge to win. Saying that HT"s never get to feedback infestors because FG radius is larger that Feedback range is just ignorant. Roaches move slower and have a shorter attack than stalkers, so in theory they should never get a hit off against them. As we all know that's not true and I really wish people would stop trying to speak about the HT / Infestor matchup so "matter of factly" when everything we've seen come out of the pro scene show's us that there is a LOT of back and forth between them. Roaches are faster than stalkers, yes?  Otherwise i agree with your post | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On the other side of that though, as a zerg player I have a love/hate relationship with infestors. I enjoy using them, but I hate being forced to rely entirely on them every game. I would much prefer that zerg had the breadth of strategy that is available to terran right now. TvT is the most complex diverse matchup right now, because terran has the most tools available to them, and the only matchup that they've needed to innovate on has been TvT. Give the players like MVP more time and I doubt they'll drop more than a game in 5 to Z/P, which is already showing in the fact there are twice as many terrans as the other races combined in code S. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:04 Jermstuddog wrote: I really didn't get any further than this in your post. Did you REALLY just try to imply that Terran spends more gas on their army supporting Ghosts (which cost less gas than infestors) than Zerg does? Is this the same game where Marines counter EVERYTHING Zerg has? I agree with the statement about the Marine. Zerg needs something that more clearly counters the Marine. With proper micro, there's no limit to how cost effective groups of Marines can get. That combined with their fast-building, reactor-able, cheap cost, and tier 1 availability makes a little too good. Ultralisks need to counter marines COLD, not the other way around. Come on, a tier 3 unit which costs 300mins/200gas and can only hit ground units at a melee range versus tier 1 units that can fire at good range and at air and ground? Ultras need to counter marines hard. But in light of this discussion, Terran doesn't need to spend nearly as much gas to support their ghosts. The only other unit that requires a Terran's gas is the Siege Tank. Zerg often needs Mutas and Banelings, and MORE Infestors than ghosts to be effective. Someone else said it earlier in this thread, Siege tanks deal more damage than fungals do for no energy cost, instantly, at a range of 13, and "smart casted" every time a siege tank fires. It's okay for an ability that is manually casted from a relatively high tech, high cost and squishy-as-hell unit to be overpowered on paper. In execution, it isn't always so pretty. Especially with Siege Tanks raining down hell from 13 hexes away. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:04 Jermstuddog wrote: I really didn't get any further than this in your post. Did you REALLY just try to imply that Terran spends more gas on their army supporting Ghosts (which cost less gas than infestors) than Zerg does? Is this the same game where Marines counter EVERYTHING Zerg has? He does have a point abour Protoss though. 2 base Templar against Zerg is pretty bad, even if they're going Ling/Infestor. You end up with not enough army to hold your third base against their attack, even though you're producing the "counter" - Zealot/HT. Not to mention a Roach switch will roll you even if you do hold somehow. HTs are quite bad against Roaches. It wouldn't be that bad if Zealot/Archon actually did well against Ling/Infestor, and it does decently, until they get NP. So I wouldn't mind making psionic units immune to NP instead of this change, especially since it also solves the mothership problem. | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:29 mskaa wrote: Roaches are faster than stalkers, yes? Otherwise i agree with your post I was speaking more to the point of unupgraded, if we're factoring in upgrades (roach speed / blink) then the mobility swings arguably more in favor of the stalkers. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 13 2011 02:05 Toadvine wrote: He does have a point abour Protoss though. 2 base Templar against Zerg is pretty bad, even if they're going Ling/Infestor. You end up with not enough army to hold your third base against their attack, even though you're producing the "counter" - Zealot/HT. Not to mention a Roach switch will roll you even if you do hold somehow. HTs are quite bad against Roaches. It wouldn't be that bad if Zealot/Archon actually did well against Ling/Infestor, and it does decently, until they get NP. So I wouldn't mind making psionic units immune to NP instead of this change, especially since it also solves the mothership problem. I'm no pro, but I have never won with 2 base templar against zerg. It requires so much gas and time to get HTs up and you have to cut out way to much. Also, its really hard to hold off any sustained agression, since there is a limit to the number of storms. Its the same with as any sentry based timing push, if you run out of FFs, your dead. I think the NP change does sort of bring the units in line with other powers that "lock down" units.(gravaton beam, forcefields). Still I can see why zergs are grumpy. If NP was less effective against massive units, that would be ok. What if they cut the time in half? You could still use it, but you might be better off locking down an immortal, or seige tank. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:01 Jagd wrote: Feedback also has range 9. If a zerg is using fungal to hit the edge of your army, then consider yourself lucky because he's wasting fungals. Also feedback can be efficiently queued while fg cannot be queued and can only be casted in range; as a result any zerg with sub godlike control will get into range 7-8 before casting fungal in order to make sure that it goes off where they intended it to. Thus you ought to have plenty of opportunities to feedback infestors as they try to fungal your army. When you have 12+ Infestors there is no such thing as "wasting energy", Destinys stream should be enough to prove that | ||
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