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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 21:02 p1oneer wrote:
lol, neural parasite is now pointless what else to neural? stalker? marine?
It's just a way to make it intentionally useless without actually removing it completely from the game like they did with some other upgrades...
but yes,I think blizzard is fully aware now that the NP will be pretty useless after the nerf, it's actually intended and they wanna test how it works.
be happy they actually keep the upgrade, at least it keeps the chance alive that it might get a comeback in form of a buff in later patches/addons.
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i don't know about u guys but i just played a PvZ on the PTR and my colosi were neural parasited...
and im not trolling is this some kind of joke?
Blizzard didnt implemented it on the PTR yet?
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Canada13405 Posts
On September 12 2011 20:58 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 20:43 Kambing wrote:Ah ok. He was referencing the drop fix. In practice, not a big deal because when units are moving, there will usually be a hex for the baneling to fit. I reserve the right to retract that statement when I actually get into real games when the patch goes live, and I find my baneling bombs end up being surprisingly less effective anyways. -_- Thats a bug. The change in the patch notes is only supposed to affect areas in the Fog of War when you issue commands. Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location. So the unit needs vision of where it is originally moving to to drop the banelings. No more clicking on the FOW behind the toss and then dropping units on the go. Instead you need to click where you have vision to drop the units. Ill test and come back (once i get PTR working)
Tested it out if you have vision (example: clicking on an overlord past your loaded overlords) if the opponent isnt on hold position then the banelings do drop on the units. The dropped unit needs a hex to land on now and if they arent on hold then they allow this hex to be created SO LONG AS you have clicked somewhere you have vision.
this basically makes it impossible to shift queue up 3 base baneling drops while attacking and microing the front.
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On September 12 2011 21:21 Crying wrote:
i don't know about u guys but i just played a PvZ on the PTR and my colosi were neural parasited...
and im not trolling is this some kind of joke?
Blizzard didnt implemented it on the PTR yet?
someone wrote that before: There is a bug on the PTR, so massive units can still be neuraled...
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On September 12 2011 21:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:21 Crying wrote:
i don't know about u guys but i just played a PvZ on the PTR and my colosi were neural parasited...
and im not trolling is this some kind of joke?
Blizzard didnt implemented it on the PTR yet? someone wrote that before: There is a bug on the PTR, so massive units can still be neuraled...
This is quite funny if it's a bug, if it isn't i'm gonna be very disapointed.
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On September 12 2011 21:28 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 20:58 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:43 Kambing wrote:Ah ok. He was referencing the drop fix. In practice, not a big deal because when units are moving, there will usually be a hex for the baneling to fit. I reserve the right to retract that statement when I actually get into real games when the patch goes live, and I find my baneling bombs end up being surprisingly less effective anyways. -_- Thats a bug. The change in the patch notes is only supposed to affect areas in the Fog of War when you issue commands. Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location. So the unit needs vision of where it is originally moving to to drop the banelings. No more clicking on the FOW behind the toss and then dropping units on the go. Instead you need to click where you have vision to drop the units. Ill test and come back (once i get PTR working) Tested it out if you have vision (example: clicking on an overlord past your loaded overlords) if the opponent isnt on hold position then the banelings do drop on the units. The dropped unit needs a hex to land on now and if they arent on hold then they allow this hex to be created SO LONG AS you have clicked somewhere you have vision. this basically makes it impossible to shift queue up 3 base baneling drops while attacking and microing the front.
I don't think this will change eco banlingbombs in the slightest :D You have pretty much always a free hex in mineral lines close to the point were you want to drop. (also most baneling drops are done intentionally, because you want to fly over the units to spread your banelings all over his mineralline)
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I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them.
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On September 12 2011 21:39 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them.
The days noone used them and everyone agreed that they suck you mean ?
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Canada13405 Posts
On September 12 2011 21:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:28 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:58 ZeromuS wrote:On September 12 2011 20:43 Kambing wrote:Ah ok. He was referencing the drop fix. In practice, not a big deal because when units are moving, there will usually be a hex for the baneling to fit. I reserve the right to retract that statement when I actually get into real games when the patch goes live, and I find my baneling bombs end up being surprisingly less effective anyways. -_- Thats a bug. The change in the patch notes is only supposed to affect areas in the Fog of War when you issue commands. Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location. So the unit needs vision of where it is originally moving to to drop the banelings. No more clicking on the FOW behind the toss and then dropping units on the go. Instead you need to click where you have vision to drop the units. Ill test and come back (once i get PTR working) Tested it out if you have vision (example: clicking on an overlord past your loaded overlords) if the opponent isnt on hold position then the banelings do drop on the units. The dropped unit needs a hex to land on now and if they arent on hold then they allow this hex to be created SO LONG AS you have clicked somewhere you have vision. this basically makes it impossible to shift queue up 3 base baneling drops while attacking and microing the front. I don't think this will change eco banlingbombs in the slightest :D You have pretty much always a free hex in mineral lines close to the point were you want to drop. (also most baneling drops are done intentionally, because you want to fly over the units to spread your banelings all over his mineralline)
I would test the mineral lines but couldnt because i dont play zerg and theres no way I can queue up a game and make it to baneling drops without dying first lol
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On September 12 2011 21:39 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them.
How the zerg will deal with some mid/push without the 1.3 fungal & the PTR one ?
The pre 1.3 instant damage where clearly not enough but the 1.3 damage is quite important (see the god post with mathematical explication)
I'm not against Infestor but between neural & fungal one must be nerf pretty hard to allow a opening in the metagame against that unit, I hope it will be neural parasite.
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On September 12 2011 21:42 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:39 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them. The days noone used them and everyone agreed that they suck you mean ?
Better than what it is post PTR.
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On September 12 2011 21:42 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:39 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them. The days noone used them and everyone agreed that they suck you mean ?
Doesn't mean they actually sucked. Back in the days hydra/roach was the 'agreed upon' best ZvX composition. Oh and hellions 'sucked' back then too.
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ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new)
I may a n00b, but what exactly will Neural Parasite be used for now? What units are there worth the energy targeting and are not massive instead just spamming Fungal?
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On September 12 2011 23:11 argie wrote:Show nested quote +
ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new)
I may a n00b, but what exactly will Neural Parasite be used for now? What units are there worth targeting and are not massive instead just spamming Fungal?
Immortals, Tanks, HTs and for the lulz Ghosts!
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On September 12 2011 21:46 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:39 chaosfreak11 wrote:
I think it will be good just to revert infestors back to what they used to be. Back during the days no one complained about them. How the zerg will deal with some mid/push without the 1.3 fungal & the PTR one ? The pre 1.3 instant damage where clearly not enough but the 1.3 damage is quite important (see the god post with mathematical explication) I'm not against Infestor but between neural & fungal one must be nerf pretty hard to allow a opening in the metagame against that unit, I hope it will be neural parasite.
expand into 2port banshee is already a buildorder win for terran if one goes infestor (one of the reasons that build is so popular on korea and infestors are not...)
5-6gate should hit before they are out...
And apart from 1 or 2 games, I haven't seen any korean pro use them in the way people always describe them (chain fungal, mass neural).
I really don't get why there should be any nerf right now for infestors, as long as Macroterrans & NesTea, who plays mostly Mutalisks and banelings - and hardly ever infestors - dominate everything...
It's the same discussion like at the time when Forcefields demolished everything, with the one difference that Forcefields never got nerfed and won 2GSL titles in 3seasons, while Infestors haven't won a single title at all but get nerfed hardcore.
+ Show Spoiler +And for anyone asking: yes I play Zerg and no, I barely ever use Infestors apart from ZvZ... I prefer banling drops vs P and muta/bling vs T, but it just bugs me, how the game is being balanced for low level players like me, while 20/32 players in Code S are Terran; 8 of America's top10 are Terran; 8 of Korea's top 10 are Terran; 4 of Europe's top10 are terran (hey, only 4/10, which is still more than 3 P and 3 Z) - btw guess which race is rank1 in all of those regions...; and I don't even want to talk about Code A
Don't get me wrong, the game isn't imbalanced in my eyes. Players like NesTea and Losira have shown us that Zerg can win against the best of the best Terran (and Protoss) players on high level of play.
(for Protoss I don't know and I admit, that they have been struggling pretty hard lately and only ever had 1 really top player in Korea, who got his strength mostly from allins/cheeses that weren't figuered out when he was strong - f.e people believed hydras were the answer to 6gate in ZvP for a long time, while hydras lose pretty much everytime against 6gate these days. Yet this patch and earlier patches already addressed this overall weakness in macro games by protoss, by strengthening core lategame units - Archons, Immortals, Dropships (which are key in terran and Zerg play, so why shouldn't they become key in Protoss play too) - for the cost of some of their already figuered out allins - warpgate & blink buildtime nerfs, while not changing blink or warpgate themselves, so it doesn't have a huge impact in a macro game)
Also I know that Terran gets 2 nerfs as well in this patch (which both won't change a lot about the balancing, as it is pretty much only about TvT where the blueflame nerf will make a difference in battles and rax build time which will change timings slightly, but won't create any new situation in a macro game - where terrans rule right now)
The thing that rather bugs me is, that like with their mapchoices, blizzard reacts mostly to master and lower players, who scream about imbalance, while they simply only have like 20% of the control of proplayers, and therefore screw up - as well as a lot of infestor players screw up in those leagues!
Changes like these will simply only limit a races options in high level of play (less variation = more boring to watch) - in this case of a race, that has pretty much only 2styles in the midgame in both ZvT and ZvP and one of those styles is the infestor (the style that is more exciting to watch, as you barely ever see infestors being played by the top GSL players)
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Did anyone stop to consider that the NP nerf is so that it's simpler to see the result of the FG nerf? Just because it changed on the PTR doesn't mean it'll make it into the actual patch. They're building an environment to see how other changes preform. Effectively removing NP makes it much easier to see how Infesters do against death ball pushes with the reduced damage FG.
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I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level.
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On September 13 2011 00:37 Jagd wrote:
I don't understand why people think ghosts/templars are micro intensive to use against zerg. For templars watch some of HuK vs Destiny games. For ghosts watch MVP vs July.
Snipe:
1. Can be queued and doesn't overkill.
2. With queuing it's ez pz to kill a infestor in two snipes.
3. Snipe+cloak makes it easy to get rid of overseers and EMP groups of infestors, after which they're useless for a while.
Feedback:
1. Can be queued and obviously doesn't overkill. Infestors are so big they're easy to click on.
2. One HT can kill up to four infestors.
I personally find infestors hard to use because they're so large, slow, low HP, and targeted by tanks.
When the other races learn how to use simple micro against infestors (read: keep your anti infestor units in front of your army, like zergs have been doing with infestors), we'll actually see that they're not very strong at all. I mean I don't see infestors win anyone games at the code S level.
Why not just keep your infestors burrowed and keep an overseer to deny observers? Now your infestors are immune to feedback while travelling and you don't even have to bother with microing a transport like people keep suggesting for HT versus ghosts.
And it's choice to call infestors slow when, even when burrowed, they're faster than high templar.
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Sniping the Infestors without losing your Ghosts is the tricky part.
Cloak means less snipes and if you know Ghosts are in play you should always bring an Overseer.
Never group your Infestors against Terran. Tanks and EMP will murder them if you do.
For Feedback most of the same rules apply.
Keep in mind it takes two immediate snipes to kill an Infestor, which is 50 energy.
Only when maxed can they actually kill or feedback 4 Infestors.
Keeping Infestors in the back only to quickly do a Fungal and run back can make it hard to actually get to them.
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I wasn't referring to killing infestors when they're just moving around; rather when an army:army engagement is about to happen, the infestors will have to engage unburrowed (to use fungal vs Protoss), and they will either be slightly ahead of the zerg army or on its sides. Position your HT the same and even one HT can kill up to four infestors.
Infestors are slow relative to the rest of zerg's units (roaches, lings), I guess the same could be said for HT's compared to the rest of Protosses' units (stalkers).
On September 13 2011 00:43 Thezzy wrote:
Sniping the Infestors without losing your Ghosts is the tricky part.
Cloak means less snipes and if you know Ghosts are in play you should always bring an Overseer.
Never group your Infestors against Terran. Tanks and EMP will murder them if you do.
For Feedback most of the same rules apply.
Keep in mind it takes two immediate snipes to kill an Infestor, which is 50 energy.
Only when maxed can they actually kill or feedback 4 Infestors.
Keeping Infestors in the back only to quickly do a Fungal and run back can make it hard to actually get to them.
50 Energy isn't that much to kill a powerful unit. Losing your ghosts is not really a problem because the rest of your units are better than the rest of zerg's units.
Even so, it's unlikely you will loose ghosts if cloaked since it's easy to snipe overseers; infestors are most effective when they are in front of an army. So they can fungal your stimmed marines without having the rest of the army take damage from them. Keeping infesters in the back for added DPS is about as effective as having hydras in the back; they'll just get slaughtered.
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