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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
This post should be added to OP, highlighted or w/e....there are so incredibly many stupid posts floating around, where it's obvious that the writer has never really bothered to further investigated the 3 main AoE spells of the respective races (storm, fungal, EMP).
The crucial point is, that fungal does "almost" as much damage as storm, but does this damage guaranteed while also allowing for a chain-fungal. If you hit a storm spot-on, not only will your opponent move out of it if he has semi-decent reaction time, but he will run back/split so it's next to impossible to hit the same set of units again with a 2nd storm. With fungal the opposite is true: you literally can't move the units in question, they sit there waiting for the 2nd fungal, which they will eat again for full damage.
If storm would get a buff so that the units were unable to move for ONE second, TL had to shut down for a few days due to the overwhelming QQ - and rightly so! Combining both a stun and a damage spell, not only on the same caster but literally having one spell do both was a terrible, terrible design-choice, that isn't only borderline OP, but morevoer (and that's my main concern) extremely easy to micro.
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On September 12 2011 16:42 sleepingdog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) This post should be added to OP, highlighted or w/e....there are so incredibly many stupid posts floating around, where it's obvious that the writer has never really bothered to further investigated the 3 main AoE spells of the respective races (storm, fungal, EMP). The crucial point is, that fungal does "almost" as much damage as storm, but does this damage guaranteed while also allowing for a chain-fungal. If you hit a storm spot-on, not only will your opponent move out of it if he has semi-decent reaction time, but he will run back/split so it's next to impossible to hit the same set of units again with a 2nd storm. With fungal the opposite is true: you literally can't move the units in question, they sit there waiting for the 2nd fungal, which they will eat again for full damage. If storm would get a buff so that the units were unable to move for ONE second, TL had to shut down for a few days due to the overwhelming QQ - and rightly so! Combining both a stun and a damage spell, not only on the same caster but literally having one spell do both was a terrible, terrible design-choice, that isn't only borderline OP, but morevoer (and that's my main concern) extremely easy to micro.
i agree with the micro thing, storm is a skill enhancing ability in a sense, it forces the opponent to micro away from it, on the other hand fungal is an anti skill ability, it takes little skill to execute, and theres nothing you can do about it. Same with EMP in a way, in that it cant be dodged.
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everyone on ladder is abusing the hell out of infestors right now, seeing as they are getting nerfed soon. I am glad the damage is getting nerfed, very justified balance change imo. NP nerf seems overboard, perhaps make it 7 second lasting for massive units, and mothership immune to it?
Just a thought, protoss caster HT takes the most money/time to tech up to, but they are the worst out of all 3. Infestors are getting nerfed, that's good. But what about the ghost? All you need is a ghost academy to begin producing them. And they deal instant AoE damage, can snipe, can cloak, can launch nukes, and can auto-attack. Also they cost less than the templar... IMO this would be a good time to nerf the ghost, with fungal getting nerfed. EMP should be single target, and instead of 100 energy it drains 250.
You are aware FG nerf only really affects ZvZ right? Everything still dies in same hits except for some big hitter units like colossi and thors.
"Zerg has no units to counter blink."
really dude? im all for having a mature discussion about it, but if youre just going to be silly and whine then im not going to discuss this with you
Um... okay. I wasn't being silly or whining, I'm telling you straight up nothing Zerg has counters blink. Hydras get owned by blink (especially with upgrades or sentries, such as MC vs Idra MLG metalopolis)
actually roach ultra deals with blink stalker. You simply have to micro the roaches to continuously run and fire, while the ultra provides in your face splash damage that they simply cant stand against. once you get cracklings, you have an even cheaper alternative.
No... roaches are bad vs blink, so are ultras. Roach/Ultra is just a strong unit composition, but it's not cost or supply effective at all. Try it out in unit tester. Cracklings are okay, but sentries and aoe nullify that. That, and saying "get hive to coutner something P can get on 1 base" is kind of goofy.
FG has to be chained and costs a lot of energy. It's just as micro intensive as storming... you can either splash it everywhere, or you can manage energy. Managing energy efficient FG is harder than managing energy efficient storms.
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Ah didn't know PTR is completely global now. I'm hitting nothing but Koreans this is scary >.>
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FG has to be chained and costs a lot of energy. It's just as micro intensive as storming... you can either splash it everywhere, or you can manage energy. Managing energy efficient FG is harder than managing energy efficient storms.
If you splash fungal everywhere it's a waste of energy because you are unable to land it right.
Same goes for storm.
Once you get one good fungal you can get endless good one, this is not the case for storm at all.
Each storm must be good, there is no pass as "u get one the 2 others are for free", is it ?
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On September 12 2011 16:47 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +everyone on ladder is abusing the hell out of infestors right now, seeing as they are getting nerfed soon. I am glad the damage is getting nerfed, very justified balance change imo. NP nerf seems overboard, perhaps make it 7 second lasting for massive units, and mothership immune to it?
Just a thought, protoss caster HT takes the most money/time to tech up to, but they are the worst out of all 3. Infestors are getting nerfed, that's good. But what about the ghost? All you need is a ghost academy to begin producing them. And they deal instant AoE damage, can snipe, can cloak, can launch nukes, and can auto-attack. Also they cost less than the templar... IMO this would be a good time to nerf the ghost, with fungal getting nerfed. EMP should be single target, and instead of 100 energy it drains 250. You are aware FG nerf only really affects ZvZ right? Everything still dies in same hits except for some big hitter units like colossi and thors. Show nested quote +"Zerg has no units to counter blink."
really dude? im all for having a mature discussion about it, but if youre just going to be silly and whine then im not going to discuss this with you Um... okay. I wasn't being silly or whining, I'm telling you straight up nothing Zerg has counters blink. Hydras get owned by blink (especially with upgrades or sentries, such as MC vs Idra MLG metalopolis) Show nested quote +actually roach ultra deals with blink stalker. You simply have to micro the roaches to continuously run and fire, while the ultra provides in your face splash damage that they simply cant stand against. once you get cracklings, you have an even cheaper alternative. No... roaches are bad vs blink, so are ultras. Roach/Ultra is just a strong unit composition, but it's not cost or supply effective at all. Try it out in unit tester. Cracklings are okay, but sentries and aoe nullify that. That, and saying "get hive to coutner something P can get on 1 base" is kind of goofy. FG has to be chained and costs a lot of energy. It's just as micro intensive as storming... you can either splash it everywhere, or you can manage energy. Managing energy efficient FG is harder than managing energy efficient storms.
I disagree with you. I've had good success with roach/ultra vs blink stalkers.as long as you get those critical number of upgrades, its fine. And then you just micro stutter step your roaches while ultralisks clean up behind your roaches.
I do it...
Also I'm rank 1 diamond on PTR, which is global, meaning I fight Koreans, so..
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On September 12 2011 16:46 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 16:42 sleepingdog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) This post should be added to OP, highlighted or w/e....there are so incredibly many stupid posts floating around, where it's obvious that the writer has never really bothered to further investigated the 3 main AoE spells of the respective races (storm, fungal, EMP). The crucial point is, that fungal does "almost" as much damage as storm, but does this damage guaranteed while also allowing for a chain-fungal. If you hit a storm spot-on, not only will your opponent move out of it if he has semi-decent reaction time, but he will run back/split so it's next to impossible to hit the same set of units again with a 2nd storm. With fungal the opposite is true: you literally can't move the units in question, they sit there waiting for the 2nd fungal, which they will eat again for full damage. If storm would get a buff so that the units were unable to move for ONE second, TL had to shut down for a few days due to the overwhelming QQ - and rightly so! Combining both a stun and a damage spell, not only on the same caster but literally having one spell do both was a terrible, terrible design-choice, that isn't only borderline OP, but morevoer (and that's my main concern) extremely easy to micro. i agree with the micro thing, storm is a skill enhancing ability in a sense, it forces the opponent to micro away from it, on the other hand fungal is an anti skill ability, it takes little skill to execute, and theres nothing you can do about it. Same with EMP in a way, in that it cant be dodged.
The problem is, those "anti skill abilities" Blizzard introduced are extremely hard to balance because - by nature - they kinda "ignore" skill. Which means, not even Flash himself could alleviate the damage he takes against a fungal of a bronze-player. Abilities where skill comes into play always have a tendency of "balancing themselves" as good players will find ways to overcome even seemingly strong spells.
To cut the long story short: the "anti skill abilities" where you take guaranteed damage regardless if you drink a cup of tee while playing or if you play with 400 apm are either overpowered or useless. If they are "good" then they will be heavily (ab-)used and the opponent can't do anything about it. If they suck...well...then nobody will bother using them.
I even understand the zerg players who are afraid of fungal getting crappy again. That's the problem with those spells, they are "all-or-nothing"...
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guys, I think there might've also been something important that changed with zerg too during this patch. Like you know how they patched the zerg bug that allowed things to be dodged? well, I'm not sure, but I just played a ridiculous game @ 22 minutes on PTR, and I was able to have 5000 mineral float with a full roach/ultra army, and the timings of getting pool and hatch seem to come faster too.
Im saying, does it seem to anyone else like zerg harvests minerals better?
On September 12 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 16:46 L3g3nd_ wrote:On September 12 2011 16:42 sleepingdog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) This post should be added to OP, highlighted or w/e....there are so incredibly many stupid posts floating around, where it's obvious that the writer has never really bothered to further investigated the 3 main AoE spells of the respective races (storm, fungal, EMP). The crucial point is, that fungal does "almost" as much damage as storm, but does this damage guaranteed while also allowing for a chain-fungal. If you hit a storm spot-on, not only will your opponent move out of it if he has semi-decent reaction time, but he will run back/split so it's next to impossible to hit the same set of units again with a 2nd storm. With fungal the opposite is true: you literally can't move the units in question, they sit there waiting for the 2nd fungal, which they will eat again for full damage. If storm would get a buff so that the units were unable to move for ONE second, TL had to shut down for a few days due to the overwhelming QQ - and rightly so! Combining both a stun and a damage spell, not only on the same caster but literally having one spell do both was a terrible, terrible design-choice, that isn't only borderline OP, but morevoer (and that's my main concern) extremely easy to micro. i agree with the micro thing, storm is a skill enhancing ability in a sense, it forces the opponent to micro away from it, on the other hand fungal is an anti skill ability, it takes little skill to execute, and theres nothing you can do about it. Same with EMP in a way, in that it cant be dodged. The problem is, those "anti skill abilities" Blizzard introduced are extremely hard to balance because - by nature - they kinda "ignore" skill. Which means, not even Flash himself could alleviate the damage he takes against a fungal of a bronze-player. Abilities where skill comes into play always have a tendency of "balancing themselves" as good players will find ways to overcome even seemingly strong spells. To cut the long story short: the "anti skill abilities" where you take guaranteed damage regardless if you drink a cup of tee while playing or if you play with 400 apm are either overpowered or useless. If they are "good" then they will be heavily (ab-)used and the opponent can't do anything about it. If they suck...well...then nobody will bother using them. I even understand the zerg players who are afraid of fungal getting crappy again. That's the problem with those spells, they are "all-or-nothing"...
tjhere's still the skill of placing the fungal correctly in the first place, and on which units to correctly hit with it so that the enemy army dies. these correct units to hit vary a lot with composition. If its just one colossus, its better to hit the stalkers and tear them down fast, because one colossus is easy to tank. 6 colossus, and you should know where the fungal goes. And then theres microing them into range well enough that your army doesn't 3 stooges push them infront to be raped, while still getting in range to land that fungal perfectly.
it takes a lot of skill to use it properly, results should be equal to the skill and resource investment.
If someone smart were to come up with some sort of formula for skill and resource investment as it relates to a units Reward or Effectiveness, Im sure infestor would come out a little a head, and marines would come out ridiculously beyond everything else.
just sayin.
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On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not.
I wasn't arguing that the marine is the same thing. I was comparing unit compositions.
You say the infestor works versus every race and there is no time you wouldn't make them. Well, when was the last time you saw a terran need to scout a zerg before deciding to go marine/tank? Never, right? There's nothing a Zerg can throw at well-controlled marine/tank that can't be handled with - as you acknowledge is necessary with infestors - the later addition of a few support units, be they Thors, Vikings or Ghosts, almost all the tech for which is already in play.
You say "Marine tank is nowhere near the magnitude that the infestor is." Really? You've seen more mass infestor play than terrans going marine/tank?
Don't misunderstand me: I wish Zerg had a go-to composition that wasn't mostly made up of bulky, clumsy, fragile, one-or-two-shot casters. It would be nice if the go-to composition were more distinct in each matchup, too - like they are for T and P. But I don't think it's fair to denounce infestor/ling/X for being a go-to composition, unless you're prepared to denounce the principle itself across all races.
That feeling you get when you play versus mass infestor? The frustration of knowing that it doesn't matter what you're doing, it's effectively blind-countered (to a greater or lesser extent) by properly controlled infestors? That's how I've felt, playing Zerg, ever since release. All I've ever done is try to scout, identify the response dictated by my opponent's choices, and try to make it stick before his (generally more cost-efficient and accessible) counter hits the field.
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I think at this moment Protoss has to do way to much to have a slight chance at the same things the other two races take for granted.
I remember when Science Vessel had to chaise Arbiters and Protoss had to dodge EMPs to Freeze tanks or Recall. Those were intense, fun moments. Now, Terran makes a Ghost, we all know Protoss is getting killed. It's one stupid battle per game that Protoss has very little to do about.
What I care most is about fun games, and at this moment SC2 is not at par with BroodWar regarding that factor.
About all this fuzz zerg players make about NP being nerfed. DUDES! Infestor got the least impacting nerf from all the three spells it has. If Blizzard would have nerfed FG all of you were suicidal right now. So be reasonable and admit Infestor is an OP unit at this moment and be thankful that you got away with so little.
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On September 12 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:
tjhere's still the skill of placing the fungal correctly in the first place, and on which units to correctly hit with it so that the enemy army dies.
True, and still you completely miss my point 
All of what you are saying comes down to the skill...of my opponent! I, myself can't do anything about it, I have to pray to the ancient Xel'Naga that he somehow screws up something. A very annoying way to approach a game.
Well designed skills should always allow your opponents to react. And don't give me feedback since feedback doesn't have higher range. So, again, if my opponent plays perfectly, I lose. I have to rely on him screwing up his infestor positioning.
Storm does that, since it does damage over time, therefore allowing you to move out/heal/burrow. An example for a counter-active, skill-based gameplay would be a parallel universe where toss had a spellcaster that could "take away" spells. Like disenchant or purge in warcraft 3 for orc. Opponent casts bad spell --> you cast spell on your own stuff that "takes away" the bad spell. Everthing is about reaction time and therefore skill. If you are not fast enough, the bad spell will own you. And rightly so. But you can't do nothing against fungal and EMP, you just eat it.
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On September 12 2011 17:41 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 17:24 Truedot wrote:
tjhere's still the skill of placing the fungal correctly in the first place, and on which units to correctly hit with it so that the enemy army dies. True, and still you completely miss my point All of what you are saying comes down to the skill...of my opponent! I, myself can't do anything about it, I have to pray to the ancient Xel'Naga that he somehow screws up something. A very annoying way to approach a game. Well designed skills should always allow your opponents to react. And don't give me feedback since feedback doesn't have higher range. So, again, if my opponent plays perfectly, I lose. I have to rely on him screwing up his infestor positioning. Storm does that, since it does damage over time, therefore allowing you to move out/heal/burrow. An example for a counter-active, skill-based gameplay would be a parallel universe where toss had a spellcaster that could "take away" spells. Like disenchant or purge in warcraft 3 for orc. Opponent casts bad spell --> you cast spell on your own stuff that "takes away" the bad spell. Everthing is about reaction time and therefore skill. If you are not fast enough, the bad spell will own you. And rightly so. But you can't do nothing against fungal and EMP, you just eat it.
you could argue the same with marine splitting.
I can't do anything about his skill at splitting marines making my fungals ineffective and my banelings a total waste. I have to pray he doesn't marine split before hand or do it right before I cast my spells and move my marien counter units.
And you're saying this is a problem? Seems like every race has this.
you want abilities that allow you to skill out of them to mitigate or nullify the skill.
there are simple mechanical skills that can do this beforehand.
not seeing the problem. different races are different.
I'll give you a hint, since I do want any misunderstanding to be cleared up: I play zerg, and the most irritating thing is to have a terran army spread across one and a half vertical screens worth of space, with units in 3 max clumps, completely wasting my fungals and energy and getting me killed.
And a good zerg player has to make these small groups the same way, to get good surround and concave, or else die horrible to full DPS AoE that CANNOT be avoided, i.e. siege tanks. When it hits, it deals DPS instantly, and you cant "skill" out of it.
Same with colossus.
remember, the only ranged AoE zerg has is a SPELL, which costs 75 energy, meaning you cant use it constantly. the other two races have units that can fire for infinity time dealing instant 80 DPS multiplied by how many units it hits.
come on....
Would anyone who gets their ass handed to them by 20 siege tanks already in siege mode complain about that?
Siege tanks autofire and even smart fire, all of them targetting different units so as not to waste DPS.
and this is not as bad as a manually targetted mechanical skill necessary point and spam ability, which requires good control and timing?
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On September 12 2011 16:17 susySquark wrote:Was just playing on the PTR (NA) and I ran into this guy: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GSBQb.jpg) The end of the tag looks vaguely familiar, is he on a team? I tried an absolutely preposterous 1gate expand with cannons opening which worked pretty well. I lost my expo to a timing attack but held off with a colossus... sadly it was all downhill from there. He didn't speak english either >.> (also totally manner muled me when he killed my nexus. At least I held til the third push!) Blink nerf is kinda awkward for timings. I'm too used to it being faster. Its pretty trivial for PvT, but I feel like the other 2 matchups have actually changed a lot because of it.
By the way, when playing a team game, is the actual team-league icon shown next to the name or is it always the 1on1 league icon?
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: only played 1v1 on PTR so far, that's why I'm asking.
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Neural Parasite should just be changed to a slow hit animation spell that causes the unit to turn Neutral for however long NP last now, but as neutral it kills any units closest to it, so Zerg cant control it, but it doesn't require channeling either, and it will kill zerg or protoss units.
Tjhen it can hit massive again. thats fair right?
P can mitigate the skill a lot by retreating or splitting its forces away from it, and allowing it to get angry at zerg players units and attack them, and it forces a skillfull response from P, without increasing the micro needed by Z, and also forcing some skillfull play from Z other than mass NP spam.
What you guys think?
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On September 12 2011 18:00 blAke139 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 16:17 susySquark wrote:Was just playing on the PTR (NA) and I ran into this guy: The end of the tag looks vaguely familiar, is he on a team? I tried an absolutely preposterous 1gate expand with cannons opening which worked pretty well. I lost my expo to a timing attack but held off with a colossus... sadly it was all downhill from there. He didn't speak english either >.> (also totally manner muled me when he killed my nexus. At least I held til the third push!) Blink nerf is kinda awkward for timings. I'm too used to it being faster. Its pretty trivial for PvT, but I feel like the other 2 matchups have actually changed a lot because of it. By the way, when playing a team game, is the actual team-league icon shown next to the name or is it always the 1on1 league icon? Thanks in advance. EDIT: only played 1v1 on PTR so far, that's why I'm asking.
to susySquark: if this isn't answered yet, that's the 'ProS' clan tag on the end. You may have seen it in DongRaeGu's name
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On September 12 2011 18:09 Truedot wrote:
Neural Parasite should just be changed to a slow hit animation spell that causes the unit to turn Neutral for however long NP last now, but as neutral it kills any units closest to it, so Zerg cant control it, but it doesn't require channeling either, and it will kill zerg or protoss units.
Tjhen it can hit massive again. thats fair right?
P can mitigate the skill a lot by retreating or splitting its forces away from it, and allowing it to get angry at zerg players units and attack them, and it forces a skillfull response from P, without increasing the micro needed by Z, and also forcing some skillfull play from Z other than mass NP spam.
What you guys think?
if it attacks the closest unit thats always going to be attacking us anyway unless we leave engagement or put my entire army behind your army and if it doesn't require channeling now your infestor can cast more, burrow and retreat from battle
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PTR Seems fun -> however EU -> NA ping is kinda lo olol its playable but the difference is big when u are used to playing EU all the time...
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:
Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion.
The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise.
what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true)
Well, but you can Storm the same area with more than 1 Storm. Which is twice fungals dps.
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On September 12 2011 17:38 ceaRshaf wrote:
So be reasonable and admit Infestor is an OP unit at this moment and be thankful that you got away with so little.
Please, please stop talking about units as if they existed in a vaccuum.
Yes, a lot of the tools Zerg needs to be viable happen to be concentrated in one unit. No argument there. But we do need the tools.
Let's give Vikings 6 range, because 9 is - I've arbitrarily decided - OP. Oh look: now you can no longer dip in and snipe Colossus without getting decimated by stalkers. Suddenly, bio+viking needs to become much more viking-heavy to deal with a deathball, siphoning resources and supply away from the bio army and tilting the post-colossus battle in favour of the Protoss. Although you can always land your remaining vikings to help out.
Removing the ability to NP massive units has similarly serious knock-on effects. With no way to tackle Colossus other than Corruptors, and no way to snipe the Colossus without being in range of the stalker ball, Zerg suddenly needs lots of Corruptors to have a chance of getting the job done. Which translates to lots of gas and supply, and consequently far fewer infestors, reducing the need for HT, which frees up more gas and supply for stalker/colossus. That's one reason Zerg are facepalming so hard about this change.
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EPT
