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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 13:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap!
I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply Infestors for cost will lose to chargelots. It's very hard to FG chargelots, they kill infestors (and they're usual ling accompaniment) very quickly, and they only cost minerals. They are much better than blink stalkers, that's for sure. So 3x10=30 chargelots vs 10 infestors, the chargelots will rape the infestors. Add in, say colossi and roaches, and the chargelots will own. Maybe at the lower level Protoss make stalkers instead because they think chargelots at bad and they clump them up, but at the higher level, chargelots are great against infestors, particularly with HT to FB so you can only FB a few times. It also takes a lot of FG to kill chargelots, it's a huge waste of energy you'd rather want on NP or instead money spent on other units like BL. And I know what you said about queens, you said use them as support against ghost armies, which is stupid, because of EMP and snipe.
transfuse has what 6 range? BL 9? you want ghosts to go 15 to emp some queen.
And why would it matter if your queen gets EMP, they are practically free! Less energy for ghosts, and given good micro you shouldn't get your queen emped in the first place.
Just watched dragon did pure mech and got torn apart by a max out zerg army. The exact same thing happened as I described. Either his expo or main was getting raped, and he is constantly falling behind
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On September 12 2011 13:07 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:03 Belial88 wrote:you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap!
I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply Infestors for cost will lose to chargelots. It's very hard to FG chargelots, they kill infestors (and they're usual ling accompaniment) very quickly, and they only cost minerals. They are much better than blink stalkers, that's for sure. So 3x10=30 chargelots vs 10 infestors, the chargelots will rape the infestors. Add in, say colossi and roaches, and the chargelots will own. Maybe at the lower level Protoss make stalkers instead because they think chargelots at bad and they clump them up, but at the higher level, chargelots are great against infestors, particularly with HT to FB so you can only FB a few times. It also takes a lot of FG to kill chargelots, it's a huge waste of energy you'd rather want on NP or instead money spent on other units like BL. And I know what you said about queens, you said use them as support against ghost armies, which is stupid, because of EMP and snipe. transfuse has what 6 range? BL 9? you want ghosts to go 15 to emp some queen. And why would it matter if your queen gets EMP, they are practically free! Less energy for ghosts, and given good micro you shouldn't get your queen emped in the first place.
they're half the mineral cost of an ultralisk. Hows that "practically free" look now?
Anyway, we're supposed to be talking about the possible effects of NP nerf, uiltra buff and other things relevant to P 1.4
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On September 12 2011 13:09 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:07 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 13:03 Belial88 wrote:you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap!
I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply Infestors for cost will lose to chargelots. It's very hard to FG chargelots, they kill infestors (and they're usual ling accompaniment) very quickly, and they only cost minerals. They are much better than blink stalkers, that's for sure. So 3x10=30 chargelots vs 10 infestors, the chargelots will rape the infestors. Add in, say colossi and roaches, and the chargelots will own. Maybe at the lower level Protoss make stalkers instead because they think chargelots at bad and they clump them up, but at the higher level, chargelots are great against infestors, particularly with HT to FB so you can only FB a few times. It also takes a lot of FG to kill chargelots, it's a huge waste of energy you'd rather want on NP or instead money spent on other units like BL. And I know what you said about queens, you said use them as support against ghost armies, which is stupid, because of EMP and snipe. transfuse has what 6 range? BL 9? you want ghosts to go 15 to emp some queen. And why would it matter if your queen gets EMP, they are practically free! Less energy for ghosts, and given good micro you shouldn't get your queen emped in the first place. they're half the mineral cost of an ultralisk. Hows that "practically free" look now? Anyway, we're supposed to be talking about the possible effects of NP nerf, uiltra buff and other things relevant to P 1.4
because minerals are worthless, where gas, supply, and larva is the biggest limiting factor late game
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Just to clarify, I'm a Master Zerg.
That's the problem with mech. Terran are forced to play passive. zerg can double or triple expand, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.
The best harass you can do is hellions. If you didn't catch him offguard on the first wave, you won't do any damage later on
Yea mech is pretty bad, I don't know why Zerg's are complaining about it. There are a few problems with thor/siege tank, and roaches don't actually do well against it, but because of Zerg macro, you should be able to get an inefficient army mass of roaches or mass mutas and beat it. The only way mech works is if they roast a bunch of drones with hellions, but that's like saying mass SCV is OP.
t's not a way of saying a person is stupid, it's a way of saying a person is wrong. A unit cannot be overpowered in isolation. A unit either makes a race overpowered or it doesn't. The infestor is very powerful against some units in TvZ, yet zergs don't win more than 50% of their matches against terrans, and have a very poor win rate against terran in tournaments. Therefore, the infestor cannot by definition be overpowered in TvZ. In the ZvP, the situation is different, and the infestor may very well be the source of imbalance. However, if you nerf the infestor to fix ZvP, and don't make any other changes to the race, Zerg becomes severely underpowered in ZvT, and may well become underpowered in ZvP. In order to support the infestor nerf in good faith, you need to make an argument about the unit with the context of racial balance. Otherwise you're just stating your opinion on whether or not you like a certain unit. I don't like colossi. I think they're a poorly designed unit that should never have been added to the game. However, given the current state of game balance, I would not suggest a colossi nerf.
You know, while I somewhat agree with you, you say a lot of wrong things. First off, just because a race is over 50% win rate, doesn't mean the losing race isn't overpowered in certain contexts. A unit can be OP if it's OP on it's own. So it's very possible a certain unit can be OP. Your logic is kind of... wrong.
HOWEVER, the infestor is definitely not OP in ZvT. Tank/Rine is powerful in ZvT, and going infestors for Zerg is like making more banelings, you'll own the marines but the siege tanks are still a problem and you aren't addressing it. That's why infestor openings is so bad in ZvT. It beats bad Terran who are caught out of position or who don't make siege tanks, and it may seem OP to Terran at the lower levels who don't micro and position correctly, but any competent Terran will beat it. That's why in the GSL infestor Zergs always get owned, like violet (the casters even said violet has no understanding of ZvT, at all).
And why would it matter if your queen gets EMP, they are practically free! Less energy for ghosts, and given good micro you shouldn't get your queen emped in the first place.
You would care if your queens get EMP'd because it'd make them worthless... Suddenly your 'counter' to ghosts is useless. This discussion is ridiculous though, because ghosts and ZvT are not an issue anyways.
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On September 12 2011 12:31 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:28 Belial88 wrote:I did not say queen did alot of damage, I said they were tanky. They have 175 hp as Psionic type. Aka tanks/thors/immortal/stalkers/marauders/hellions still do the minimum damage to queens. You obviously aren't really... aware. Queens lose 1v1 to a zealot, as in they fucking die. Stalkers beat them with micro. I'm not suggesting you drop your queen in the front line, or use it in the front line at all as most of you are suggesting. It should be in the back assisting, taking out the medivacs with its long range. Transfuse will be able to keep up your T3 units for a very long time, while costing almost nothing to make. Not larva, not gas. Zerg don't really have problem with minerals late game.
Queen has amazing potential with transfuse, its just one of the units that has yet to be fully explored. Note I am not saying you should mass queens and win, but they should be additional casters in your unit that helps keeping up infestors/ultra/BL alive. Transfuse is probably the most underrated ability in game, just like snipe before recent events. EMP, siege tanks, marauders, snipe, all murder queens. It's not the most effective unit to Terran's insane DPS. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. Why don't you try massing queens against Terran like that? Ling/Bane is much better against a ghost army than getting mass queens. And this is a dumb conversation, because Zerg aren't complaining about ghosts or TvZ. And I'll repeat that queens get owned by ghosts. Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. Infestors are horrible against siege tanks. Infestors aren't really viable against mech, so stop saying this change affects mech. People go either mass muta or mass roach agaisnt thor, and mutas are actually good against thors. It's thor/marine that's a problem for mutas. As for zerg. This fungal nerf wont make that much difference, will it? All it changes is 1 more FG for ghosts, vikings, and colossi and void rays. Kind of a goofy nerf, I believe people QQ'd about fungal on their marines (which is stupid, it's like saying storm is too strong when they don't make ghosts) and Zerg needed FG for colossi and void rays. A buff to hydras really is needed. Does need some care though, as the difference between OP and useless with the hydralisk seems like it would be *very* minor (think about the roach and archon range changes) Hydras already do ridiculous damage, and in very specific circumstances are scary as hell. hydras don't need a buff, they need to be removed. They have no place in this game, they are supposed to counter air but they actually get owned by mutas and phoenix (double stargate or muta openings zvz). There's no buffing or anything that could make them viable. They're cost and place in tech just needs to be totally reworked, because at the moment they are okay for all-in timing attacks against Protoss but that's it. Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage.
2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage
1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health
Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens! You are aware that Terran can double instantly snipe before Zerg regen right? And then there's EMP. you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap! I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply
Kind sir,
I believe that it is you that is missing the point not belial... While infestors do lose 1v1 to zealots(i believe you mean queens), if you would continue reading his post you would see that he elaborates why queens are not as useful as you would seem to think...These are the 2 main problems as I see it:
1. Queens are EXTREMELY immobile:
I cannot emphasize this enough... while you don't seem to see this as a large problem in reality it is... While specific strategies such as nydus'ing and mass drops might warrent incorporating an extra queen into your composition to lay a creep tumor in your opponents base or simply because there is creep under the queens in these situations allowing for increased mobility...
2. DPS and Health:
While you might think that a queen is a good "tanky" unit, in reality they are not. Not only do late game armies DPS faster than a queen can transfuse(with the exception of B-lords and Ultras) but queen energy can also be emp'd and as the above poster stated late game ghosts and double snipe literally faster than a queen can transfuse...
In reality the queen is a VERY niche unit(when used in an army).... Yes, IF a zerg is making a slow late-game B-lord infestor push across a map where they already have at least half map creep spread... then one or two queens for some clutch transfusions would not be a bad idea... but a 200/200 army is really not that large... and while transfusion is indeed a useful ability if micro'd completely properly it is both a high apm required spell and the DPS that is sacrificed for incorporationg 10 queens into your army is actually immense....
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Unfortunately for you this is irrelevant as you don't take into account unit size. A zerg army is much smaller in unit size compared to a protoss army and therefore a higher density of units are affected in the smaller space of a storm then a fungal area.
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On September 12 2011 13:10 Belial88 wrote:
You know, while I somewhat agree with you, you say a lot of wrong things. First off, just because a race is over 50% win rate, doesn't mean the losing race isn't overpowered in certain contexts. A unit can be OP if it's OP on it's own. So it's very possible a certain unit can be OP. Your logic is kind of... wrong.
The only sense in which the term "overpowered" has any meaning at all is within the context of whether the race as a whole is overpowered, and the only way sure way we have of measuring that is the rate of success in games. A unit that is situationally powerful, but does not make the race overall overpowered is just that—powerful.
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On September 12 2011 13:01 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:42 Eps wrote:
You're trying to allude to how I may have a bias against the unit by sidestepping the issue, and trying to throw personal attacks. It only strengthens my point. It does not change the fact that Infestors are still too versatile.
There may be issues in Zerg's Lair Tech units but throwing the fix-it solution all in one unit is bad for the game, as it makes it monotonous and places way too much importance and gives way too much utility on one unit. I agree that there are issues in Zerg's Lair Tech, but the solution is not to make the Infestor do Everything. It's a damn Support Caster, yet Zergs like to mass it. Actually, I never said anything about you personally. I said your arguments were without merit. That's the exact opposite of a personal attack. A unit cannot be "too versatile" outside the context of a balance discussion. Many units perform several roles. Marines provide an anti-air role, a mainstay anti-ground role and a harassing role. I could argue that the marine is therefore too versatile. However, unless the versatility of the marine creates an actual balance problem in one of the matchups, you can't argue for a nerf unless you suggest an equalizing buff. I agree that the infestor buff was a band-aid for poor racial design. But absent a real commitment from blizzard to make substantial changes before the HOTS release, nerfing NP is going to leave zergs in a very bad position. Here's a suggestion: return fungal growth to it's original duration and damage, and remove neural parasite entirely. Instead, boost hydralisk speed on creep by 50%, and increase their range by 1. Speed off creep remains unchanged.
I won't argue semantics on personal attacks or go over the whole post since it has no relevance to the topic.
The problem with the Infestor lies in exactly what their abilities can do in their match ups. It's AOE Splash with crowd control, harassment usage, and the ability to be able to potentially counter high tier units or make them obsolete for a temporary moment. It's much too convenient of a Support Caster in one neat package.
I'm not saying that Zergs should not receive a buff in response to their nerf. I would personally like to see Lair Tech improved so that there are other options, and have Hydras return to their former glory as Shock Troops like they were in BW. Zerg's Lair tech is currently messed up and needs a revision so that the solution to all their problems isn't placed exclusively on one unit.
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On September 12 2011 13:10 Belial88 wrote:
HOWEVER, the infestor is definitely not OP in ZvT.
The Infestor CAN BE extremely useful (read: OP) in ZvT. Just watch the first match of Destiny vs. TLO from the SHOUTcraft Invitational 3; they killed lots of tanks for just a little energy (and casting Infested Terrans while burrowed makes them relatively safe because the Terran wont have a Raven or Turrets everywhere).
As usual this is a SITUATIONAL OPness ... which is still bad. The weakness doesnt come from the Infestor, but rather the friendly fire of the Siege Tank splash, but where you had to drop "real units" in BW to make them hurt each other you can just use temporary fake ones in SC2. Thats something to think about IMO.
My solution would be to change the whole damage concept of the Siege Tank (and the Thor) into changing the bonus damage from Siege Tanks to "vs. light" and giving the Thor some really heavy single target damage boost against armored. This way the Siege Tanks wont eat themselves if one Zerg unit reaches them (which probably deals most of the damage to them) and the damage becomes more logical. Shrapnel from an exploding shell should be more dangerous to lightly armored units than to armored ones.
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
i like how everyone kinda glazed over this post.
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Wow these 400 pages have been a blast! I enjoyed reading them, and I feel that I learned a lot of things about the game.
Now I'm not a progamer nor a game designer. I'm not from EG so I didn't get interviewed but I'm a well-known gamer in my hometown so here's my take on this upcoming patch:
-Blizzard have no clue about what they are doing, they are lame video game developers, this patch is the biggest joke ever. There's no way Protoss will become viable in tournaments with a 1.375 speed Mothership. By the time you get a mothership with 1/1 upgrades and 2/2 on the way (around the 13:35 mark), Terran can have 7 thors, 4 hellions, 17 vikings and 1 ghost. How come Blizzard didn't think of that? And don't get me started on Mothership's range compared to Stalkers'.
-Why the barracks nerf? Looking at the recent tournaments results, it seems that Templars are only performing at 80% of their abilities because 55% of the time they are used on maps that are not favorable to them (for instance half the GSL maps feature tilesets that are detrimental to High Templars' AI). Meanwhile, Ghosts are performing at 116% for different reasons. I don't know whether you noticed it or not, but when using the Snipe spell on cross-position Antiga Shipyard, the bullet that is fired is not a regular one, it's a bullet made of titanium. In addition to that, the Zerg creep recedes at approximatively 25 pixels per in-game second. So all in all, no wonder why Ghosts easily destroy the other races' spellcasters. This is the hard truth of TvZ and TvP: unless the player loses the game, he'll always win.
-The Infestors' build time should be increased by 25%, their speed should be reduced by 15% and Neural Parasite should be an area-of-effect spell, that permanently mind controls units and instantly teleports them to the nearest hatchery. I don't care about ZvP because Collossus is underpowered but this could fix ZvT; last week, I heard Ret say that his D key is damaged because he's been making so many drones. With the aforementioned proposed changes, Zerg would be able to steal SCVs, while Terran would use MULEs to even out the economy. Also I agree with someone else, once you miss your early game initial ghost nuke harass timing window, then nukes become useless, no matter what.
There is absolutely no question about that, trust me, I'm a high diamond - low grandmasters random player.
Anyway just let me know if this post needs more blizzard bashing, more nonsensical theorycrafting, more baseless statements, or even more pointless suggestions. I got tons of them, and let it be known that david kim loves them (I have his personal email address).
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On September 12 2011 12:53 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:38 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 12:12 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 11:16 Belisarius wrote:On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa. But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size. Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit. Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size. So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal. I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell. Actually, because of issues with: square mathematical units, round radii, and whatever shape units the game has, you're going to waste more space with larger units, and fill the space more efficiently with small ones. But that's really irrelevant, I merely posted to show that pure math only tells some of the story. I'm certainly not going to call fungal a weak spell, but it's silly to suggest its damage output is 89% of what storm's. Just because it's surprising, doesn't mean it's silly. Unless you mean silly like "it's crazy that it actually is that close." The strength of the comparison is only that fungal has greater range. 1:1, it does 1/2 dps. Every tiny bit of space left empty or taken up by large units makes the fungal range advantage smaller. So fungal does somewhere between 50%-89% the dps of storm. The post that suggested it was always 89% dps was irresponsibly claiming the maximum as guaranteed. People are getting excited, both here and on reddit, by the damage power of fungal. I'm simply pointing out that the numbers are easily misleading. You are missing some key points It is not the range that is greater. It is the area of effect that is greater. That means that spreading out units helps less against fungal than it does against storm. And if there is a bigger ball, fungal will hit more targets than storm will. The idea is not that fungal will deal more damage to each individual unit, but that the damage done to all units together will combine to be 89% of a full storm. That is another point you need to look at. Fungal has the potential to do 89% percent of the damage of a FULL STORM. And we all know that no one ever eats a full storm. Therefore if micro is employed to dodge after being stormed, a fungal on the same group of units will most likely deal more damage, since units have to take the full duration of a fungal. Now you can argue that if the opponent splits their units before the fungal goes off, the damage will be less. But the damage of a storm will be even lower than that of the fungal if the same micro is performed against it.
You are correct that I used 'range' when 'radius' would have been the best term. However, by your own argument, spreading units will be equally as effective against fungal as storm.
*shrug* It all comes down to its place in an arsenal. Fungal is zerg's only ranged splash, it has to be pretty good damage.
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On September 12 2011 13:10 Belial88 wrote:Just to clarify, I'm a Master Zerg. Show nested quote +That's the problem with mech. Terran are forced to play passive. zerg can double or triple expand, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.
The best harass you can do is hellions. If you didn't catch him offguard on the first wave, you won't do any damage later on Yea mech is pretty bad, I don't know why Zerg's are complaining about it. There are a few problems with thor/siege tank, and roaches don't actually do well against it, but because of Zerg macro, you should be able to get an inefficient army mass of roaches or mass mutas and beat it. The only way mech works is if they roast a bunch of drones with hellions, but that's like saying mass SCV is OP.
Mech is not bad at all.
You don't have to play passive. You only need to have 3-4 siege tanks at your natural and 2-3 with your PF third along with a few hellions to prevent any runbys. Then of course you just missle turret it up to prevent mutas. At that point, a good Zerg will be taking his 4th, maybe 5th base? Go with your army and siege it up the zerg EXPOS. There is absolutely no point in going to attack the Zerg directly, you just leave yourself viable to a surround or one accidental unsiege. Also, around the 17-18 minute range, the main is almost mined out, the natural is 5-6 minutes away from being close to mined out, so Zerg is getting most of their mining form the 3rd, 4th, and incoming 5th base. Taking out the expos not only forces the Zerg to attack before BLs (or before enough BLs are out), it also cuts off their main new income. Mech is about forcing a contain, and the only way to beat good Terran contains is with BLs, which get raped by ghosts, because BLs need Infestors, and EMP is range 10 and fungal is range 9. Assuming equal micro, ghosts win.
That is why Idra thinks ghost mech is imba, it's just that Terrans haven't learned it yet. Give it time.
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On September 12 2011 12:53 WesleyLok wrote:
Infesters are not hard countered by seige tanks. They counter seige tanks.
Quoted for lulz.
Siege tanks have 4 range on fungal/NP, and 2-shot infestors. Their role is to hold off the infestors in a marine/tank composition.
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On September 12 2011 13:33 AlBundy wrote:
Wow these 400 pages have been a blast! I enjoyed reading them, and I feel that I learned a lot of things about the game.
Now I'm not a progamer nor a game designer. I'm not from EG so I didn't get interviewed but I'm a well-known gamer in my hometown so here's my take on this upcoming patch:
-Blizzard have no clue about what they are doing, they are lame video game developers, this patch is the biggest joke ever. There's no way Protoss will become viable in tournaments with a 1.375 speed Mothership. By the time you get a mothership with 1/1 upgrades and 2/2 on the way (around the 13:35 mark), Terran can have 7 thors, 4 hellions, 17 vikings and 1 ghost. How come Blizzard didn't think of that? And don't get me started on Mothership's range compared to Stalkers'.
-Why the barracks nerf? Looking at the recent tournaments results, it seems that Templars are only performing at 80% of their abilities because 55% of the time they are used on maps that are not favorable to them (for instance half the GSL maps feature tilesets that are detrimental to High Templars' AI). Meanwhile, Ghosts are performing at 116% for different reasons. I don't know whether you noticed it or not, but when using the Snipe spell on cross-position Antiga Shipyard, the bullet that is fired is not a regular one, it's a bullet made of titanium. In addition to that, the Zerg creep recedes at approximatively 25 pixels per in-game second. So all in all, no wonder why Ghosts easily destroy the other races' spellcasters. This is the hard truth of TvZ and TvP: unless the player loses the game, he'll always win.
-The Infestors' build time should be increased by 25%, their speed should be reduced by 15% and Neural Parasite should be an area-of-effect spell, that permanently mind controls units and instantly teleports them to the nearest hatchery. I don't care about ZvP because Collossus is underpowered but this could fix ZvT; last week, I heard Ret say that his D key is damaged because he's been making so many drones. With the aforementioned proposed changes, Zerg would be able to steal SCVs, while Terran would use MULEs to even out the economy. Also I agree with someone else, once you miss your early game initial ghost nuke harass timing window, then nukes become useless, no matter what.
There is absolutely no question about that, trust me, I'm a high diamond - low grandmasters random player.
Anyway just let me know if this post needs more blizzard bashing, more nonsensical theorycrafting, more baseless statements, or even more pointless suggestions. I got tons of them, and let it be known that david kim loves them (I have his personal email address).
I'm sure Blizzard is overwhelmed with gratitude by your willingness to go to the plate for them.
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I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but there's also some minor ui improvements. The score screen looks nicer and shows your opponent's league symbol next to their name for instance.
Also the immortal feels really strong now that it doesn't waddle around aimlessly half the time.
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The only sense in which the term "overpowered" has any meaning at all is within the context of whether the race as a whole is overpowered, and the only way sure way we have of measuring that is the rate of success in games. A unit that is situationally powerful, but does not make the race overall overpowered is just that—powerful.
I disagree - Stalker/Colossi/HT can be OP, but if Protoss loses 50% of their games to 6 pool, that doesnt change the fact that stalker/colossi/HT is OP. it just means that either the metagame can account for what's going on, or that early game Protoss is UP and late game P is OP.
I understand what you're trying to say - for example, Ultralisk/BL/Queen is 'op', even though realistically it is impossible to attain in a game. But just because that stage is hard to get to, doesn't mean it isn't OP and doesn't need to get nerfed.
The problem with the Infestor lies in exactly what their abilities can do in their match ups. It's AOE Splash with crowd control, harassment usage, and the ability to be able to potentially counter high tier units or make them obsolete for a temporary moment. It's much too convenient of a Support Caster in one neat package.
So are marines OP because of their versatility? No, it just makes it a 'safe' unit. Infestors are balanced by not having an attack like ghosts or ability like merge archon which causes FB/EMP to be extremely deadly, whereas EMP/FB isn't as detrimental to the other races. You EMP our infestors, and suddenly, all Zerg has is a mass of zerglings. With Protoss, you can FF and back off and merge archons, or ghosts can continue firing (granted, these both hurt, but not as much as making our infestors useless).
The Infestor CAN BE extremely useful (read: OP) in ZvT. Just watch the first match of Destiny vs. TLO from the SHOUTcraft Invitational 3; they killed lots of tanks for just a little energy (and casting Infested Terrans while burrowed makes them relatively safe because the Terran wont have a Raven or Turrets everywhere).
That is hardly relevant. TLO got caught out of position with no detection. You might as well complain that burrowed banelings are OP. If TLO had a turret, raven, or scanned correctly, Destiny would have been fucking smashed. If those were burrowed banelings, Destiny would have won the game all the same.
You may not have a raven or turret, but good game sense should have let TLO know burrowed infestors were there. Also, burrowing infestors like that does not come without huge risk, in that game it just paid off with a huge reward. If TLO had scanned, which he should have known to do against a siege up infestor player who already revealed burrow, Destiny would have lost those infestors for nothing and just been fucked with only have lings against marine/tank.
The weakness doesnt come from the Infestor, but rather the friendly fire of the Siege Tank splash, but where you had to drop "real units" in BW to make them hurt each other you can just use temporary fake ones in SC2. Thats something to think about IMO.
You are aware siege tanks have double the range of IT spam right? It's more like hold position lurkers - if it works, it pays off immensely. If Terran scans, and you lose all your lurkers, it's GG.
-The Infestors' build time should be increased by 25%, their speed should be reduced by 15% and Neural Parasite should be an area-of-effect spell, that permanently mind controls units and instantly teleports them to the nearest hatchery. I don't care about ZvP because Collossus is underpowered but this could fix ZvT; last week, I heard Ret say that his D key is damaged because he's been making so many drones. With the aforementioned proposed changes, Zerg would be able to steal SCVs, while Terran would use MULEs to even out the economy. Also I agree with someone else, once you miss your early game initial ghost nuke harass timing window, then nukes become useless, no matter what.
No way. There are countless games where Protoss goes FFE, and Zerg goes 2 base infestor, and still doesn't get infestors in time to deal with gateway pushes. Infestors already take way too long to get out, and right now any t1 push comes before infestor tech, as does just getting the counter in reaction. You can easily get ghosts or HT when you spot infestation pit thrown down, and have it come out in time. Infestors take longer to make and tech to than any other spellcaster right now.
Think of infestors as HT. If P tries to get them, you just go kill them as T. You can contain, expand, and macro up and just a-move with 3 base mass marines. You could get ghosts, and counter him. But if P gets those HT out with storm, you're pretty fucked. That's why Zerg has to mass spines when going infestors, and that's why they are so terrible. Any good player will back off and take a third, and win. 2 base infestor is horrible against Protoss, it just works against Protoss who don't know infestor timings and don't expand.
... i just got trolled. well played.
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On September 12 2011 14:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:41 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 12:39 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:33 Proflo wrote:On September 12 2011 12:02 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:00 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. terran can not support a siege/thor/marine off 2 bases. Unless you're talking about mostly marine/tank with 1 thor, then its not mech build is it? The most terran can support at 2 bases is 1.5 factories pumping siege tanks. You either get siege or thors, you can't get both I am still waiting on zerg telling me why queen is bad as assist caster units. Its cheap, tanky, no larva requirement, good AA / long range, and have one of the strongest ability rival with snipe in game, without the need to suffer production (larva) or any gas to it. Sure it has its own weakness such as mobility, but its not something that can't be overcome. Zerg don't initiates fight that are not on their creep anyway, and late game can have overlord drop or overlord generate creep/creep tumor support. This is just false overall... As a two base terran going mech you can easily support 4 factories 3 with tech lab and 1 with reactor going hellion/tank or 3 factories if going thor/hellion/tank 4 if your macro is slipping even a small fraction.... this is while taking a third (aka continuing scv production) and upgrading off of 1 armory... As for why queens aren't used as an assist caster unit... That fact of the matter is that while you can discount mobility as something which can be easily overcome, in most cases it can't... With terrible DPS,horrible "tanky"(lol) abilities, and a healing spell which is virtually useless before B-lord/ultra tech queens are simply put not worth the two supply unless they are next to a hatchery spawning larvae... with the exception of a single excess queen to lay addition creep tumors incorporating queens as a support unit is not nearly as feasible as you make it sound... Not trying to sounds at all bias here I am a masters(mid-low-low-low) level random player, but you understanding of this particular matchup seems to be lacking somewhat, or I have misunderstood your point... Either way the argument being made that a 2base terran push with 4-ish thors and a solid 6-10 tanks along with blue flame hellion support is indeed extremely difficult to stop. Terran mech is and extremely difficult playstyle to counter especially if B-lord/infestor tech transitions are being kept in check and countered.... The fact of the matter is that a terran keeping on top of a zergs hive and infestor timings can transition into Vikings and ghosts in time to easily fend of the usual game ending zerg composition.... Theres a reason I go mech TvZ, and theres a reason I 2 base roach with ovie drops against a meching terran ZvT I hate it when people reply out of context. I specifically said queen as viable unit for late game, not early or mid (although still not a bad unit to have). It boggles me how people don't find queen as tanky, 175hp unit that takes no gas, no larva, and does not take any bonus damage is tanky in my book. Mobility should really not be that big of a problem considered terran is usually the aggressor that will step on your creep. You could even use overlord as transport (which you needed anyway against mech terran). You sir have very good ideas. And , what do you think about uprooted spine crawler, roughly the same speed as queen (faster off creep), almost twice as much HP, and they take no supply. Make 50 uprooted spines, and go for the big battle. Of course, your army should stay behind the spine, because obviously, if your tanky units are not in front they will tank nothing. But that's not a problem, since zerg almost always have the range advantage. I think you should fuck off. Where the hell is the ignore button when you need it. If you have an argument, post it. No need to be a jackass. I hate reading sarcastic posts that are just competely worthless. But i'm going to reply to your post seriously anyway. Spinecrawlers root time takes too long, and takes too long to make. They provide no use in actual battle, whereas queen can keep your T3 units alive. Their mobility cannot be addressed, whereas you can actually do something about it to queens. You also can't create spinecrawlers from hatcheries Being tanky is still important, even absorbing couple of tanks shot could make a difference in a battle outcome.
But dude, queens take up 2 supply. That's another Infestor you could've had, 4 more lings, 1 muta, 1 roach, etc. Those little things can change a battle a lot more than a queen can, especially late game.
The only use for queens late game is MAYBE Ultra/Queen/Infestor or something, but it would take some impeccable micro and creep spread.
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EPT
