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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 12:28 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +A buff to hydras really is needed. Does need some care though, as the difference between OP and useless with the hydralisk seems like it would be *very* minor (think about the roach and archon range changes) Hydras already do ridiculous damage, and in very specific circumstances are scary as hell. hydras don't need a buff, they need to be removed. They have no place in this game, they are supposed to counter air but they actually get owned by mutas and phoenix (double stargate or muta openings zvz). There's no buffing or anything that could make them viable. They're cost and place in tech just needs to be totally reworked, because at the moment they are okay for all-in timing attacks against Protoss but that's it.
I'll have to also say this is so true.
Hydras are just so useless like 99% of the time unless it's some weird all-in before collosi, which is.... Lol... otherwise, it's just a unit both T and P would like you to make...because it's totally retarded to do so (tanks and collosi+ff's)...there are more effective ways to handle air.
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On September 12 2011 12:26 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:44 Eps wrote:
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's. If you want to nerf the infestor simply because you don't like the unit, regardless of the effect of such a nerf on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit.
"If you want to keep the infestor strong and in a possibly overpowered state simply because you like the unit, regardless of the effect it has on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit."
See how I took your statement and turned it back on you. Arguments phrased like that are just a wordy way of calling the other person stupid.
You have good points, but so does the other side. I will say that both casters for terran and Zerg(infestors and Ghost) are really messing up the match ups right now. I don't like the way we are being forced to play the game and I think it should be played.
The NP change might be the way, but I doubt it. Infested terrans were one of the most underused abilities in the game and it might be that it was a little broken all this time. Or maybe people need to adjust.
But I don't like a snare power that does damage. It prevent micro, makes players afraid to poke. It cancels out quick units that befitting from mirco. I don't want zerg to be underpowered, but I would rather they had a power that didn't lock down units and kill them too.
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If the balancing team at blizzard thinks zerg is this overpowered right now that they need to basically neuter the infestor when zerg hasn't really had that much dominance in tournaments while buffing protoss I dont think we'll see any reworkings until heart of the swarm. I think blizzard is scared of changing the game too much at this point, they're probably thinking "eh just wait until HotS to fix zerg". I don't see any easy fix for this that doesn't involve completely changing every zerg matchup.
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On September 12 2011 12:14 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:12 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 11:16 Belisarius wrote:On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa. But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size. Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit. Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size. So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal. I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell. Actually, because of issues with: square mathematical units, round radii, and whatever shape units the game has, you're going to waste more space with larger units, and fill the space more efficiently with small ones. But that's really irrelevant, I merely posted to show that pure math only tells some of the story. I'm certainly not going to call fungal a weak spell, but it's silly to suggest its damage output is 89% of what storm's. Just because it's surprising, doesn't mean it's silly. Unless you mean silly like "it's crazy that it actually is that close."
The strength of the comparison is only that fungal has greater range. 1:1, it does 1/2 dps. Every tiny bit of space left empty or taken up by large units makes the fungal range advantage smaller. So fungal does somewhere between 50%-89% the dps of storm. The post that suggested it was always 89% dps was irresponsibly claiming the maximum as guaranteed.
People are getting excited, both here and on reddit, by the damage power of fungal. I'm simply pointing out that the numbers are easily misleading.
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On September 12 2011 12:33 Proflo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:02 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:00 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. terran can not support a siege/thor/marine off 2 bases. Unless you're talking about mostly marine/tank with 1 thor, then its not mech build is it? The most terran can support at 2 bases is 1.5 factories pumping siege tanks. You either get siege or thors, you can't get both I am still waiting on zerg telling me why queen is bad as assist caster units. Its cheap, tanky, no larva requirement, good AA / long range, and have one of the strongest ability rival with snipe in game, without the need to suffer production (larva) or any gas to it. Sure it has its own weakness such as mobility, but its not something that can't be overcome. Zerg don't initiates fight that are not on their creep anyway, and late game can have overlord drop or overlord generate creep/creep tumor support. This is just false overall... As a two base terran going mech you can easily support 4 factories 3 with tech lab and 1 with reactor going hellion/tank or 3 factories if going thor/hellion/tank 4 if your macro is slipping even a small fraction.... this is while taking a third (aka continuing scv production) and upgrading off of 1 armory... As for why queens aren't used as an assist caster unit... That fact of the matter is that while you can discount mobility as something which can be easily overcome, in most cases it can't... With terrible DPS,horrible "tanky"(lol) abilities, and a healing spell which is virtually useless before B-lord/ultra tech queens are simply put not worth the two supply unless they are next to a hatchery spawning larvae... with the exception of a single excess queen to lay addition creep tumors incorporating queens as a support unit is not nearly as feasible as you make it sound... Not trying to sounds at all bias here I am a masters(mid-low-low-low) level random player, but you understanding of this particular matchup seems to be lacking somewhat, or I have misunderstood your point... Either way the argument being made that a 2base terran push with 4-ish thors and a solid 6-10 tanks along with blue flame hellion support is indeed extremely difficult to stop. Terran mech is and extremely difficult playstyle to counter especially if B-lord/infestor tech transitions are being kept in check and countered.... The fact of the matter is that a terran keeping on top of a zergs hive and infestor timings can transition into Vikings and ghosts in time to easily fend of the usual game ending zerg composition.... Theres a reason I go mech TvZ, and theres a reason I 2 base roach with ovie drops against a meching terran ZvT
I hate it when people reply out of context. I specifically said queen as viable unit for late game, not early or mid (although still not a bad unit to have). It boggles me how people don't find queen as tanky, 175hp unit that takes no gas, no larva, and does not take any bonus damage is tanky in my book. Mobility should really not be that big of a problem considered terran is usually the aggressor that will step on your creep. You could even use overlord as transport (which you needed anyway against mech terran).
I was wrong about the factory part though, I forgot mech terran does not need to get starport. Still I doubt you can add that 4th factory until you have saturated your second base.
And please, show me a replay where terran did a 4 thor,6-10tank, and hellion timing pushes off 2 base without zerg already max out on army and also not close to BL tech.
yes, EMP is good against queen yada but you're not really losing anything getting your queen emped. Less energy for their ghosts and queen are cheap units. Late game is always the fight for gas, not minerals
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On September 12 2011 12:26 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:44 Eps wrote:
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's. It did all of these things 6 months ago, and zerg still struggled with terrans and protoss. Zerg currently still has a lot of trouble vs. terran, regardless of how many fungals it takes to kill a marine. You're making arguments about a unit completely divorced of its context within the game. If you actually give a shit about balancing the races, then you'll stop speaking in vagaries about the "versatility" of a unit, and actually consider the role the infestor plays within the zerg army, and the reasons why it has to be as versatile as it is. Were the blizzard balance team to actually do their jobs and properly balance the race, rather than instituting half-assed stop gaps as a way to bridge the time until HOTS, you could nerf the infestor without severely damaging game balance. As it is, zerg players, who've already suffered more than either of the other two races as a result of poor game design, are going to be out in the cold again if the NP nerf goes through. If you want to nerf the infestor simply because you don't like the unit, regardless of the effect of such a nerf on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit.
You're trying to allude to how I may have a bias against the unit by sidestepping the issue, and trying to throw personal attacks. It only strengthens my point. It does not change the fact that Infestors are still too versatile.
There may be issues in Zerg's Lair Tech units but throwing the fix-it solution all in one unit is bad for the game, as it makes it monotonous and places way too much importance and gives way too much utility on one unit. I agree that there are issues in Zerg's Lair Tech, but the solution is not to make the Infestor do Everything. It's a damn Support Caster, yet Zergs like to mass it.
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On September 12 2011 09:17 Duckvillelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) I've beene saying this about fungal vs storm now for a long time, especially when Zerg players bring up the "well storm does more dps!" argument which is ridiculous. Thank you for providing some numbers and such, I would have done so myself but I don't have the maths brain for that haha  I agree with your suggestions, personally I would think that option b) would be best. Too many stalker armies just die to something like ling/inf, it's quite frustrating.
Why are you making stalkers vs Ling/Festor it sounds like you want to make one unit that beats everything and if something counters it its obviously overpowered right?
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On September 12 2011 12:28 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:25 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave. [I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them] sure, but as zerg you can easily trade supply of roaches for thors and keep his count low. Terran will not be able to produce any feasible amount of thors/tanks by the time you max out. Mech terran suffers the same problem as protoss late game, if not worse. Most zerg respond to mech terran by massing roaches, adding in infestors once their economy kicks in, to eventually Brood lords. NP is really overkill and not needed, and won't effect TvZ at any rate And I lol at the other guy bringing in scvs as if that means anything. Say hi to fungals and banelings
inefficiently trading armies continuously to "keep his count low" means eventually you run out of army and he has a thor left over to start owning your base. you do realize thats inherently part of your argument, no?
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On September 12 2011 12:47 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:28 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:25 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave. [I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them] sure, but as zerg you can easily trade supply of roaches for thors and keep his count low. Terran will not be able to produce any feasible amount of thors/tanks by the time you max out. Mech terran suffers the same problem as protoss late game, if not worse. Most zerg respond to mech terran by massing roaches, adding in infestors once their economy kicks in, to eventually Brood lords. NP is really overkill and not needed, and won't effect TvZ at any rate And I lol at the other guy bringing in scvs as if that means anything. Say hi to fungals and banelings inefficiently trading armies continuously to "keep his count low" means eventually you run out of army and he has a thor left over to start owning your base. you do realize thats inherently part of your argument, no?
mech terran is like protoss, minus the forcefield.
the zerg will max out at 200 supply before terran can hit 130. You can trade army for his without even need to care cause you're maxed anyway. Its incredibly hard for terran to establish a 3rd, near impossible for 4th, if you go mech route.
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On September 12 2011 12:38 RedHelix wrote:
If the balancing team at blizzard thinks zerg is this overpowered right now that they need to basically neuter the infestor when zerg hasn't really had that much dominance in tournaments while buffing protoss I dont think we'll see any reworkings until heart of the swarm. I think blizzard is scared of changing the game too much at this point, they're probably thinking "eh just wait until HotS to fix zerg". I don't see any easy fix for this that doesn't involve completely changing every zerg matchup.
I dont pay people more money to fix something they screwed up and arent willing to fix for free. First they fix it, then, if I really like what they did, and I mean REALLY like, I'll pay them again for another go around. I'm also not a mindless THX1138 consumer, but hey, the majority of people are so..
En-ron or banking bailouts. Choose which one you'd rather have. these are the options if you're saying "Give them more money to fix it".
On September 12 2011 12:50 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:47 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 12:28 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:25 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave. [I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them] sure, but as zerg you can easily trade supply of roaches for thors and keep his count low. Terran will not be able to produce any feasible amount of thors/tanks by the time you max out. Mech terran suffers the same problem as protoss late game, if not worse. Most zerg respond to mech terran by massing roaches, adding in infestors once their economy kicks in, to eventually Brood lords. NP is really overkill and not needed, and won't effect TvZ at any rate And I lol at the other guy bringing in scvs as if that means anything. Say hi to fungals and banelings inefficiently trading armies continuously to "keep his count low" means eventually you run out of army and he has a thor left over to start owning your base. you do realize thats inherently part of your argument, no? mech terran is like protoss, minus the forcefield. the zerg will max out at 200 supply before terran can hit 130. You can trade army for his without even need to care cause you're maxed anyway. Its incredibly hard for terran to establish a 3rd, near impossible for 4th, if you go mech route.
you're theorycrafting something that isn't true. Do it yourself and come back andtell us this works. I actually play zerg and know it doesn't. In a fight where T plays completely passive, maybe so. Not otherwise.
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On September 12 2011 12:38 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:14 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 12:12 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 11:16 Belisarius wrote:On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa. But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size. Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit. Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size. So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal. I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell. Actually, because of issues with: square mathematical units, round radii, and whatever shape units the game has, you're going to waste more space with larger units, and fill the space more efficiently with small ones. But that's really irrelevant, I merely posted to show that pure math only tells some of the story. I'm certainly not going to call fungal a weak spell, but it's silly to suggest its damage output is 89% of what storm's. Just because it's surprising, doesn't mean it's silly. Unless you mean silly like "it's crazy that it actually is that close." The strength of the comparison is only that fungal has greater range. 1:1, it does 1/2 dps. Every tiny bit of space left empty or taken up by large units makes the fungal range advantage smaller. So fungal does somewhere between 50%-89% the dps of storm. The post that suggested it was always 89% dps was irresponsibly claiming the maximum as guaranteed. People are getting excited, both here and on reddit, by the damage power of fungal. I'm simply pointing out that the numbers are easily misleading.
You are missing some key points
It is not the range that is greater. It is the area of effect that is greater. That means that spreading out units helps less against fungal than it does against storm. And if there is a bigger ball, fungal will hit more targets than storm will. The idea is not that fungal will deal more damage to each individual unit, but that the damage done to all units together will combine to be 89% of a full storm.
That is another point you need to look at. Fungal has the potential to do 89% percent of the damage of a FULL STORM. And we all know that no one ever eats a full storm. Therefore if micro is employed to dodge after being stormed, a fungal on the same group of units will most likely deal more damage, since units have to take the full duration of a fungal.
Now you can argue that if the opponent splits their units before the fungal goes off, the damage will be less. But the damage of a storm will be even lower than that of the fungal if the same micro is performed against it.
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On September 12 2011 11:50 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +...... Are you in bronze league?
Marines are HARD COUNTERED by colossus, high templar, banelings, infesters, tanks, hellions.
Infesters are soft countered with extreme micro with ghosts and high templar, while hard-countering pretty much every unit in the game except for ghosts and high templar.
Do you see the difference? .......Are you in Diamond league? See what I did there? I can be an asshole who makes ad hominem attacks too, instead of speaking my disagreement. Infestors are hard countered by siege tanks, ghosts, and high templar. They are soft countered by colossi with support, chargelots, marauders, thors, phoenix, and ravens. They hardly hard counter every unit in the game, they are most the expensive caster of the races, take the longest to get out, and completely lack aggressive ability, allowing the other races free reign to tech up to the cheaper counters and macro up. Not to mention it means no mutas, so Terran can drop all day, and Protoss can expand. Marines are more like soft countered by banelings, and only cost minerals.
I spoke my disagreement clearly, you must have some visual problems if you cant see past my questioning your game knowledge.
Infesters are not hard countered by seige tanks. They counter seige tanks.
They are not soft countered by colossi, chargelots maurauders, thors, phoenix or ravens.
Stuff like this is why I believe you must be at bronze league and not play at a high level. "Um those units can like attack infesters rite? infesters cnat attack so dey must counter dem lawl"
No. Just No.
Oh, and out of all those units, the only one that can get close enough to attack is the colossus if you actually know how to micro and fungal instead of a-moving your infesters with your army.
Marines hard countered by banelings. Sure with good micro you can lower the damage slightly, but thats like saying immortals dont counter maurauders cause marauders can micro.
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On September 12 2011 12:42 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:26 pwadoc wrote:On September 12 2011 11:44 Eps wrote:
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's. It did all of these things 6 months ago, and zerg still struggled with terrans and protoss. Zerg currently still has a lot of trouble vs. terran, regardless of how many fungals it takes to kill a marine. You're making arguments about a unit completely divorced of its context within the game. If you actually give a shit about balancing the races, then you'll stop speaking in vagaries about the "versatility" of a unit, and actually consider the role the infestor plays within the zerg army, and the reasons why it has to be as versatile as it is. Were the blizzard balance team to actually do their jobs and properly balance the race, rather than instituting half-assed stop gaps as a way to bridge the time until HOTS, you could nerf the infestor without severely damaging game balance. As it is, zerg players, who've already suffered more than either of the other two races as a result of poor game design, are going to be out in the cold again if the NP nerf goes through. If you want to nerf the infestor simply because you don't like the unit, regardless of the effect of such a nerf on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit. You're trying to allude to how I may have a bias against the unit by sidestepping the issue, and trying to throw personal attacks. It only strengthens my point. It does not change the fact that Infestors are still too versatile. There may be issues in Zerg's Lair Tech units but throwing the fix-it solution all in one unit is bad for the game, as it makes it monotonous and places way too much importance and gives way too much utility on one unit. I agree that there are issues in Zerg's Lair Tech, but the solution is not to make the Infestor do Everything. It's a damn Support Caster, yet Zergs like to mass it.
I don't think any zergs would object to an infestor nerf while being given a much needed buff elsewhere. The reason why I feel this update is going to break the zerg matchups is that zerg wasn't winning everything before this, protoss was having trouble with terran while pvz skewed in the way of who casted the better spells. Now with the infestor nerf and nothing to compensate(the ultralisk buff does pretty much the same as the blink nerf, just speedens the production of an inneficient unit against most compositions while the blink nerf just delays the powerful upgrade a little) for the loss/protoss warp prism and immortal buffs, I feel like theres going to be a bigger imbalance than what was claimed before.
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On September 12 2011 12:50 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:47 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 12:28 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:25 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave. [I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them] sure, but as zerg you can easily trade supply of roaches for thors and keep his count low. Terran will not be able to produce any feasible amount of thors/tanks by the time you max out. Mech terran suffers the same problem as protoss late game, if not worse. Most zerg respond to mech terran by massing roaches, adding in infestors once their economy kicks in, to eventually Brood lords. NP is really overkill and not needed, and won't effect TvZ at any rate And I lol at the other guy bringing in scvs as if that means anything. Say hi to fungals and banelings inefficiently trading armies continuously to "keep his count low" means eventually you run out of army and he has a thor left over to start owning your base. you do realize thats inherently part of your argument, no? mech terran is like protoss, minus the forcefield. the zerg will max out at 200 supply before terran can hit 130. You can trade army for his without even need to care cause you're maxed anyway. Its incredibly hard for terran to establish a 3rd, near impossible for 4th, if you go mech route.
Youre not using mech right if you are unable to establish a 3rd and 4th its extremely easy to turtle vs Zerg with mech Zerg cant really attack into you the only disadvantage to mech is its immobillity
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you're theorycrafting something that isn't true. Do it yourself and come back andtell us this works. I actually play zerg and know it doesn't. In a fight where T plays completely passive, maybe so. Not otherwise.
That's the problem with mech. Terran are forced to play passive. zerg can double or triple expand, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.
The best harass you can do is hellions. If you didn't catch him offguard on the first wave, you won't do any damage later on
Youre not using mech right if you are unable to establish a 3rd and 4th its extremely easy to turtle vs Zerg with mech Zerg cant really attack into you the only disadvantage to mech is its immobillity
If terran grabs a 3rd or 4th, you attack it. If that place is fortified, you drop on his main. It'll take centuries for his mech force to retreat, and if he splits, you can easily overrun one side.
Sure, on some maps its easy to grab that 3rd due to close position. But 4th is stretching it. You're just writhing down his force and his econ until you buy enough time for broods/infestors
If you prefer using mutas over roach, it will work too as long as you don't clump them and catch a few lonely thors here and there.
funny dragon is streaming right now, and he's using pure mech. watch a few games and see if he can manage or not.
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/SlayerS_Dragon
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On September 12 2011 12:37 Plansix wrote:
"If you want to keep the infestor strong and in a possibly overpowered state simply because you like the unit, regardless of the effect it has on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit."
See how I took your statement and turned it back on you. Arguments phrased like that are just a wordy way of calling the other person stupid.
You have good points, but so does the other side. I will say that both casters for terran and Zerg(infestors and Ghost) are really messing up the match ups right now. I don't like the way we are being forced to play the game and I think it should be played.
The NP change might be the way, but I doubt it. Infested terrans were one of the most underused abilities in the game and it might be that it was a little broken all this time. Or maybe people need to adjust.
But I don't like a snare power that does damage. It prevent micro, makes players afraid to poke. It cancels out quick units that befitting from mirco. I don't want zerg to be underpowered, but I would rather they had a power that didn't lock down units and kill them too.
It's not a way of saying a person is stupid, it's a way of saying a person is wrong. A unit cannot be overpowered in isolation. A unit either makes a race overpowered or it doesn't. The infestor is very powerful against some units in TvZ, yet zergs don't win more than 50% of their matches against terrans, and have a very poor win rate against terran in tournaments. Therefore, the infestor cannot by definition be overpowered in TvZ. In the ZvP, the situation is different, and the infestor may very well be the source of imbalance. However, if you nerf the infestor to fix ZvP, and don't make any other changes to the race, Zerg becomes severely underpowered in ZvT, and may well become underpowered in ZvP. In order to support the infestor nerf in good faith, you need to make an argument about the unit with the context of racial balance. Otherwise you're just stating your opinion on whether or not you like a certain unit. I don't like colossi. I think they're a poorly designed unit that should never have been added to the game. However, given the current state of game balance, I would not suggest a colossi nerf.
On September 12 2011 12:42 Eps wrote:
You're trying to allude to how I may have a bias against the unit by sidestepping the issue, and trying to throw personal attacks. It only strengthens my point. It does not change the fact that Infestors are still too versatile.
There may be issues in Zerg's Lair Tech units but throwing the fix-it solution all in one unit is bad for the game, as it makes it monotonous and places way too much importance and gives way too much utility on one unit. I agree that there are issues in Zerg's Lair Tech, but the solution is not to make the Infestor do Everything. It's a damn Support Caster, yet Zergs like to mass it.
Actually, I never said anything about you personally. I said your arguments were without merit. That's the exact opposite of a personal attack.
A unit cannot be "too versatile" outside the context of a balance discussion. Many units perform several roles. Marines provide an anti-air role, a mainstay anti-ground role and a harassing role. I could argue that the marine is therefore too versatile. However, unless the versatility of the marine creates an actual balance problem in one of the matchups, you can't argue for a nerf unless you suggest an equalizing buff.
I agree that the infestor buff was a band-aid for poor racial design. But absent a real commitment from blizzard to make substantial changes before the HOTS release, nerfing NP is going to leave zergs in a very bad position.
Here's a suggestion: return fungal growth to it's original duration and damage, and remove neural parasite entirely. Instead, boost hydralisk speed on creep by 50%, and increase their range by 1. Speed off creep remains unchanged.
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you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap!
I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply
Infestors for cost will lose to chargelots. It's very hard to FG chargelots, they kill infestors (and they're usual ling accompaniment) very quickly, and they only cost minerals. They are much better than blink stalkers, that's for sure. So 3x10=30 chargelots vs 10 infestors, the chargelots will rape the infestors. Add in, say colossi and roaches, and the chargelots will own. Maybe at the lower level Protoss make stalkers instead because they think chargelots at bad and they clump them up, but at the higher level, chargelots are great against infestors, particularly with HT to FB so you can only FB a few times.
It also takes a lot of FG to kill chargelots, it's a huge waste of energy you'd rather want on NP or instead money spent on other units like BL.
And I know what you said about queens, you said use them as support against ghost armies, which is stupid, because of EMP and snipe.
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
i read the math and all that jazz but FULL storm = 80 dmg which is far more than a fungal.
lings will almost always die to one storm
lings will never ever ever die to one fungal.
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Man I totally agree, like your entire argument makes soo much sense since 2 infestors can morph into a unit that counters all zerg units(Biological)
Wait, wait nm they fucking cant.
And its not like Infestors cost more either...
Wait a second they do!!!
Wow this guy is a fucking genious!
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On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. when you go mech terran, you play defensive unless you do extraordinary damage with initial hellion push (pray he doesn't have roach), and hope your opponent is too noob to not max out before you reach 140 supply Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors
tlo has a 3 thor 5 tank timing push
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EPT
