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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 14:21 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:41 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 12:39 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:33 Proflo wrote:On September 12 2011 12:02 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:00 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. terran can not support a siege/thor/marine off 2 bases. Unless you're talking about mostly marine/tank with 1 thor, then its not mech build is it? The most terran can support at 2 bases is 1.5 factories pumping siege tanks. You either get siege or thors, you can't get both I am still waiting on zerg telling me why queen is bad as assist caster units. Its cheap, tanky, no larva requirement, good AA / long range, and have one of the strongest ability rival with snipe in game, without the need to suffer production (larva) or any gas to it. Sure it has its own weakness such as mobility, but its not something that can't be overcome. Zerg don't initiates fight that are not on their creep anyway, and late game can have overlord drop or overlord generate creep/creep tumor support. This is just false overall... As a two base terran going mech you can easily support 4 factories 3 with tech lab and 1 with reactor going hellion/tank or 3 factories if going thor/hellion/tank 4 if your macro is slipping even a small fraction.... this is while taking a third (aka continuing scv production) and upgrading off of 1 armory... As for why queens aren't used as an assist caster unit... That fact of the matter is that while you can discount mobility as something which can be easily overcome, in most cases it can't... With terrible DPS,horrible "tanky"(lol) abilities, and a healing spell which is virtually useless before B-lord/ultra tech queens are simply put not worth the two supply unless they are next to a hatchery spawning larvae... with the exception of a single excess queen to lay addition creep tumors incorporating queens as a support unit is not nearly as feasible as you make it sound... Not trying to sounds at all bias here I am a masters(mid-low-low-low) level random player, but you understanding of this particular matchup seems to be lacking somewhat, or I have misunderstood your point... Either way the argument being made that a 2base terran push with 4-ish thors and a solid 6-10 tanks along with blue flame hellion support is indeed extremely difficult to stop. Terran mech is and extremely difficult playstyle to counter especially if B-lord/infestor tech transitions are being kept in check and countered.... The fact of the matter is that a terran keeping on top of a zergs hive and infestor timings can transition into Vikings and ghosts in time to easily fend of the usual game ending zerg composition.... Theres a reason I go mech TvZ, and theres a reason I 2 base roach with ovie drops against a meching terran ZvT I hate it when people reply out of context. I specifically said queen as viable unit for late game, not early or mid (although still not a bad unit to have). It boggles me how people don't find queen as tanky, 175hp unit that takes no gas, no larva, and does not take any bonus damage is tanky in my book. Mobility should really not be that big of a problem considered terran is usually the aggressor that will step on your creep. You could even use overlord as transport (which you needed anyway against mech terran). You sir have very good ideas. And , what do you think about uprooted spine crawler, roughly the same speed as queen (faster off creep), almost twice as much HP, and they take no supply. Make 50 uprooted spines, and go for the big battle. Of course, your army should stay behind the spine, because obviously, if your tanky units are not in front they will tank nothing. But that's not a problem, since zerg almost always have the range advantage. I think you should fuck off. Where the hell is the ignore button when you need it. If you have an argument, post it. No need to be a jackass. I hate reading sarcastic posts that are just competely worthless. But i'm going to reply to your post seriously anyway. Spinecrawlers root time takes too long, and takes too long to make. They provide no use in actual battle, whereas queen can keep your T3 units alive. Their mobility cannot be addressed, whereas you can actually do something about it to queens. You also can't create spinecrawlers from hatcheries Being tanky is still important, even absorbing couple of tanks shot could make a difference in a battle outcome.
And I think you should cry more. He's right in his arguments over queens, so you're just going in illogical circles with him for no reason. How else can he respond to that apart from just going full sarcasm?
On September 12 2011 13:47 SetStndbySmn wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but there's also some minor ui improvements. The score screen looks nicer and shows your opponent's league symbol next to their name for instance.
Also the immortal feels really strong now that it doesn't waddle around aimlessly half the time.
Umm, Immortals are already really damn strong. anyone who knows wghat they're doing at high levels does some army MICRO to get immortals in range, with a buffer of stalkers all around them. But apparently Protoss cry until they get a range buff instead of learning how to micro.
I can assume from the way some people have been successful with immortals prior to 1.4 "gimme Im a protoss" patch, they are ex-zerg players or they have watched and taken note of how zerg players, with their INFERIOR RANGES, have managed to micro the army and do well in fights, despite a range handicap.
It cantbe that some players are just lazy and don't want to micro can it? I mean, some people of protoss seem able to do it. There must be something wrong with the unit that necessitates a buff of range instead of health or armor.
On September 12 2011 13:59 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The only sense in which the term "overpowered" has any meaning at all is within the context of whether the race as a whole is overpowered, and the only way sure way we have of measuring that is the rate of success in games. A unit that is situationally powerful, but does not make the race overall overpowered is just that—powerful. I disagree - Stalker/Colossi/HT can be OP, but if Protoss loses 50% of their games to 6 pool, that doesnt change the fact that stalker/colossi/HT is OP. it just means that either the metagame can account for what's going on, or that early game Protoss is UP and late game P is OP. I understand what you're trying to say - for example, Ultralisk/BL/Queen is 'op', even though realistically it is impossible to attain in a game. But just because that stage is hard to get to, doesn't mean it isn't OP and doesn't need to get nerfed. Show nested quote +The problem with the Infestor lies in exactly what their abilities can do in their match ups. It's AOE Splash with crowd control, harassment usage, and the ability to be able to potentially counter high tier units or make them obsolete for a temporary moment. It's much too convenient of a Support Caster in one neat package. So are marines OP because of their versatility? No, it just makes it a 'safe' unit. Infestors are balanced by not having an attack like ghosts or ability like merge archon which causes FB/EMP to be extremely deadly, whereas EMP/FB isn't as detrimental to the other races. You EMP our infestors, and suddenly, all Zerg has is a mass of zerglings. With Protoss, you can FF and back off and merge archons, or ghosts can continue firing (granted, these both hurt, but not as much as making our infestors useless). Show nested quote +The Infestor CAN BE extremely useful (read: OP) in ZvT. Just watch the first match of Destiny vs. TLO from the SHOUTcraft Invitational 3; they killed lots of tanks for just a little energy (and casting Infested Terrans while burrowed makes them relatively safe because the Terran wont have a Raven or Turrets everywhere). That is hardly relevant. TLO got caught out of position with no detection. You might as well complain that burrowed banelings are OP. If TLO had a turret, raven, or scanned correctly, Destiny would have been fucking smashed. If those were burrowed banelings, Destiny would have won the game all the same. You may not have a raven or turret, but good game sense should have let TLO know burrowed infestors were there. Also, burrowing infestors like that does not come without huge risk, in that game it just paid off with a huge reward. If TLO had scanned, which he should have known to do against a siege up infestor player who already revealed burrow, Destiny would have lost those infestors for nothing and just been fucked with only have lings against marine/tank. Show nested quote +The weakness doesnt come from the Infestor, but rather the friendly fire of the Siege Tank splash, but where you had to drop "real units" in BW to make them hurt each other you can just use temporary fake ones in SC2. Thats something to think about IMO. You are aware siege tanks have double the range of IT spam right? It's more like hold position lurkers - if it works, it pays off immensely. If Terran scans, and you lose all your lurkers, it's GG. Show nested quote +-The Infestors' build time should be increased by 25%, their speed should be reduced by 15% and Neural Parasite should be an area-of-effect spell, that permanently mind controls units and instantly teleports them to the nearest hatchery. I don't care about ZvP because Collossus is underpowered but this could fix ZvT; last week, I heard Ret say that his D key is damaged because he's been making so many drones. With the aforementioned proposed changes, Zerg would be able to steal SCVs, while Terran would use MULEs to even out the economy. Also I agree with someone else, once you miss your early game initial ghost nuke harass timing window, then nukes become useless, no matter what. No way. There are countless games where Protoss goes FFE, and Zerg goes 2 base infestor, and still doesn't get infestors in time to deal with gateway pushes. Infestors already take way too long to get out, and right now any t1 push comes before infestor tech, as does just getting the counter in reaction. You can easily get ghosts or HT when you spot infestation pit thrown down, and have it come out in time. Infestors take longer to make and tech to than any other spellcaster right now. Think of infestors as HT. If P tries to get them, you just go kill them as T. You can contain, expand, and macro up and just a-move with 3 base mass marines. You could get ghosts, and counter him. But if P gets those HT out with storm, you're pretty fucked. That's why Zerg has to mass spines when going infestors, and that's why they are so terrible. Any good player will back off and take a third, and win. 2 base infestor is horrible against Protoss, it just works against Protoss who don't know infestor timings and don't expand. ... i just got trolled. well played.
and I agree with the point of a unit being potentially OP even if the game ends and it wasnt used. If the unit itself is a game ender or game switcher on such a huger level, it doesn't matter that it can be shut down before it gets there.
What you have in those situations is a "beat the clock" scenario, where if you don't do something by X time to get rid of player Y, you automatically lose, barring some incredible luck and play on your part.
that is good for games where an actual clock limit is imposed between players. but not in this strategy game.
BTW, SC2 is not chess. SC2 is strategy, but not chess or chess-like. because in Chess, you don't have build orders, you don't have strategies that you plan far in advance, you have to change up your play with the modifications the opposing player makes. A bit like if someone was going roach/ling and then thew on an extra gas and got hydras for bling hydra against some marine banshee play that got thrown at them.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 13:16 Mojar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) Unfortunately for you this is irrelevant as you don't take into account unit size. A zerg army is much smaller in unit size compared to a protoss army and therefore a higher density of units are affected in the smaller space of a storm then a fungal area.
Your missing the point, for a protoss player, having a full group of units fungaled is nearly the equivalent as having that same group of units sit underneath a full length psi-storm, Except they cant move out of it
*Edit* Shit, didnt wanna waste my 500th post on something as petty as this.... FML
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To everyone in this thread:
A lot of silly posters come out when Blizzard announces a potential balance change. Discussing balance can be fun and enlightening, but when a poster is simply advocating for their race, discussion is a waste of time.
If you think a poster is making nonsensical points, ignore them. Blizzard does not listen to them. I know it's very difficult, but if they're advocating for their race as opposed to arguing balance, no progress can be made.
Again, if a poster gives you the wrong vibe, IGNORE THEM. Don't even tell them you're ignoring them, just don't respond and talk to someone more sensible.
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Spinecrawlers root time takes too long, and takes too long to make. They provide no use in actual battle, whereas queen can keep your T3 units alive. Their mobility cannot be addressed, whereas you can actually do something about it to queens. You also can't create spinecrawlers from hatcheries
Being tanky is still important, even absorbing couple of tanks shot could make a difference in a battle outcome.
It's not the queen's immobility that prevents them from being useful, it's how long it takes to get them. Sure, 15 queens would be better, but why do that when you can throw away 100 banelings, then instantly remax with 100 zerglings?
I don't know why your still arguing with people about this, ghosts and ZvT are just fine. No one said ZvT was imbalanced or that ghosts were impossible to deal with.
Your missing the point, for a protoss player, having a full group of units fungaled is nearly the equivalent as having that same group of units sit underneath a full length psi-storm, Except they cant move out of it
No, it's nothing like that. It's more like having a full group of units sit under a storm, that is much weaker, with units that are much more durable, takes 3x as long to do the same damage, and you must lose a couple HT every time you do it, except the HT is more expensive, takes longer to tech to, and the support army is just much weaker than the opposing army.
Again, if a poster gives you the wrong vibe, IGNORE THEM. Don't even tell them you're ignoring them, just don't respond and talk to someone more sensible.
That kind of just leads to everyone being dicks to people they don't agree with.
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And I think you should cry more. He's right in his arguments over queens, so you're just going in illogical circles with him for no reason. How else can he respond to that apart from just going full sarcasm?
There was no illogical circle. What boiled down was queen did not have good enough mobility from lack of creep, and I responded with either using queen drop or better creep spread. People then cited that creeps are not reliable, yet personally I notice every big ZvT matches have zerg having creep covered at least half of the map for every late game ZvT.
Going full sarcasm achieves nothing. If he finds fault in my argument, go ahead. I agree that queens are not useful outside of T3 support, but since Terran are also getting deadweight units to snipe broodlords and ultra, I don't see any fault in grabbing 2-3 queens to counter.
Yes, supply dead weight is an issue, but real question here is if its worth it having 10 less lings compare to being able to have 5 extra queens to keep your T3 units alive.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Great post.All Blizzard needs to do honestly is remove the immobilization from Fungal and make it a slow instead, so you can at least SORT OF dodge it like Storm. They can even return the damage to what it was. Something like a 30% slow seems reasonable.
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On September 12 2011 14:44 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +And I think you should cry more. He's right in his arguments over queens, so you're just going in illogical circles with him for no reason. How else can he respond to that apart from just going full sarcasm? There was no illogical circle. What boiled down was queen did not have good enough mobility from lack of creep, and I responded with either using queen drop or better creep spread. People then cited that creeps are not reliable, yet personally I notice every big ZvT matches have zerg having creep covered at least half of the map for every late game ZvT. Going full sarcasm achieves nothing. If he finds fault in my argument, go ahead. I agree that queens are not useful outside of T3 support, but since Terran are also getting deadweight units to snipe broodlords and ultra, I don't see any fault in grabbing 2-3 queens to counter. Yes, supply dead weight is an issue, but real question here is if its worth it having 10 less lings compare to being able to have 5 extra queens to keep your T3 units alive.
Ok so now your saying 2-3 queens total very late game for a very specific push... This is at very least an understandable concept although not logical... As a zerg you want your late game composition to consist of as much gas per unit as possible... so your question of whether i would like my last 10 supply to be of queens of infestors/corrupters/any unit that costs gas... i will ALWAYS choose the gas unit specifically infestors..
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On September 12 2011 14:49 Scila wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) Great post.All Blizzard needs to do honestly is remove the immobilization from Fungal and make it a slow instead, so you can at least SORT OF dodge it like Storm. They can even return the damage to what it was. Something like a 30% slow seems reasonable.
but then a major issue is do you allow units to blink when fungaled? if its a slow it doesnt make sense for units to not be able to blink out, but at the same time it makes fungal too weak
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^ no way, Zerg has no units to counter blink. Hydras, lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, bl, everything but infestors is owned by blink. Sentries and upgrades make it even more one sided.
Making FG slow rather than stop wouldn't change anything, and you can dodge FG. Maybe if medivacs had an aoe restoration spell (that you had to cast) that would be helpful, but Terran should always be fucked if they go against infestors without ghosts or siege tanks. And HT FB just fucks infestors so hard, as do colossi with support and micro.
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Oh god I came in this thread, read one quotation and one post, and I don't think I'll ever return. Grow up guys..
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On September 12 2011 14:32 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 13:47 SetStndbySmn wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but there's also some minor ui improvements. The score screen looks nicer and shows your opponent's league symbol next to their name for instance.
Also the immortal feels really strong now that it doesn't waddle around aimlessly half the time. Umm, Immortals are already really damn strong. anyone who knows wghat they're doing at high levels does some army MICRO to get immortals in range, with a buffer of stalkers all around them. But apparently Protoss cry until they get a range buff instead of learning how to micro. I can assume from the way some people have been successful with immortals prior to 1.4 "gimme Im a protoss" patch, they are ex-zerg players or they have watched and taken note of how zerg players, with their INFERIOR RANGES, have managed to micro the army and do well in fights, despite a range handicap. It cantbe that some players are just lazy and don't want to micro can it? I mean, some people of protoss seem able to do it. There must be something wrong with the unit that necessitates a buff of range instead of health or armor.
I'm unsure where in my post I said the immortal is bad now. I'm unsure where in my post I said that I felt the immortal was too hard to micro on live. Now I do recall making a statement about how it feels stronger than before (who would have thought that a buffed unit would feel stronger?!). I'm sure you'll understand that you come across as very young to me. Can someone with reading comprehension > than a 5th grade level verify for me that I never opened a dialogue regarding how warranted the immortal change is?
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On September 12 2011 11:15 Mafs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) How about you go into unit tester and try this out instead of doing fancy math(I like math don't worry) and test it for real. This doesn't incorporate unit collosion size, which makes a whole world of a difference. Fungal only hits about 8 more zerglings or something like that and only 2-3 more roachs. For the total damage storm still hits more.
even if you don't realize it yet your argument strenghens my point.
Especially the Zergling example 
+ Show Spoiler +
for those who don't get it, alot less Overkill is also another advantage of Fungal.
(1 fungal vs. 1 Storm = fungal kills more zerglings
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everyone on ladder is abusing the hell out of infestors right now, seeing as they are getting nerfed soon. I am glad the damage is getting nerfed, very justified balance change imo. NP nerf seems overboard, perhaps make it 7 second lasting for massive units, and mothership immune to it?
Just a thought, protoss caster HT takes the most money/time to tech up to, but they are the worst out of all 3. Infestors are getting nerfed, that's good. But what about the ghost? All you need is a ghost academy to begin producing them. And they deal instant AoE damage, can snipe, can cloak, can launch nukes, and can auto-attack. Also they cost less than the templar... IMO this would be a good time to nerf the ghost, with fungal getting nerfed. EMP should be single target, and instead of 100 energy it drains 250.
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this is suprising...but i still think fungal needs to be strong...all our ground units are so garbage weak we need something with some spunk to help support them
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On September 12 2011 14:56 Belial88 wrote:
^ no way, Zerg has no units to counter blink. Hydras, lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, bl, everything but infestors is owned by blink. Sentries and upgrades make it even more one sided.
Making FG slow rather than stop wouldn't change anything, and you can dodge FG. Maybe if medivacs had an aoe restoration spell (that you had to cast) that would be helpful, but Terran should always be fucked if they go against infestors without ghosts or siege tanks. And HT FB just fucks infestors so hard, as do colossi with support and micro.
"Zerg has no units to counter blink."
really dude? im all for having a mature discussion about it, but if youre just going to be silly and whine then im not going to discuss this with you
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On September 12 2011 15:00 Endymion wrote:
Oh god I came in this thread, read one quotation and one post, and I don't think I'll ever return. Grow up guys..
but growing up is lame and boring.
On September 12 2011 14:56 Belial88 wrote:
^ no way, Zerg has no units to counter blink. Hydras, lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, bl, everything but infestors is owned by blink. Sentries and upgrades make it even more one sided.
Making FG slow rather than stop wouldn't change anything, and you can dodge FG. Maybe if medivacs had an aoe restoration spell (that you had to cast) that would be helpful, but Terran should always be fucked if they go against infestors without ghosts or siege tanks. And HT FB just fucks infestors so hard, as do colossi with support and micro.
actually roach ultra deals with blink stalker. You simply have to micro the roaches to continuously run and fire, while the ultra provides in your face splash damage that they simply cant stand against. once you get cracklings, you have an even cheaper alternative.
The number one problem with these counters? They get easily shut down by the protoss throwing in a handful of zealots and colossus. :\
otherwise, its a slightly tougher fight than with fungal to shut down blink, and stalkers live a little longer, killing more of your army, but until you're shut down hard by some mass damage and attention grabbing blocker units, you can roll a stalker army decently enough.
the Problem is ultralisks do shitty damage to anything non-armored. so psi, bio, light, all take very little damage from ultra, which doesn't make sense. I'd say Ultras need to be buffed to 20 damage vs all with their +armored damage remaining the same (its 35 I believe with +4 per up? This is also what makes ultras far better if you invest at least +2 into them before fielding them), and maybe 30(+2) to Psionic, just because archons shit on ultras so badly. they have huge health, they do their ridiculously high bonus damage to all zerg, and they take minimal damage from all zerg units.
On September 12 2011 15:13 SetStndbySmn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 14:32 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 13:47 SetStndbySmn wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but there's also some minor ui improvements. The score screen looks nicer and shows your opponent's league symbol next to their name for instance.
Also the immortal feels really strong now that it doesn't waddle around aimlessly half the time. Umm, Immortals are already really damn strong. anyone who knows wghat they're doing at high levels does some army MICRO to get immortals in range, with a buffer of stalkers all around them. But apparently Protoss cry until they get a range buff instead of learning how to micro. I can assume from the way some people have been successful with immortals prior to 1.4 "gimme Im a protoss" patch, they are ex-zerg players or they have watched and taken note of how zerg players, with their INFERIOR RANGES, have managed to micro the army and do well in fights, despite a range handicap. It cantbe that some players are just lazy and don't want to micro can it? I mean, some people of protoss seem able to do it. There must be something wrong with the unit that necessitates a buff of range instead of health or armor. I'm unsure where in my post I said the immortal is bad now. I'm unsure where in my post I said that I felt the immortal was too hard to micro on live. Now I do recall making a statement about how it feels stronger than before (who would have thought that a buffed unit would feel stronger?!). I'm sure you'll understand that you come across as very young to me. Can someone with reading comprehension > than a 5th grade level verify for me that I never opened a dialogue regarding how warranted the immortal change is?
Your insults would be more effective if you were actually good at comprehension yourself.
Also the immortal feels really strong now that it doesn't waddle around aimlessly half the time
Immortal -> Really strong -> Waddle aimlessly half the time.
unit. IS better. Than doing nothing.
that indicates the immortal is bad now. which you're stating you didn't say. You didnt say it feels stronger than before, but you said it feels strong instead of being useless (waddling around aimlessly).
I made counter arguments about how an immortal can be used 100% of the time if you micro. and then you ad homimen. Have a nice day.
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On September 12 2011 15:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 14:56 Belial88 wrote:
^ no way, Zerg has no units to counter blink. Hydras, lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, bl, everything but infestors is owned by blink. Sentries and upgrades make it even more one sided.
Making FG slow rather than stop wouldn't change anything, and you can dodge FG. Maybe if medivacs had an aoe restoration spell (that you had to cast) that would be helpful, but Terran should always be fucked if they go against infestors without ghosts or siege tanks. And HT FB just fucks infestors so hard, as do colossi with support and micro. "Zerg has no units to counter blink." really dude? im all for having a mature discussion about it, but if youre just going to be silly and whine then im not going to discuss this with you
Blink stalkers is perhaps the only composition that zerg actually needs the added dps of fungal growth to kill. MC, HuK, Naniwa, and Puzzle (especially vs. Sheth) have all shown well-microed blink stalkers against non-infestors are like banelings vs. stim marines: even if they're the "counter", micro can flip it on its head.
By the way, a no-content post calling somebody out for being immature is basically the pot calling the kettle black.
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Was just playing on the PTR (NA) and I ran into this guy:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GSBQb.jpg)
The end of the tag looks vaguely familiar, is he on a team? I tried an absolutely preposterous 1gate expand with cannons opening which worked pretty well. I lost my expo to a timing attack but held off with a colossus... sadly it was all downhill from there. He didn't speak english either >.> (also totally manner muled me when he killed my nexus. At least I held til the third push!)
Blink nerf is kinda awkward for timings. I'm too used to it being faster. Its pretty trivial for PvT, but I feel like the other 2 matchups have actually changed a lot because of it.
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On September 12 2011 16:15 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 15:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Belial88 wrote:
^ no way, Zerg has no units to counter blink. Hydras, lings, roaches, mutas, ultras, bl, everything but infestors is owned by blink. Sentries and upgrades make it even more one sided.
Making FG slow rather than stop wouldn't change anything, and you can dodge FG. Maybe if medivacs had an aoe restoration spell (that you had to cast) that would be helpful, but Terran should always be fucked if they go against infestors without ghosts or siege tanks. And HT FB just fucks infestors so hard, as do colossi with support and micro. "Zerg has no units to counter blink." really dude? im all for having a mature discussion about it, but if youre just going to be silly and whine then im not going to discuss this with you Blink stalkers is perhaps the only composition that zerg actually needs the added dps of fungal growth to kill. MC, HuK, Naniwa, and Puzzle (especially vs. Sheth) have all shown well-microed blink stalkers against non-infestors are like banelings vs. stim marines: even if they're the "counter", micro can flip it on its head. By the way, a no-content post calling somebody out for being immature is basically the pot calling the kettle black.
see, this is the issue, when the game makers did it, they want the back and forth aspect of the game, and to introduce "skills" (we're assuming that, and based on what they explicitly stated on camera, skill means constantly spamming clicks on units in front of your ball and spamming their blink spell to get them to the back row), and at a small scale, I feel its okay. but these skills are so strong, that on a larger scale, the become imbalanced.
blink is the same problem as infestor, then.
zerg has lower range, and can't outrange protoss. it either needs something thats very long range and mobile, like hydralisk with 2.5 speed and 8-9 range to "skill" snipe the damaged stalkers that are trying to hide in the back, Or zerg needs a way to stand up to an army that can prolong its lifespan 300% while doign the same amount of damage for the entire fight, as it doesn't lose any units for the entire fight if you don't fungal them in place.
This would be the 1 supply 2 armor roach job, to be the everliving mass of units to compete with this 'skill" play.
but zerg doesn't even have that now.
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On September 12 2011 16:17 susySquark wrote:Was just playing on the PTR (NA) and I ran into this guy: The end of the tag looks vaguely familiar, is he on a team? I tried an absolutely preposterous 1gate expand with cannons opening which worked pretty well. I lost my expo to a timing attack but held off with a colossus... sadly it was all downhill from there. He didn't speak english either >.> (also totally manner muled me when he killed my nexus. At least I held til the third push!)
Isn't PTR global now, so why NA?
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EPT
