|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 11:29 pwadoc wrote:
The most obnoxious part about all of this is that no one ever complained about infestors when fungal rooted for 8 seconds and did less damage. Now infestors move slower, die faster, and root for less time. The only thing that has changed from 6 months ago is that fungal does more DPS. The only real change on the protoss side is that 4 gates are significantly less powerful, and archons are somewhat stronger.
Unsurprisingly, the discussion has traveled far beyond the borders of the absurd. If protoss incorporate templar into their compostions, and don't clump them up so that they can all be fungaled, you can largely mitigate infestor use. Zergs aren't rolling 200/200 protoss deathballs with only lings, roaches and infestors. The changes in this patch, minus the NP nerf, are more than sufficient to address the balance complaints of protoss players. The immortal range alone is going to mean a huge reduction in effectiveness of roach compositions.
I agree. It took me a while to get behind these patch changes, but they will definitely be good for the game. The warp prism hp buff will make emerging styles of multi-pronged harass by toss much less flimsy. And the immortal range buff will do wonders to mitigate the cost-effectiveness of mass roaches in the midgame by zerg. The new immortals will be great base defenders, paired with cannons and forcefields. And the two buffs even work together to do fun albeit apm-intensive harass like the tank drop micro from BW.
This patch is almost exactly what the doctor ordered for PvZ (still iffy on the neural change). I just hope the small tweaks to terran do their job as well.
|
glad they nerfed the infestor a little. some redudant changes like rax timing and contaminate. im happy with the reduced radius up ramps.
|
On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot.
Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep?
Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair.
explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas?
Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool.
|
On September 12 2011 11:38 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:35 Eps wrote:
That's the main issue, the DPS increased. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can. That's why people dislike it. Really? Because I see a lot of posts complaining about neural parasite, infested terrans, and the rooting effect of fungal growth, the former two of which have no changed since beta, and the latter which has actually been nerfed. Fungal growth DPS is now being nerfed. So I guess there's nothing to complain about, and we can have our NP back?
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's.
|
...... Are you in bronze league?
Marines are HARD COUNTERED by colossus, high templar, banelings, infesters, tanks, hellions.
Infesters are soft countered with extreme micro with ghosts and high templar, while hard-countering pretty much every unit in the game except for ghosts and high templar.
Do you see the difference?
.......Are you in Diamond league? See what I did there? I can be an asshole who makes ad hominem attacks too, instead of speaking my disagreement.
Infestors are hard countered by siege tanks, ghosts, and high templar. They are soft countered by colossi with support, chargelots, marauders, thors, phoenix, and ravens.
They hardly hard counter every unit in the game, they are most the expensive caster of the races, take the longest to get out, and completely lack aggressive ability, allowing the other races free reign to tech up to the cheaper counters and macro up. Not to mention it means no mutas, so Terran can drop all day, and Protoss can expand.
Marines are more like soft countered by banelings, and only cost minerals.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Seriously? I don't think Zerg is QQing about ghosts at all, but queens can be EMPd you realize right? And snipe destroys queens. Queens are far from 'tanky'. Overlord drop for queens is a terrible idea against Terran (you know why Zerg never baneling bombs Terran right?), and queens are horribly immobile.
There are situations where Ultra/BL/Queen is necessary against ghost/mech though, but queens definitely is not a good 'counter' for ghosts. You just have to use mass ling/bane, and hopefully killed enough siege tanks with your ultras and BLs from earlier.
Infestors for Zerg is like, I don't know, Ghost/Mech for Terran or Carrier/HT/VR for Protoss. It's ridiculously impossible and stupid late to get, but when it's out, it owns. Well, infestors have extreme vulnerabilities, but they take a long time and cost to get, which Terran can simply outmacro Zerg.
Not to mention that infestors are horrible as an opening in ZvT. No good Terran is having trouble with infestor openings at the top level, it's why ling/bane/muta is superior and preferred by the best players.
|
On September 12 2011 11:39 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:59 sh4w wrote:On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts I have to agree here. I don't understand why you would want to play by just making the same unit over and over vs everything. Protoss was like that for a while with the colossus and it was dreadful. Thats the point. do you think zerg players want to make the same units every game? fuck no. its awful. Yet I try to play infestor-free in every single game on ladder. Know where I'm stuck? Diamond. I go to a tournament, and beat the shit out of top 8 masters from NA ladder and even a GM or 2. I go back to ladder, stuck at diamond, because the w/l rate is too even for me while NOT using infestors. Infestors are made to counter everything because of what Dustin Browder, in all his infinite wisdom, tried to do to the game to make it an e-sport. he tried to make it like football, with as he puts it "degrees of success" and "losing by a little or a lot" and "these "skill factors" are why the poor noobs hate me". For instance. stim is supposed to, in his words, change the relationship of marines to banelings, even though they both move equal speed before stim. suddenly marines don't get countered by banelings anymore, they can kill banelings in huge numbers, because of stim. Then zerg gets baneling speed. On creep, they can catch and deal with marines. Off creep, the relationship is supposedly changed by speed, but marines still move as fast, and this time there's splash damage units like tanks to take out the banelings. so in a vacuum, the relationships changed, but then throw additional units into the mix, and you can see that although the relationship changes back and then (sort of, remember marine damage still goes through the roof) back again with zerg getting bane speed, at that time in the game this relationship stops mattering because of other units like siege tanks. Even a small number of hellions can kill off banelings, because banelings have such low health. This is just a small part of the puzzle. What does it mean? It means that DB and Kim david made the game to go back and forth to make it more "exciting for esports". In reality, these back and forth researches become maginfied or nullified by increasing time length into the game. Like for instance, marines kiting banelings through siege tanks and then turning around to finish the remaining ones off with stim. DB and KD both have made it a point that marine spread is supposed to be one of those "degree of success skill things" that helps a person win. but then why is stim necessary? Shouldn't marine spread and tanks be enough? This is why zerg has infestor. It is supposed to stop marines from running, or neural parasite tanks (yes, even the helptips while loading state this), and in all other words be the utility caster for the zerg. Yet it costs so much investment just to make it that strong. Think about how difficult it is to research and get raven up to Utility status. Only with zerg you actually NEED the unit, its not optional. so its something you need to research and get into. Because there's no better option. Zerg counters are all soft or medium counters to T or P, due to low range, and/or low health, and inferior damage buffs. There's only 3 zerg units that get bonus damage to anything, did you know that? baneling, ultralisk, corruptor. Im ignoring infestor because thats not an energyless direct attack. look at terran. marauder, hellion, tank, thor, viking. the ones that don't get big DPS instead. like thor ground or marine or banshee. look at protoss. Stalker, immortal, void ray, phoenix, archon (retarded huge damage vs bio!! bad for zerg, good for terran mech), and the ones tht dont get big DPS instead. colossus with its 15 (21) x2 damage. so we have 3 bonuses for clear counter for zerg. 5 for terran. 5 for protoss. and then terran and protoss also get big DPS units if those units dont have a bonus damage vs something. Terran, fast + stim = very fast, banshee ridiculous DPS, limited to ground only. Protoss gets colossus, which is limited to ground only, but has better DPS than banshee, and then is also AoE? What does zerg get? a mass of low range units who's attack modifiers go up by +1 with upgrades. Even ultralisk sucks if its not hitting armor. +1 attack vs light/bio/psi units on top of 15 per upgrade? thats worse than colossus and it attacks slower (yes it does, colossus attacks twice per its timing, and ultra only attacks once, so ultra is a slower attacker).
I agree that SC2's dynamic of oneupmanship places the infestor in the power hierarchy that it is for a good reason, but atleast for PvZ, it becomes a center-piece of a very difficult to counter army-and I think it actually decreases excitement unless you like seeing base races. We'll see how the new changes relieves this "end of the line' sequence of one-upman ship in the next patch.
|
On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that.
|
On September 12 2011 11:43 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot. Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep? Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair. explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas? Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool.
I did not say queen did alot of damage, I said they were tanky. They have 175 hp as Psionic type. Aka tanks/thors/immortal/stalkers/marauders/hellions still do the minimum damage to queens.
In most games, your creeps should still extend to half the map. With how fast you plant them late game and how slow creep fades, you're exaggerating how little creep zerg have mid/late game.
queen does have amazing AA built in. you cannot kite queen as void rays. Roach does not have more hp than queens, and roach are prone to bonus damage units such as thors/tanks/etc.
queen's mobility is a problem, thats why you either use overlords, nydus, or creep spread for assistance. 5 creep tumors will instantly cover the place with the creeps you need.
I'm not suggesting you drop your queen in the front line, or use it in the front line at all as most of you are suggesting. It should be in the back assisting, taking out the medivacs with its long range. Transfuse will be able to keep up your T3 units for a very long time, while costing almost nothing to make. Not larva, not gas. Zerg don't really have problem with minerals late game.
Queen has amazing potential with transfuse, its just one of the units that has yet to be fully explored. Note I am not saying you should mass queens and win, but they should be additional casters in your unit that helps keeping up infestors/ultra/BL alive. Transfuse is probably the most underrated ability in game, just like snipe before recent events.
|
On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that.
there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack.
when you go mech terran, you play defensive unless you do extraordinary damage with initial hellion push (pray he doesn't have roach), and hope your opponent is too noob to not max out before you reach 140 supply
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors
|
Patch 1.4 seems like more of the same from our good friends Blizzard. As someone who has never played BW I have limited knowledge of the game, but from what I hear, it was a game of seemingly overpowered units duking it out with other overpowered units. So many units were extremely strong, but the game was balanced (and a lot of fun).
So why does Blizzard now have such a different mindset? Instead of making units better, they just nerf every good unit into the past. For example, instead of making infestors weaker, they could have buffed HT's and given Protoss a great way to counter the seemingly overpowered nature of the infestor. There are so many great ideas on how to make the game better, but Blizzard just doesn't seem to listen. I know it's only the PTR and there will likely be some changes before the patch goes public, but I can't get over the backwards nature of Blizzards latest antics.
|
On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors
Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled.
|
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. (new)
Well as a Zerg player I knew this nerf was coming, but fuck, I did not expect the nerf bat this much. It is now forcing us into a more linear style of play, I don't know how this made it past initial balance stages...
Off to play Protoss and win with A move....
|
On September 12 2011 12:00 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled.
terran can not support a siege/thor/marine off 2 bases. Unless you're talking about mostly marine/tank with 1 thor, then its not mech build is it?
The most terran can support at 2 bases is 1.5 factories pumping siege tanks. You either get siege or thors, you can't get both
I am still waiting on zerg telling me why queen is bad as assist caster units. Its cheap, tanky, no larva requirement, good AA / long range, and have one of the strongest ability rival with snipe in game, without the need to suffer production (larva) or any gas to it. Sure it has its own weakness such as mobility, but its not something that can't be overcome. Zerg don't initiates fight that are not on their creep anyway, and late game can have overlord drop or overlord generate creep/creep tumor support.
|
I find it very sad that Zerg pointed out many times that FF and Storm were bullshit, in many cases ignoring their own options (look at the meta game at the time, and most spectators had opinions on what zerg could do, and have done independant of patch changes, baneling drops in particular)
And the fact that a 'toss without FF's is a death toss without a significant supply/resource advantage. (the examples I was given a lot at the time was adelscotts expand/upgrade gateway style. Really fun -check. Strong - check, took some koreans by surprise. But not efficient, needing to be a base ahead as the "tanky techy" protoss :D. Certainly not an argument against the necessity of force fields)
Fungal operates like BOTH spells combined. It controls space, deals very good damage and works well with a *lot* of units comps.
Just like the FF complaints before massive broke them "you cant micro out of fungal"
I personally like the style, and think it adds flavour to games, and like the fact that a caster, requiring micro, can turn the tide of a battle.
The annoying thing is being told that "protoss need to get creative"
I switched to zerg for giggles, struggled against all of the bullshit protoss and terran stuff, but even still I have the same opinion I've had for a long while.
Protoss have used EVERY unit at their disposal, in a myriad of compositions, for a VERY long time.
The race is DESIGNED to synergise, so it's not that protoss players are particularly creative, it's that the game leads the player towards it.
But a lot of the units are very easily countered and become useless (or rather, severely limited)
The tech switches between HT and collo are wonderful, and in long macro games make TvP not awful to watch. But they are two VERY heavy investments from protoss in order to try and provoke over commitment from a terran, who likely already has all the tech available to counter both, even with very little scouting.
Am I saying that Protoss should be buffed unkillable.
Nope, I believe that the tweaks to be made are *very* minor within the current game.
HT *very* minor buff (movement speed/acceleration, imo). They are useful (otherwise we wouldn't see them), turn into archons (very expensive, but awesome) and obv, warpgate is still warpgate.
To balance a minor buff to the caster, I'd add a build time delay to archons (as stated in a previous post in this thread) and stop them moving while morphing.
Combat morphing is one of the biggest reasons I see people hate on the templar ("once my infestor has no energy it's useless, you can morph into a great unit!" Yup. If the toss has two. A zero energy infestor is better than a dead one, no? Morphing an archon still sacrifices the 2 templar, and yes, more can be warped in but that argument wears thin. Unit retention, especially for casters, is important, so sacrificing them is not nothing.)
As for zerg. This fungal nerf wont make that much difference, will it?
NP makes no sense.
A buff to hydras really is needed. Does need some care though, as the difference between OP and useless with the hydralisk seems like it would be *very* minor (think about the roach and archon range changes) Hydras already do ridiculous damage, and in very specific circumstances are scary as hell.
I'd hate to see terran nerfed in terms of viable strategies.
It's a fucking horror to defend against the billion opening they have, but the game would be a great deal less interesting.
Maybe the BFH nerf is a tad too extreme, and the real power of 1-1-1 is not being addressed, but only time will tell (late game specifically, BFH will still be able to kill shit very dead, very quick, that's just aoe units for you)
For a large shift in gameplay I would much rather see evolution by inches than a sweeping change, UNTIL HoTS. Then all bets are off :D
|
Let's all calm down a bit. The NP change is clearly dumb, I imagine they will either change some stuff or remove that bit. Remember fungal "Doesn't hit air units" growth?
-Cross
|
On September 12 2011 11:43 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot. Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep? Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair. explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas? Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool.
Don't just shut down an idea when it has been seen to work in PvZ. Compare their late game usage to ghosts. Ghosts are mixed in and amassed in order to provide huge utility packed into 2 supply, for those late game maxed army confrontations. People have just started using ghosts in late game v Z, and now are finding them very strong. Similarly, hardly anyone uses late game queens, but I have seen them be very impressive in late game ZvP, so why not in ZvT? It doesn't matter that they are slow (off creep) since you have a bunch so you can spread creep quickly, and you are only following broodlords.
Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage.
2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage
1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health
Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens!
|
On September 12 2011 12:04 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:43 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot. Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep? Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair. explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas? Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool. Don't just shut down an idea when it has been seen to work in PvZ. Compare their late game usage to ghosts. Ghosts are mixed in and amassed in order to provide huge utility packed into 2 supply, for those late game maxed army confrontations. People have just started using ghosts in late game v Z, and now are finding them very strong. Similarly, hardly anyone uses late game queens, but I have seen them be very impressive in late game ZvP, so why not in ZvT? It doesn't matter that they are slow (off creep) since you have a bunch so you can spread creep quickly, and you are only following broodlords. Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage. 2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage 1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens!
I'd rather not be completely dependent on creep instead of it being a very nice bonus as is.
|
I can deal with the infestor, NP or not. When are Ghosts getting the nerf bat? Seriously, what was Blizzard thinking when they made a caster that could cloak, spells that are all range 10(or 12 with the AOE) that doesn't take bonus damage from anything. Why does EMP do damage instantly? Why does it make all other spell casters useless? Why does snipe counter teir 3 zerg units and have equal range to broodlords?
Also, the building that allows you to build it cost 150/50?!?! Less than the twilight counsel, which doesn't let you build any new units and only allows you to buy upgrades.
Edit: Oh yeah, why does EMP reveal cloaked units? Storm doesn't and protoss have to pay for storm?
Note: If you can't tell, I lost to some ghost builds today.
|
On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors
4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement.
In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200).
Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors.
|
On September 12 2011 11:16 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa. But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size. Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit. Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size. So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal. I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell.
Actually, because of issues with: square mathematical units, round radii, and whatever shape units the game has, you're going to waste more space with larger units, and fill the space more efficiently with small ones.
But that's really irrelevant, I merely posted to show that pure math only tells some of the story. I'm certainly not going to call fungal a weak spell, but it's silly to suggest its damage output is 89% of what storm's.
edit:
On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors.
Checking that scenario, it actually takes 8 roaches to kill one Thor without SCV help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
