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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor?
Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not.
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On September 12 2011 07:16 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:32 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 05:29 freetgy wrote:On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta.
Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then.
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it. guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago. took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself... Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that. vortex and NP has same range. So it is actually very possible to catch a MS opff guard. Especially since you want to hit your vortex in center of the army which means your mothership has to move forward, but its movement speed is very slow so you really can't react to infestor movement.
Wtf are you talking about bro, NP=range 9, Vortex=range 6. A least I can understand when people spew horseshit if it's their opinion cause they are entitled to one, but of you are gonna state fact then at least make a 10 second liquidpedia detour...
I mean the real numbers actually benefit your argument more lol so it woulda been in your best interest to get them right anyway.
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On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not.
Infestors counter tanks? Really? NP is severely outranged by them, and Fungal isn't exactly useful, and combined with Infestors' low HP, high target priority, and the efficient targeting of Tanks (as with Marines) Infestors have always been difficult to use against them. I mean yeah, it's good to have Infestors against a Marine Tank army, I'll give you that, but it sure as hell isn't because of the Tanks. And as I've said before, it's insanity to seriously claim they're an efficient counter to things like Banshees and capital ships when you have Mutas and Corruptors respectively.
Have I seriously missed something here? I've literally never heard anybody calling NP overpowered until this thread. It's like it's provoked some mass delusion than NP is this gamebreakingly powerful spell that counters everything that Fungal and ITs don't. If that's the case, shouldn't Zergs be dominating everything? I've seen maybe 2 or 3 pro games in the past few months where NP actually even decided the outcome.
You're also doing the easy thing which is thinking purely in terms of unit compositions and counters. It's not like Zerg can magically summon a bunch of Infestors with energy for fungal. Whatever happened to timings? It's not like 50s + 80s (Pit + Glands build time) is nothing, and 6 odd Infestors (what I would consider the beginnings of "alot") costs 900 gas. That's 9 Mutas that won't be killing SCVs.
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png)
This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units.
Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa.
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The fact of the matter is that infestors are better than templar, and ghosts are better than templar, so why not just buff templar instead of nerfing infestors and leaving ghosts at the top?
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On September 12 2011 09:48 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 07:16 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 05:32 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 05:29 freetgy wrote:On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon).
It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army....
Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it. guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago. took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself... Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that. vortex and NP has same range. So it is actually very possible to catch a MS opff guard. Especially since you want to hit your vortex in center of the army which means your mothership has to move forward, but its movement speed is very slow so you really can't react to infestor movement. Wtf are you talking about bro, NP=range 9, Vortex=range 6. A least I can understand when people spew horseshit if it's their opinion cause they are entitled to one, but of you are gonna state fact then at least make a 10 second liquidpedia detour...
Actually hes right about neural and vortex having the same range. The vortex liquipedia page says 6 but the mothership page says 9 and a quick look at the two units in a unit tester shows that they both have 9 range.
Anyway I doubt units like mothership and and battlecruiser were the main reasons why neural was nerfed. If they wanted to do that they could of had it be like in beta where you couldn't target air units with neural.
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On September 12 2011 09:48 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 07:16 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 05:32 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 05:29 freetgy wrote:On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon).
It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army....
Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it. guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago. took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself... Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that. vortex and NP has same range. So it is actually very possible to catch a MS opff guard. Especially since you want to hit your vortex in center of the army which means your mothership has to move forward, but its movement speed is very slow so you really can't react to infestor movement. Wtf are you talking about bro, NP=range 9, Vortex=range 6. A least I can understand when people spew horseshit if it's their opinion cause they are entitled to one, but of you are gonna state fact then at least make a 10 second liquidpedia detour... I mean the real numbers actually benefit your argument more lol so it woulda been in your best interest to get them right anyway.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mothership
Stated as Vortex Range - 9
If you go into the Mothership's abilities, and click Vortex - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Vortex. It says it is range 6.
If you look at http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mothership. Vortex range is at 9.
Well contradicting evidence, one of these numbers are off.
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On September 12 2011 10:09 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 09:48 Ryder. wrote:On September 12 2011 07:16 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 05:32 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 05:29 freetgy wrote:On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol.
1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha.
2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there.
3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either.
Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it. guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago. took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself... Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that. vortex and NP has same range. So it is actually very possible to catch a MS opff guard. Especially since you want to hit your vortex in center of the army which means your mothership has to move forward, but its movement speed is very slow so you really can't react to infestor movement. Wtf are you talking about bro, NP=range 9, Vortex=range 6. A least I can understand when people spew horseshit if it's their opinion cause they are entitled to one, but of you are gonna state fact then at least make a 10 second liquidpedia detour... I mean the real numbers actually benefit your argument more lol so it woulda been in your best interest to get them right anyway. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MothershipStated as Vortex Range - 9 If you go into the Mothership's abilities, and click Vortex - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Vortex. It says it is range 6. If you look at http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mothership. Vortex range is at 9. Well contradicting evidence, one of these numbers are off.
fixed. range is 9
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Neural parasite is fine, they need to nerf fungal back to how it was before, the damage is spread over 8 seconds not 4. OR nerf the damage more than they are right now. It won't even affect zvp since it takes the same number of fungals to kill every single unit.
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On September 12 2011 09:32 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 09:28 immortlone wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades) Heres some more math: High Templar + feedback = zero infestor dps. They don't have an attack and can't morph into a new unit. Let's be real. There's a reason we don't have an energy drain spell and infestors can only cast spells with no other utility. It would be like me making mutas when you go mech without putting up turrets. If you aren't going to take the necessary precautions to deal with what I'm making, you need to accept the consequences. just because templars are out does not make infestors all of the sudden worthless. At best they are a soft counter with infestors being faster AND fungal being a longer range via the AOE....
You understand infestors don't have EMP, right ?
Because using the same argument is kinda silly. You don't want to use your energy to only fungal on the edge of the area of effect. If you only fungal an HT, it's a pretty big win for protoss.
Don't just use the same argument you use in PvT without even thinking.
That being said, HT is not auto-win against infestors because it remains very micro intensive.
You have to control your HT, your sentries, your blink stalkers, make sure the chargelots don't run to their death in a bad engagement (mine tend to do that...).
Zerg also needs micro, and with forcefield & fungal, every mistake can be strongly punished.
But the bottomline is, its way more interesting than a retarded death ball.
I don't think players are even close to perfect micro in ZvP, it's not like PvT where we have seen countless time the ghost vs HT fights.
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infestor nerf is good, but not sure where this leaves ghost in relation.
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Seems to be so much of the infestor hate is from P trying to bring Z down to their admittedly low level, but it's clearly ignoring the implications of the changes in ZvT.
T needs to be nerfed, P needs to be buffed, but kicking Z will just result in T becoming even more dominant and smashing everyone.
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On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not.
this
its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts
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ghost counters every unit too(except tvt) so?. Terrans are to stuck on marine tank tho to actually relize it. And when a terran uses alot of ghosts they rape the opponent. And there is a time when i wouldnt make them. When they get ghosts or ht/mass lot. Just because you now have to react to what a zerg is doing everyone is freaking out. And dont say well zerg is suppose to be the reactive race so its not allowed. When lurkers were made terran had to react and build the right units or they lost.
The problem is before no1 was saying oh np is imba(after they had a duration put on) change it. Before people thought fungal and infested terran were imba. Blizzard could have nerfed that without changing a key element to zergs gameplay.
Massing infestors is bad but limiting the zergs few options we have into mass any other unit is fine? Its even worse when they said corruptors are a bad/boring unit but yet theyre like fuck you, you have to build it anyways. Since all toss is going to do is go back to 3 base turtle collo stalker death ball again.
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On September 12 2011 10:53 Falcor wrote:
ghost counters every unit too(except tvt) so?. Terrans are to stuck on marine tank tho to actually relize it. And when a terran uses alot of ghosts they rape the opponent. And there is a time when i wouldnt make them. When they get ghosts or ht/mass lot. Just because you now have to react to what a zerg is doing everyone is freaking out. And dont say well zerg is suppose to be the reactive race so its not allowed. When lurkers were made terran had to react and build the right units or they lost.
The problem is before no1 was saying oh np is imba(after they had a duration put on) change it. Before people thought fungal and infested terran were imba. Blizzard could have nerfed that without changing a key element to zergs gameplay.
Massing infestors is bad but limiting the zergs few options we have into mass any other unit is fine? Its even worse when they said corruptors are a bad/boring unit but yet theyre like fuck you, you have to build it anyways. Since all toss is going to do is go back to 3 base turtle collo stalker death ball again.
LOL? Ghosts dont counter every unit. They counter units with energy and high hp valuable units. I would love to see a ghost countering low tier units for their cost.
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On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts
I have to agree here. I don't understand why you would want to play by just making the same unit over and over vs everything. Protoss was like that for a while with the colossus and it was dreadful.
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Hm I honestly feel the NP change is necessary in order to bring the infestor into non-god-unit status, it needs an obvious hole and being good against high value units and lots of low-value units just made it too good, that's just part of the infestors shifting role from something with a good single target spell and a low-damage aoe to something with an average single target spell and a high damage aoe.
The drop change on the other hand seems absolutely brutal and unnecessary as I feel like it was one of the best synergies in the game, and with the removal of NP makes going up against collosus/stalker even more difficult.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErkvTOqloM
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On September 12 2011 10:53 Falcor wrote:
ghost counters every unit too(except tvt) so?. Terrans are to stuck on marine tank tho to actually relize it. And when a terran uses alot of ghosts they rape the opponent. And there is a time when i wouldnt make them. When they get ghosts or ht/mass lot. Just because you now have to react to what a zerg is doing everyone is freaking out. And dont say well zerg is suppose to be the reactive race so its not allowed. When lurkers were made terran had to react and build the right units or they lost.
The problem is before no1 was saying oh np is imba(after they had a duration put on) change it. Before people thought fungal and infested terran were imba. Blizzard could have nerfed that without changing a key element to zergs gameplay.
Massing infestors is bad but limiting the zergs few options we have into mass any other unit is fine? Its even worse when they said corruptors are a bad/boring unit but yet theyre like fuck you, you have to build it anyways. Since all toss is going to do is go back to 3 base turtle collo stalker death ball again.
Alright let's look at TvZ. How does Ghost counter every unit? They're able to EMP and remove energy. Not Kill an infestor with that ability. They remove energy. They lack an AOE damage spell that kills unlike Infestors. You can't kill with EMP in TvZ. And they can't deal with Mass Low-Tech units. They have no AOE damage ability in that match up.
Let's say Brood/Ultras are out, Ghosts can Snipe right? People seem to fail to recognize how micro-intensive chain-sniping is. I posted this before, and I guess I have to again.
If Ghosts can sit there and Chain-Snipe away at units slowly like that without the opposing team's units counter attacking, Terran already won the game before Ghosts were an issue.
I think Zergs don't understand how it is to Chain-Snipe, all APM is essentially committed to the Ghosts. You can't drop a few snipes and go back to splitting/kiting your Marine-ball and microingTank shots. It requires 3 Snipes to kill Infestors (most players can't do it in 2 due to their regeneration), 6 for BL, 12 for Ultras. Ghosts may be effective against these units but they need to have a very Solid Buffer between them.
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On September 12 2011 10:59 Dingobloo wrote:Hm I honestly feel the NP change is necessary in order to bring the infestor into non-god-unit status, it needs an obvious hole and being good against high value units and lots of low-value units just made it too good, that's just part of the infestors shifting role from something with a good single target spell and a low-damage aoe to something with an average single target spell and a high damage aoe. The drop change on the other hand seems absolutely brutal and unnecessary as I feel like it was one of the best synergies in the game, and with the removal of NP makes going up against collosus/stalker even more difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErkvTOqloM
It's not average single target spell, its an awful single target spell. Its literally almost useless in most situations, and the only situations its useful in, its not worth it to get it. The infestor is one of few zerg units that rewards you for good micro, without it you are back to relying on your opponents poor micro to do good in engagements. Also, how are people saying fungal is bs because it restricts movement, when protoss has forcefields.
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On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts
Actually, Marines and Infestors are basically the same thing.
Marines are pretty much good all of the time no matter what you're up against. "oh but Marines have soft counters such as infestors and high templar!" . . . . oh you mean like how Infestors are soft countered by Ghosts and High Templar?
yeah
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EPT
