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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them.
FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition....
I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it.
guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then.
cause that is what happened as i saw him streaming some days ago this week.
He took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself...needless to say he lost that match.
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On September 12 2011 05:29 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:55 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway. Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it. guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago. took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself...
Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that.
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On September 12 2011 05:28 zhurai wrote:
I personally don't like that blizzard does major changes...
let the metagame freaking settle`
Except when terran gets nerfed of course;)
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On September 12 2011 05:21 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why are people so caught up on the NP change? Especially in the context of PvZ, where NP pretty much was never used and didn't do anything and is practically a worthless spell in that matchup.
It's not like NP was ever crucial to any strategy. Every matchup, if something gets NP'd, it's pretty much always because the players are playing pretty fking badly. You answered your own question, why nerf something that's already useless? (it isn't useless, by the way, but I'm supposing it is for the purpose of responding to your post) The confusing thing to me is the fact that I've never seen anybody claim NP was overpowered before this thread. Even putting balance aside, the change is completely backwards just from a design perspective. It's like if they'd decided to nerf tanks by making it so they can't target units they'd one-shot, rather than simply reducing the damage. Or if instead of increasing the HP of Nexi and other P and Z structures to make Marauder drops less powerful, they'd made it so Marauders couldn't target structures. If something is too good at what it does, make it slightly weaker, don't just hack off a whole bunch of options. Lots of people have brought up extremely sensible alternatives (reduced duration/increased energy cost for massive units etc.)
To be fair, there is a reason they are "just hacking off a whole bunch of options." The infestor had too many options. You could blindly mass them (see destiny) and you would have an answer to almost anything. While I don't think this is the best change either (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
The ideas put forth about nerfing the duration or increasing the energy for massive units do not eliminate the infestor's ability to deal with anything. Your changes actually promote using even more infestors since you need more infestor energy to accomplish the same things as before.
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On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote: (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
This. I don't understand why fungal affects air units in the first place. In ZvZ, Roach/Infestor would be less dominant if Mutas were more viable, and that would make ZvZs more interesting. In ZvT, if you use fungal to kill anything but Vikings in the air then something's already gone seriously wrong, and Vikings are proving to be inferior to Ghosts to counter Broodlords (Vikings only role in TvZ), which in turn counter Infestors pretty well. In ZvP, I guess Infestors could fungal Void Rays/Phoenix, but Phoenix play is normally either MC style before Infestors can get out or gimmicky double Stargate play which again comes before Infestors. I suppose fungal stops the VR/Colossus ball but that style is really old now and bling drops and harass play destroys that anyway.
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On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:21 GentleDrill wrote:On September 12 2011 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why are people so caught up on the NP change? Especially in the context of PvZ, where NP pretty much was never used and didn't do anything and is practically a worthless spell in that matchup.
It's not like NP was ever crucial to any strategy. Every matchup, if something gets NP'd, it's pretty much always because the players are playing pretty fking badly. You answered your own question, why nerf something that's already useless? (it isn't useless, by the way, but I'm supposing it is for the purpose of responding to your post) The confusing thing to me is the fact that I've never seen anybody claim NP was overpowered before this thread. Even putting balance aside, the change is completely backwards just from a design perspective. It's like if they'd decided to nerf tanks by making it so they can't target units they'd one-shot, rather than simply reducing the damage. Or if instead of increasing the HP of Nexi and other P and Z structures to make Marauder drops less powerful, they'd made it so Marauders couldn't target structures. If something is too good at what it does, make it slightly weaker, don't just hack off a whole bunch of options. Lots of people have brought up extremely sensible alternatives (reduced duration/increased energy cost for massive units etc.) To be fair, there is a reason they are "just hacking off a whole bunch of options." The infestor had too many options. You could blindly mass them (see destiny) and you would have an answer to almost anything. While I don't think this is the best change either (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity. The ideas put forth about nerfing the duration or increasing the energy for massive units do not eliminate the infestor's ability to deal with anything. Your changes actually promote using even more infestors since you need more infestor energy to accomplish the same things as before.
That last point is a really backwards way of putting it. It's like saying that if they halved the damage of Roaches, people would use them twice as much.
Infestors having too many options is getting away from the Neural nerf itself and becoming more about the Infestor and its abilities in general (which has already happened in this thread). My point is that this change to the Neural is a nonsensical design decision. Its other spells don't factor into this.
Also, to SeaSwift above, Mutas are already becoming standard in ZvZ. It's happened since the Nestea/Losira finals. Idra is one of many Zergs who have talked about it.
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On September 12 2011 05:39 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote: (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
This. I don't understand why fungal affects air units in the first place. In ZvZ, Roach/Infestor would be less dominant if Mutas were more viable, and that would make ZvZs more interesting. In ZvT, if you use fungal to kill anything but Vikings in the air then something's already gone seriously wrong, and Vikings are proving to be inferior to Ghosts to counter Broodlords (Vikings only role in TvZ), which in turn counter Infestors pretty well. In ZvP, I guess Infestors could fungal Void Rays/Phoenix, but Phoenix play is normally either MC style before Infestors can get out or gimmicky double Stargate play which again comes before Infestors. I suppose fungal stops the VR/Colossus ball but that style is really old now and bling drops and harass play destroys that anyway.
"Fungal shouldn't hit air because nobody goes air that's vulnerable to fungal [because fungal hits air]"
Ugh, think through your argument man.
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On September 12 2011 05:28 zhurai wrote:
I personally don't like that blizzard does major changes...
let the metagame freaking settle`
I'd like to see alot more hardcore changes, but not in the direction of simple nerfs. More like design/concept overhauls like we saw in beta.
When beta ended on the note it did, I just sorta sat there with my jaw hanging like "wtf? the hydra is STAYING this way? and marines are staying like that? and wtf is with force fields making it into retail?!"
So many things just made me kinda sit there going wtf. and to this day, I see those things that needed changing still unchanged, and it still makes me go wtf, as I was it unbalance the game horribly, and simply make it not fun for alotta people. Enough so that alot of people have quit the game.
I really can't wait for HoTS honestly. It needs to redeem SC2's fun/balance factor.
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On September 12 2011 05:47 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:39 SeaSwift wrote:On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote: (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
This. I don't understand why fungal affects air units in the first place. In ZvZ, Roach/Infestor would be less dominant if Mutas were more viable, and that would make ZvZs more interesting. In ZvT, if you use fungal to kill anything but Vikings in the air then something's already gone seriously wrong, and Vikings are proving to be inferior to Ghosts to counter Broodlords (Vikings only role in TvZ), which in turn counter Infestors pretty well. In ZvP, I guess Infestors could fungal Void Rays/Phoenix, but Phoenix play is normally either MC style before Infestors can get out or gimmicky double Stargate play which again comes before Infestors. I suppose fungal stops the VR/Colossus ball but that style is really old now and bling drops and harass play destroys that anyway. "Fungal shouldn't hit air because nobody goes air that's vulnerable to fungal [because fungal hits air]" Ugh, think through your argument man.
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but can you clearly point out where I implied that? I think you missed the point, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
People wouldn't go mass air even if Infestors couldn't fungal air. That isn't the reason why mass air isn't viable, except perhaps in ZvZ. It just seems superfluous to the design of sc2, and makes the Infestor even more ubiquitous when it doesn't need to be. Also, Warp Prism play is rising in PvZ, and the ability of fungal to prevent Warp Prism micro seems unnecessary and silly.
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Canada13389 Posts
On September 12 2011 04:48 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 12 2011 04:29 Eps wrote:On September 12 2011 04:21 Ziggitz wrote:
I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers. That's a very general outlook at why Protoss players dislike Infestors. But the main problem of what you're saying is, you cannot blindly go HT tech builds every game. What if the Zerg is heavy in Roaches? You've branched out and invested in a tech path that may not yield any benefits. The problem with Infestors is it's utility. It has so many uses and very little drawbacks if any at all in most match ups. So with the NP nerf colossus and perhaps even zealot/archon will be a good counter to infestor, as well as high templar. My question is, is it good for protoss to have multiple counters to infestor? If they cannot go high templar every game, should they be able to go colossus every game? Is there something wrong if protoss has to scout infestor or spire tech in the same way that zerg should have to scout robo or templar tech? Especially when the timing of infestation pit makes it quite easy to potentially scout with hallucination of observer. Is there some reason protoss cannot respond in time, even when it is scouting? If someone is going to say yes to this, do we have high level examples? When it comes to citing high level play, I don't think there is enough to draw from when it comes to scouting and responding correctly to templar tech, which is the biggest reason I am skeptical of this change. When toss scouts infestor, I believe the current metagame demands he go mass blink stalker or colli. If you scout infestor and go temp, you can't get a third until storm or colli after temps, because mass roach + fungal rolls you.
Well you can go temps if you get storm fast and storm drop them but even then its not so easy if they go roach with some infestor support in the earlyish mid game.
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On September 12 2011 05:56 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:48 -_- wrote:On September 12 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 12 2011 04:29 Eps wrote:On September 12 2011 04:21 Ziggitz wrote:
I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers. That's a very general outlook at why Protoss players dislike Infestors. But the main problem of what you're saying is, you cannot blindly go HT tech builds every game. What if the Zerg is heavy in Roaches? You've branched out and invested in a tech path that may not yield any benefits. The problem with Infestors is it's utility. It has so many uses and very little drawbacks if any at all in most match ups. So with the NP nerf colossus and perhaps even zealot/archon will be a good counter to infestor, as well as high templar. My question is, is it good for protoss to have multiple counters to infestor? If they cannot go high templar every game, should they be able to go colossus every game? Is there something wrong if protoss has to scout infestor or spire tech in the same way that zerg should have to scout robo or templar tech? Especially when the timing of infestation pit makes it quite easy to potentially scout with hallucination of observer. Is there some reason protoss cannot respond in time, even when it is scouting? If someone is going to say yes to this, do we have high level examples? When it comes to citing high level play, I don't think there is enough to draw from when it comes to scouting and responding correctly to templar tech, which is the biggest reason I am skeptical of this change. When toss scouts infestor, I believe the current metagame demands he go mass blink stalker or colli. If you scout infestor and go temp, you can't get a third until storm or colli after temps, because mass roach + fungal rolls you. Well you can go temps if you get storm fast and storm drop them but even then its not so easy if they go roach with some infestor support in the earlyish mid game.
What your talking about is such a huge investment that if it doesn't do damage you will probably lose the game. Also with so much in tech I think a good zerg would just counter attack and run over your less then adequate army....
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On September 12 2011 05:51 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:47 hugman wrote:On September 12 2011 05:39 SeaSwift wrote:On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote: (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
This. I don't understand why fungal affects air units in the first place. In ZvZ, Roach/Infestor would be less dominant if Mutas were more viable, and that would make ZvZs more interesting. In ZvT, if you use fungal to kill anything but Vikings in the air then something's already gone seriously wrong, and Vikings are proving to be inferior to Ghosts to counter Broodlords (Vikings only role in TvZ), which in turn counter Infestors pretty well. In ZvP, I guess Infestors could fungal Void Rays/Phoenix, but Phoenix play is normally either MC style before Infestors can get out or gimmicky double Stargate play which again comes before Infestors. I suppose fungal stops the VR/Colossus ball but that style is really old now and bling drops and harass play destroys that anyway. "Fungal shouldn't hit air because nobody goes air that's vulnerable to fungal [because fungal hits air]" Ugh, think through your argument man. Maybe I'm just being stupid, but can you clearly point out where I implied that? I think you missed the point, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. People wouldn't go mass air even if Infestors couldn't fungal air. That isn't the reason why mass air isn't viable, except perhaps in ZvZ. It just seems superfluous to the design of sc2, and makes the Infestor even more ubiquitous when it doesn't need to be. Also, Warp Prism play is rising in PvZ, and the ability of fungal to prevent Warp Prism micro seems unnecessary and silly.
They'd mass void rays, or void ray/colossus. And Z simply doesn't have an answer to that except infestors with FG. We saw that during the period of Protoss deathball dominance leading up to that infestor buff.
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Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion.
The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise.
what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true)
simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms)
While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s.
(before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem)
The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either:
a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals)
b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability
c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG
Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
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On September 11 2011 22:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 22:00 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up. If you're letting toss get a bunch of collosus without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. There just proved using your logic that NP was never needed. If you let your opponent get a bunch of collosus you deserved to lose so why should you have a counter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't make silly statements like that, if the game is over for one side as long as the other get x number of 1 unit. It's not balanced.
counterpoint: If you let Zerg get a bunch of infestors without combating it properly, then you deserve to lose.
See how silly the argument gets, especially when colossus didnt get nerfed, but infestor did? Because you Ps whined.
Using equal amounts of resources for each army should yield equal results, given decent micro and tactics.
if someone can mass unit X that steamrolls a normal army comp, the enemy army should be able to mass unit Y to deal with it, and the person who uses unit X shouldn't be able to just clean up the remaining enemy army with their leftovers while person with unit Y is now helpless.
Thats just bad game design and you know it. stop pretending.
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On September 12 2011 06:15 imareaver3 wrote:
They'd mass void rays, or void ray/colossus. And Z simply doesn't have an answer to that except infestors with FG. We saw that during the period of Protoss deathball dominance leading up to that infestor buff.
This is the problem that so many of the protoss players in this thread are blind to. Prior to the infestor buff, PvZ was incredibly difficult and frustrating for zerg players. We had to play this delicate game, producing just enough corrupters to kill all of the colossi, but not so many that we wouldn't have enough ground army to survive. It was almost impossible to get right, and usually you'd end up losing to the large gateway army that was left after you'd eliminated all of the colossi.
I'm all for an infestor nerf, as long as it's paired with buffs that address the fundamental zerg weaknesses. Blizzard seems unwilling to do so, preferring to wait for HOTS, and force us to pay to have a complete game. All of the hate in this thread should really be directed toward Blizzard for releasing a series of underwhelming, indecisive patches, and delaying substantive fixes until a later expansion in an attempt to make us pay again for something that they should fix now.
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On September 12 2011 05:39 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 05:34 Fig wrote: (I would much rather see fungal not affect air units) Blizzard is trying to promote unit diversity.
This. I don't understand why fungal affects air units in the first place. In ZvZ, Roach/Infestor would be less dominant if Mutas were more viable, and that would make ZvZs more interesting. In ZvT, if you use fungal to kill anything but Vikings in the air then something's already gone seriously wrong, and Vikings are proving to be inferior to Ghosts to counter Broodlords (Vikings only role in TvZ), which in turn counter Infestors pretty well. In ZvP, I guess Infestors could fungal Void Rays/Phoenix, but Phoenix play is normally either MC style before Infestors can get out or gimmicky double Stargate play which again comes before Infestors. I suppose fungal stops the VR/Colossus ball but that style is really old now and bling drops and harass play destroys that anyway.
Cause then zergs would be forced to make a spire every single game since hydra's are simply shit.
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Honestly. . I dont quite disagree with doing something to neural parasite. Thiers something intrinsically strange about 1 neural shutting down a mothership. Not that those get used, but in principle its wierd. However . . in my opinion colossus/neural parasite controversies seemed pretty balanced? Now that NP doesn't affect massive units, I really think as some of you do that NP needs to fundamentally change. Honestly they should just make it like mind control from SC1. At least you'd feel a bit better taking units. No sense having a NP connected to a zealot or stalker, marauder, void ray (unless thiers a bunch). . or even a siege tank. It almost never seems worth the risk now to use neural parasite. I could be wrong, but i think i thought about it for a bit. But between infested terrans, NP, and fungal growth. . Yeah. . I can see the need to tweak infestors
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On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army....
NP is needed by Zerg for one reason:
Roach nerf: 2 supply instead of 1.
now zerg has half the possible army to play with.
It needs to shut down your most damaging army parts. Or does the deathball not prove that Zerg doesn't have enough units on the field, due to roaches getting nerfed
I just want you to think about that. Zerg is supposed to swarm. Zerg had its army size cut in HALF by roaches getting a 200% supply nerf.
think about it.
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On September 12 2011 03:45 Virid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:20 Shiori wrote:+ Show Spoiler +this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround. Zerg has no real hard counter to colossus or HT's. HT's hard counter mutalisks, zerglings, hydralisks, and Infestors. I don't think you understand how few options zerg ever really has. We have only about 9 attacking units, and you're shutting down 4 of them. Infestors you can argue can't just barely fungal outside of their range, but in terms of comparing the two units one-against-one, the HT has a clear advantage in being able to kill or nearly kill infestors instantly for modest amounts of energy. Colossi similarly shut down Zerglings and Hydralisks. + Show Spoiler +
i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous.
Hydralisks do not beat stalkers with blink, at all. Hydralisks lose to mass air after a certain point. Hydralisks have no role in any matchup except the oddest of situations that don't properly reflect its intended roles anyway. Hydralisks are a bad unit, and a bad zerg unit is devastating becaese we have so few units in the first place. A one-base zerg against a one-base protoss is a loss after the 4-gate timing. Zerg gets not only resources from the hatcheries, but also production. We NEED multiple bases. It is not greedy to do so, it is a burden placed upon us by the design of the game. The best response to a 2rax is 15 hatch, 'nuff said. + Show Spoiler +
so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor.
anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is.
Safe bets? A protoss can sit on two-base until all the minerals are mined out of it and the zerg can never, ever attack in a non-all-in manner. Two-base also significantly weakens harass and scouting due to the low travel distances across your bases.That is the definition of a safe bet. You complain about hard counters, but at the same time you complain about lacking a hard counter despite offering one at the beginning of this quote. You're ignorant, upset, and irrational. Don't waste people's time without using some of your own to figure out what exactly your issue with zerg is.
I have to agree with the points made in this post.
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So.. I was just thinking about how they're nerfing zerg, making pvz a LITTLE better (very little) for toss, but hurting zergs zvt a bunch in the process, right. and I asked myself, why don't they just change toss to be.. better? Since pvz isn't even their biggest sore spot! pvt is. and I was tryin to think of what could really be done to fix it.
Well, I came up with something.. Maybe not anything great.. but it's something. What if they tweaked psy storm a bit? So that maybe it did... 60 dmg instead of 80, with the same 40 burst, BUT! Psy storm got a buff that gave it a 5-6 second silence? Then gave HT's a slight speed boost?
You could effectively go after ghost packs before your army moves in, trying to keep storms going down best you could.
Not only that, but you'd be able to prevent ENDLESS stim pack usage from the infantry, and so your gateway units would stand a WAY better chance in a straight up fight then.
It could possibly even work for chasing them down, forcing the terran into actually DIFFICULT positions, as opposed to just stimming and hauling ass like they currently do.
This silence could also be used to stop infestors from just chain fungaling your entire army till it melts. It could also be used to maybe prevent some NP's too?
So instead of nerfing the ability directly, hurting zergs ZvT massively, and just making terran stronger overall.. Why not just buff HT's?
and if the silence is too strong on basic units too, then it could be made to only stun psionic units maybe? That way it targets spell casters and protoss in general. Also adding some dynamics to pvp?
Thoughts? Anyone?
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EPT
