Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote: [quote]
Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part....
LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta.
Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then.
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon).
It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army....
Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol.
1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha.
2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there.
3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either.
Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have.
Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships....
Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen.
Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly..
ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong.
Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk.
NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down.
The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway.
Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it.
guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened to him some days ago.
took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself...
Well he got caught off guard, it happens. In any major engagement where you have a bit of foresight you can simply keep MS behind the main army and it will never be touched by NP, simple as that.
vortex and NP has same range. So it is actually very possible to catch a MS opff guard. Especially since you want to hit your vortex in center of the army which means your mothership has to move forward, but its movement speed is very slow so you really can't react to infestor movement.
So.. I was just thinking about how they're nerfing zerg, making pvz a LITTLE better (very little) for toss, but hurting zergs zvt a bunch in the process, right. and I asked myself, why don't they just change toss to be.. better? Since pvz isn't even their biggest sore spot! pvt is. and I was tryin to think of what could really be done to fix it.
That's the whole retardness in this change. Nerfing NP bring back the old PvZ Colossi/blink stalker every game + Leave the zerg with no counter in TvZ, which is already horribly favored toward terran On the other side, buffing HT speed would solve the infestor problem and help in PvT, which is also favored toward terran
It's just not logical, it must be a PTR experiment "for shit and giggles"
On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote: A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them.
Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it.
Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi".
Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords?
As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle.
Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback).
If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified.
It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up.
If you're letting toss get a bunch of collosus without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified.
There just proved using your logic that NP was never needed. If you let your opponent get a bunch of collosus you deserved to lose so why should you have a counter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Don't make silly statements like that, if the game is over for one side as long as the other get x number of 1 unit. It's not balanced.
counterpoint: If you let Zerg get a bunch of infestors without combating it properly, then you deserve to lose.
See how silly the argument gets, especially when colossus didnt get nerfed, but infestor did? Because you Ps whined.
Using equal amounts of resources for each army should yield equal results, given decent micro and tactics.
if someone can mass unit X that steamrolls a normal army comp, the enemy army should be able to mass unit Y to deal with it, and the person who uses unit X shouldn't be able to just clean up the remaining enemy army with their leftovers while person with unit Y is now helpless.
Thats just bad game design and you know it. stop pretending.
This is true, but from the current metagame we see now. Colossus is no longer a "mass and win" unit anymore. However, infestor is. There is no reason to justify a unit that counters light, harass, counters armor, and counters massive. Toss rarely even use it. It is usually heavy blink play+mass gateway+temp. Colossus is just too easily countered.
Using equal amount of resource should not result in same result because for example terran mule ability allows terran to get a lot more minerals than toss. Zerg's ability to take bases faster generally means zerg have both more gas and minerals. This forces the other two race to be more cost efficient or hit good timing attacks.
NP is needed by Zerg for one reason:
Roach nerf: 2 supply instead of 1.
now zerg has half the possible army to play with.
It needs to shut down your most damaging army parts. Or does the deathball not prove that Zerg doesn't have enough units on the field, due to roaches getting nerfed
I just want you to think about that. Zerg is supposed to swarm. Zerg had its army size cut in HALF by roaches getting a 200% supply nerf.
think about it.
roaches at 1 supply even by Idra's standard was massively OP. Roaches are already very cost efficient so they had to nerf it by making it supply inefficent. Zerg is a mass race. Just because a certain unit is high in food cost doesn't mean it is no longer a mass race. Under your idea, there is no reason for broodlords and ultras because you can't mass them as zerg. Even in broodwar, you can't mass lurkers, yet they are still good.
On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Woah that is much scarier than I thought. I guess one thing that could even this out would be to bring Storm back to a radius of 2 so it is on par in that respect with Fungal and EMP. It was nerfed a long time ago, while HTs still had the amulet, so reverting it would make sense. This actually happened to the void ray as well. They nerfed the cost from 200/150 to 250/150, then the range from 7 to 6, then the damage, and then took out the speed upgrade. We can only wonder if toss would be in the same terrible position they are now if Blizzard had taken back early nerfs when they found something that actually worked.
i would be fine for roaches to be 1 supply, if they costed more, or simply a bit weaker since right now they are incredibly cost efficent but really not supply efficent, maybe if you reduced their health to 100 or something
Also someone else raised a good point, NP completely renders carriers and mothership obsolete. The carrier is its own problem, but im hoping this is a step in the right direction for carriers being viable. . . at least in this matchup. Also as to the doesnt have a hard counter to colossus . . Z and T both have a unit basically tailored to deal with colossus (viking/corruptor). Not only that corruptors can move into very viable lategame units (broodlord). Yes you will have one less option to deal with colossus. . but to say they have no real way of dealing with colosus is embellishing, a bit
but let me emphasize that im not convinced that "simply" removing its ability to target massive was the right thing to do. NP should just be completely rethought from a design standpoint.
guess WhiteRa is not a half decent Protoss then. cause that is what happened as i saw him streaming some days ago this week.
He took his MS to defend his third on Typhoon Peaks, wanted to use Vortex for defense, got neuraled and vortexed himself...needless to say he lost that match.
Exactly. People aren't awful (as suggested by a previous poster) for getting their Mothership neuraled. It happens when you try to use vortex. Both nerual and vortex have a 9 range, so it's a gamble to use the spell when infestors are on the field. I'm not claiming that makes it unbalanced.
Nerfing NP won't bring you that balance tho sadly. It won't help bring pvz back to 50% in any way.
You need alot more then just that to do it.
Also, just a side note as to yesterdays argument.. I just watched idra do bane rain, and even with fungals to help, the toss just spread out and ducked all his bombings. Thus idra lost.
So.. uhh.. yeah. Not a viable strat anymore, imo. lololol
Lol, I know the discussion is silly, but I do agree a good solution would be a roach change. Switch roach supply to 1, seriously nerf health + damage, and possibly do something similar to hydras as well. I think the game would be more fun, with zerg being swarmier. Lol, but we're talking nonsense and I know it.
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are.
On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote: You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are.
Because we've been over how to fix the other zerg units in a bazillion different ways over the course of this past YEAR, and all through beta. Blizz doesn't want to change them. They wanted to change infestors.
So all we can do at this point, is go by their desires, and try to work around the changes they want to be in the game.
Apologies if this has been posted but are there any opinions on making NP a fear/disorient type effect as opposed to switching the target unit's allegiance? i.e. the target unit would move randomly (controlled by neither player) for the duration of the neural instead of attacking. This still messes with the army positioning of the P or T but not in such an overwhelmingly predictable way. Also retains the purpose of the spell, neutralizing a dangerous unit for a short time, without turning the target unit's dps back on the other player.
One downside I can see is that this change would remove the ability for zerg to control ghosts and templar and use feedback/emp against other ghosts and HT - difficult to do and very entertaining to see in high level games. At the same time I'm not sure if Bliz had this in mind as the primary function of NP.. neural to counter feedback to counter emp to counter neural etc.. And if this is the thought process, NP should similarly be a non-upgrade ability.
On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote: You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are.
When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds.
Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you?
So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor?
On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote: You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are.
When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds.
Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you?
So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor?
On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
I've beene saying this about fungal vs storm now for a long time, especially when Zerg players bring up the "well storm does more dps!" argument which is ridiculous.
Thank you for providing some numbers and such, I would have done so myself but I don't have the maths brain for that haha
I agree with your suggestions, personally I would think that option b) would be best. Too many stalker armies just die to something like ling/inf, it's quite frustrating.
So.. I was just thinking about how they're nerfing zerg, making pvz a LITTLE better (very little) for toss, but hurting zergs zvt a bunch in the process, right. and I asked myself, why don't they just change toss to be.. better? Since pvz isn't even their biggest sore spot! pvt is. and I was tryin to think of what could really be done to fix it.
That's the whole retardness in this change. Nerfing NP bring back the old PvZ Colossi/blink stalker every game + Leave the zerg with no counter in TvZ, which is already horribly favored toward terran On the other side, buffing HT speed would solve the infestor problem and help in PvT, which is also favored toward terran
It's just not logical, it must be a PTR experiment "for shit and giggles"
I agree. Everyone in this thread needs to put their money where their mouth is, all go onto the PTR and play likes is a tournament. Blizzard WILL make decisions based on what they see in the PTR. otherwise, why else open it up to the general public?
So just go pound out 20 games there against a GLOBAL population on PTR ladder, meaning not only will you benefit from getting to play games against EU and SEA people, adn thus seeing what they're doing, you will also be giving blizz more info to helpe the game out.
NP nerf sucks? Go to PTR and prove it with numbers.
On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Heres some more math:
High Templar + feedback = zero infestor dps since they don't have an attack and can't morph into a new unit.
Let's be real. There's a reason we don't have an energy drain spell and infestors can only cast spells with no other utility.
It would be like me making mutas when you go mech without putting up turrets. If you aren't going to take the necessary precautions to deal with what I'm making, you need to accept the consequences.
On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Heres some more math:
High Templar + feedback = zero infestor dps. They don't have an attack and can't morph into a new unit.
Let's be real. There's a reason we don't have an energy drain spell and infestors can only cast spells with no other utility. It would be like me making mutas when you go mech without putting up turrets. If you aren't going to take the necessary precautions to deal with what I'm making, you need to accept the consequences.
just because templars are out does not make infestors all of the sudden worthless. At best they are a soft counter with infestors being faster AND fungal being a longer range via the AOE....
On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote: Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm)
Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else)
Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage.
It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors)
Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
Heres some more math:
High Templar + feedback = zero infestor dps. They don't have an attack and can't morph into a new unit.
Let's be real. There's a reason we don't have an energy drain spell and infestors can only cast spells with no other utility. It would be like me making mutas when you go mech without putting up turrets. If you aren't going to take the necessary precautions to deal with what I'm making, you need to accept the consequences.
just because templars are out does not make infestors all of the sudden worthless. At best they are a soft counter with infestors being faster AND fungal being a longer range via the AOE....
Don't use the word "counter." stalkers "counter" hellions (damnit autocorrect!), but a sufficient number of hellions can roast stalkers. Just one example.
Anyway, if I can fungal your high templar or NP them, you had an equal opportunity to feedback them. If you aren't paying attention to your army or don't spread your units, that's your own fault and a hole in your play that can and will be exploited if given the chance.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png)
since right now they are incredibly cost efficent but really not supply efficent, maybe if you reduced their health to 100 or something 
