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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
The NP nerf is just horrible and is not the problem with mass infestors. I'm a zerg player and I hate the design of fungal growth. I would like it to be more of a tactical spell by effecting a certain area (larger radius than current fungal) for X seconds and in that area slow enemy units speed by 50-70%. I'm not sure if it should make damage or not.
But for blizzard to change fungal growth they need to buff/rework hydras/corruptors/ultralisks.
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On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement Show nested quote +
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong.
Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk.
NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down.
The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway.
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On September 12 2011 04:29 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:21 Ziggitz wrote:
I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers. That's a very general outlook at why Protoss players dislike Infestors. But the main problem of what you're saying is, you cannot blindly go HT tech builds every game. What if the Zerg is heavy in Roaches? You've branched out and invested in a tech path that may not yield any benefits. The problem with Infestors is it's utility. It has so many uses and very little drawbacks if any at all in most match ups.
So with the NP nerf colossus and perhaps even zealot/archon will be a good counter to infestor, as well as high templar.
My question is, is it good for protoss to have multiple counters to infestor?
If they cannot go high templar every game, should they be able to go colossus every game?
Is there something wrong if protoss has to scout infestor or spire tech in the same way that zerg should have to scout robo or templar tech?
Especially when the timing of infestation pit makes it quite easy to potentially scout with hallucination of observer. Is there some reason protoss cannot respond in time, even when it is scouting? If someone is going to say yes to this, do we have high level examples?
When it comes to citing high level play, I don't think there is enough to draw from when it comes to scouting and responding correctly to templar tech, which is the biggest reason I am skeptical of this change.
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On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement Show nested quote +
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong.
Sorry I didn't intend to sidestep you question.
I feel the metagame has not evolved enough in the other matches to see Protoss air late game in the other MUs. That and vikings lol....
Toss upgrades for ground covers everything on the ground and the race in balanced that way. Its very difficult and expensive to tech switch as toss.
I think if carriers built faster and maybe a small movement speed increase it would not be uncommon to see them late game.
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On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless.
Just how many times have you seen at Mothership being successfully NPed ?
I've seen roughly half a dozen try at pro lvl, and it never worked.
How are you supposed to NP a mothership that is behind range 9 colossi ? Or HT, or even carriers, or basically anything.
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The most important change for me is the rax bulding time and hellions. I'm sick of bio balls with line of BF hellions in front that melt zealots so fast it's not even funny. And how often have you lost to some stupid proxy marauder bullshit because your sentry was 2 seconds too late and your units can't fight terran tier 1 otherwise? I think it evens things out a little bit in the earliest stage of the game where terran has advantage over protoss (not to mention 2rax vs zerg). I just hope those 2 changes make it through.
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On September 12 2011 04:30 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 03:56 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them.
FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition....
Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ... Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag. spoiler tag? the bracket was available to anybody wtf Just because it is available to anybody looking for the information, it doesn't mean you can say it anywhere. That's why spoiler tag exists... It has not even been casted yet...
If you're talking about IPL it was casted yesterday.
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On September 12 2011 04:42 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Sorry I didn't intend to sidestep you question. I feel the metagame has not evolved enough in the other matches to see Protoss air late game in the other MUs. That and vikings lol.... Toss upgrades for ground covers everything on the ground and the race in balanced that way. Its very difficult and expensive to tech switch as toss. I think if carriers built faster and maybe a small movement speed increase it would not be uncommon to see them late game.
It doesn't work, Vikings / Thors are too good of a counter.
Watch Hasu vs Goody on Shakuras / Metalopolis from the Ies(? i think at least) qualifier.
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On September 12 2011 04:45 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:30 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 04:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 03:56 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ... Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag. spoiler tag? the bracket was available to anybody wtf Just because it is available to anybody looking for the information, it doesn't mean you can say it anywhere. That's why spoiler tag exists... It has not even been casted yet... If you're talking about IPL it was casted yesterday.
Yes talking about IPL qualifier 3, the one coming after the IPL qualifier 2 they just finished casting yesterday.
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On September 12 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:29 Eps wrote:On September 12 2011 04:21 Ziggitz wrote:
I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers. That's a very general outlook at why Protoss players dislike Infestors. But the main problem of what you're saying is, you cannot blindly go HT tech builds every game. What if the Zerg is heavy in Roaches? You've branched out and invested in a tech path that may not yield any benefits. The problem with Infestors is it's utility. It has so many uses and very little drawbacks if any at all in most match ups. So with the NP nerf colossus and perhaps even zealot/archon will be a good counter to infestor, as well as high templar. My question is, is it good for protoss to have multiple counters to infestor? If they cannot go high templar every game, should they be able to go colossus every game? Is there something wrong if protoss has to scout infestor or spire tech in the same way that zerg should have to scout robo or templar tech? Especially when the timing of infestation pit makes it quite easy to potentially scout with hallucination of observer. Is there some reason protoss cannot respond in time, even when it is scouting? If someone is going to say yes to this, do we have high level examples? When it comes to citing high level play, I don't think there is enough to draw from when it comes to scouting and responding correctly to templar tech, which is the biggest reason I am skeptical of this change.
When toss scouts infestor, I believe the current metagame demands he go mass blink stalker or colli. If you scout infestor and go temp, you can't get a third until storm or colli after temps, because mass roach + fungal rolls you.
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On September 12 2011 04:34 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:15 Eps wrote:I'll have to quote myself since I don't want to repeat it again. On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability. The main issue with Infestors is not the NP, it's Fungal's rooting ability. You mean the ability that was nerfed by 50% when the infestor was buffed? That ability? You couldn't possibly mean that ability, because that would just be retarded.
Right, I like how you don't mention the fact that the DPS doubled. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can.
I like how people can act as if the increased usage of Infestors had nothing to do with the 1.3 patch and it's all about Zerg players "developing" new strategies, and having nothing to do with a Buff. It's no coincidence that we see Infestors popping up everywhere since the patch.
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On September 12 2011 04:47 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:45 hasuterrans wrote:On September 12 2011 04:30 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 04:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 03:56 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:
[quote]
Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more..
Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is....
The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game.......
The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ... Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag. spoiler tag? the bracket was available to anybody wtf Just because it is available to anybody looking for the information, it doesn't mean you can say it anywhere. That's why spoiler tag exists... It has not even been casted yet... If you're talking about IPL it was casted yesterday. Yes talking about IPL qualifier 3, the one coming after the IPL qualifier 2 they just finished casting yesterday.
Not sure what you are trying to say, I watched the Stephano games yesterday.
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On September 12 2011 04:50 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:34 pwadoc wrote:On September 12 2011 04:15 Eps wrote:I'll have to quote myself since I don't want to repeat it again. On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability. The main issue with Infestors is not the NP, it's Fungal's rooting ability. You mean the ability that was nerfed by 50% when the infestor was buffed? That ability? You couldn't possibly mean that ability, because that would just be retarded. Right, I like how you don't mention the fact that the DPS doubled. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can. I like how people can act as if the increased usage of Infestors had nothing to do with the 1.3 patch and it's all about Zerg players "developing" new strategies, and having nothing to do with a Buff. It's no coincidence that we see Infestors popping up everywhere since the patch.
It's really a combination of the two tbh. In the mid game the old fungal with the longer lockdown less dps was better for most things, but as you have more fungals, so you can chain FG more, the increased dps really becomes insanely strong, so lategame infestor is just ridiculous(assuming good retention from mid game).
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On September 12 2011 04:36 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:23 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:
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Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships.... Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen. Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly.. ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong. Mothership does have some uses but NP makes it worthless. But other ones are right, carriers and BCs are not obselote due to infestors. There are just better units for less cost and less risk. NP is also very bad versus deathballs. When colossus count reaches in the 7-8 count. Infestors are sniped much easier. If you NP 3 colossus, just redirect the other 3-4 colossus and target them down. The only timing NP is good is mid game robo-based pushes when toss is around 140-160 food with 3-4 colossus or 120 to 130 food with 2-3 immortals. At that time zerg is usually maxed with like 8-9 infestors and lots of lings/some roaches or around 30-40 supply above toss. There is litterally no way for the toss to win at that time. 8-9 infestors NP all the colossus then its colossus+lings surround vs stalkers/sentry army. I don't like NP for the pure reason that it removes mid game robo timing forcing toss to go only mass gateway.
Anybody who lets their Mothership get Neural Parasited simply can't micro. There is no way any half decent Protoss will ever let his Mothership be caught by NP. NP hardly makes a Mothership worthless, it's such a tired and bad argument I don't know why people keep saying it.
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On September 12 2011 04:54 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:50 Eps wrote:On September 12 2011 04:34 pwadoc wrote:On September 12 2011 04:15 Eps wrote:I'll have to quote myself since I don't want to repeat it again. On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability. The main issue with Infestors is not the NP, it's Fungal's rooting ability. You mean the ability that was nerfed by 50% when the infestor was buffed? That ability? You couldn't possibly mean that ability, because that would just be retarded. Right, I like how you don't mention the fact that the DPS doubled. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can. I like how people can act as if the increased usage of Infestors had nothing to do with the 1.3 patch and it's all about Zerg players "developing" new strategies, and having nothing to do with a Buff. It's no coincidence that we see Infestors popping up everywhere since the patch. It's really a combination of the two tbh. In the mid game the old fungal with the longer lockdown less dps was better for most things, but as you have more fungals, so you can chain FG more, the increased dps really becomes insanely strong, so lategame infestor is just ridiculous(assuming good retention from mid game).
That's what confused me about the patch change.
I always thought the purpose of Fungal was to lock down units in place while Zerg, a melee-oriented race can attack. Nowadays with the high DPS, Fungal itself can kill.
In the past, a Fungal drops on a bunch of Marine-Medivacs. They're not dead yet, they can be healed and can still fight. Nowadays Z drop a Fungal, wait a couple seconds, 2nd fungal - essentially all the Marines caught are dead.
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Why are people so caught up on the NP change? Especially in the context of PvZ, where NP pretty much was never used and didn't do anything and is practically a worthless spell in that matchup.
It's not like NP was ever crucial to any strategy. Every matchup, if something gets NP'd, it's pretty much always because the players are playing pretty fking badly.
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On September 12 2011 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why are people so caught up on the NP change? Especially in the context of PvZ, where NP pretty much was never used and didn't do anything and is practically a worthless spell in that matchup.
It's not like NP was ever crucial to any strategy. Every matchup, if something gets NP'd, it's pretty much always because the players are playing pretty fking badly.
Eh.... No. Just no. I see that all the time.
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I don't think you can complain about spoilers for a qualifier tournament
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On September 12 2011 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why are people so caught up on the NP change? Especially in the context of PvZ, where NP pretty much was never used and didn't do anything and is practically a worthless spell in that matchup.
It's not like NP was ever crucial to any strategy. Every matchup, if something gets NP'd, it's pretty much always because the players are playing pretty fking badly.
You answered your own question, why nerf something that's already useless? (it isn't useless, by the way, but I'm supposing it is for the purpose of responding to your post)
The confusing thing to me is the fact that I've never seen anybody claim NP was overpowered before this thread.
Even putting balance aside, the change is completely backwards just from a design perspective. It's like if they'd decided to nerf tanks by making it so they can't target units they'd one-shot, rather than simply reducing the damage. Or if instead of increasing the HP of Nexi and other P and Z structures to make Marauder drops less powerful, they'd made it so Marauders couldn't target structures.
If something is too good at what it does, make it slightly weaker, don't just hack off a whole bunch of options. Lots of people have brought up extremely sensible alternatives (reduced duration/increased energy cost for massive units etc.)
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I personally don't like that blizzard does major changes...
let the metagame freaking settle`
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EPT
