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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ...
Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag.
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On September 12 2011 03:20 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:10 Staboteur wrote:On September 12 2011 01:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work  ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario. So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed! Wat. Yes, of COURSE the player with better control should win the battle. I was pointing out that although it's real easy to say LOOK LOL 10.5 RANGE > 9 RANGE CANT BLINK WHILE FUNGALD AND NP COLOSSUS SHOOT MY SHIT NOT HIS for the Zerg to actually get all of that to happen requires pretty damn solid control. The player with better control DOES win those battles, but ties go to the zerg and because the zerg has more mistakes to make those mistakes are potentially more impacting. Unless the Zerg does everything -perfectly- there's micro that the Protoss can do to counter the Zerg's micro, and because dead infestors can't NP and NPing infestors can't fungal, -any- mistake that is punished on the zerg's part has or can have a snowballing effect. So no, I didn't unknowingly agree that infestors need to be nerfed, I just pointed out that on paper infestors > all but that's only with flawless control on the zerg's part and the Protoss doing nothing but keeping all his crap in a tight ball and crying imba after. Infestors force your opponent to be careful with his engagements, exactly like siege tanks, colossus, and forcefields do. I don't see why this means it's imba, because I sure as shit can't attack into well-spread siege tanks or any Protoss deathball involving colossus/sentry without getting rofl'd all over. the issue is that infestors in general don't require much positioning or control to use. the fact of the matter is that fungal should not obliterate everything and immobilize everything. i understand that you need some sort of way of dealing with stalkers, but you shouldn't be able to just shut down everything with one ability. furthermore, why must everything be a hard counter? if you can't deal with blink stalkers, you don't need some unit to make the stalker irrelevant. just get something that is generally good against blink stalkers but doesn't totally make it irrelevant. this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround. i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous. so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor. anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is.
Im gonna specifically respond to the marked parts (but don't want to cut the post into pieces because I think it belonds together):
1) It's not a fundamental protossproblem that everything has hardcounters in this game, it is a fundamental feature of the game. Name a unit. I can name a hardcounter. (and just to point it out, there are games in which hardcounters mean that no amount of units can destroy them and a lot of them are fun & balanced --> C&C games)
The difference of course between the races is, that Terran has a superuniversal starting unit that doesn't cut into your tech (no gascosts), while Protoss and Zerg get them later and they have their drawbacks, but in exchange are easier to produce (as Zerg produces everything from hatches, and Protoss most things from Gateways)
2) You knew that people would respond to the hydra thing, and here are my 2c: First you say it is terrible how everything has harcounters in the game, and afterwards you say that the hydra is well designed because it has a specific role but gets hardcountered by colossi. That's not consistent argumentation...
Also hydralisks don't counter stalkers. They cost pretty much the same and in pure stalker vs hydra fights, hydras come out on top just barely, while having more passive costs (higher tech), being less mobile and especially not having a blink upgrade, that makes them ~50% more efficient if microed. In fact, blink stalkers demolish same cost/supply of hydras brutally. They need a lot of tanking units to really become efficient, so many, that usually it simply doesn't make sense to go hydras most of the time, because you have to invest into tanking units first, and afterwards you usually need something that counters what your opponent goes for, rather then add something that slightly strengthens your army. (yes, this is how the game is designed; counter or die)
3) How do you think we feel when T2 void rays or Immortals counter T3 Ultralisks... It's just a bad argument. If you want a game in which T2 is simply better than T1, I think you should go and play Supreme Commander. (I think it is really good, if you get into it and it is balanced, but in a different way than starcraft)
4) The Infestor is not situational... Like Blink Stalkers vs Zerg or Marines vs Zerg. In fact, in my eyes I would love to have MORE of units like those. Units that are simply good, and I don't lose because my coin flipped roach while his coin flipped voidray.
Also I would argue that the Infestor (unlike stalkers or marines) is a high tier gasintense unit and therefore not massable as long as you stay in touch with your opponent.
5) Any zerg opening that doesn't include roaches loses against a properly played 6gate. (if you lose to ling/bling LEARN YOUR FORCEFIELDS)
Also 5gate blink is brutal against most zerg openings. I'd rather say, Protoss has the most techpathes available in all their MUs.
vs Zerg: mass gateway, colossi, blink, dts, air
vs Terran: mass gateway, colossi, charge, upgrades, dts, archons
while Zerg can go: roach, infestor/ling, ling/bling, hydra/ling
and terran is limited to bio anyways vs toss (if you start arguing about mech, Im gonna ignore you)
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United States15275 Posts
On September 12 2011 03:30 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just won IPL Qualifier #3 by beating Kiwikaki, Puzzle, mma, revival and someone else I cant recall pure ling infestor in nearly ALL games..... He beat marinekingprime FFS!!!
+ Show Spoiler +MarineKing played pretty terribly in that series. Multiple instances of being caught off-guard, not walling off his main, not spreading his units, etc. etc.
You forgot to mention the next series, which showcased Rain dismantling Stephano by abusing the weak timings inherent in a ling/infestor composition.
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I get the feeling the rax build time is meant to stop to 2 marauder/1 marine push from ending a protoss FE. The patch changes don't really suggest a way to deal with 1/1/1, just feel a little bit safer from the various bio pushes that might come instead.
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On September 12 2011 03:45 Virid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:20 Shiori wrote:+ Show Spoiler +this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround. Zerg has no real hard counter to colossus or HT's. HT's hard counter mutalisks, zerglings, hydralisks, and Infestors. I don't think you understand how few options zerg ever really has. We have only about 9 attacking units, and you're shutting down 4 of them. Infestors you can argue can't just barely fungal outside of their range, but in terms of comparing the two units one-against-one, the HT has a clear advantage in being able to kill or nearly kill infestors instantly for modest amounts of energy.
high templars do not shut down any of the aforementioned units. by that i mean, the units in question still have a variety of uses even with HTs on the field. infestors do not suddenly become dead weight when high templars are warped in (hell, they even outrange feedback) and nor do zerglings. zerglings that you presently have could very easily be used for harassment just like mutas. furthermore, it's very difficult for HT spam to break even with any realistic zerg composition, whereas infestor spam is always good. seriously, even if he's going chargelot archon (anti-infestor/ling) as long as you switch to roaches or have a third in time you're fine. the issu with high templars is that they are the definition of a situational counter. compare the infestor: it can do what the HT does, but it's effective against more units. the trouble is that protoss needs the HT to try and mitigate the damage of the undoubtedly more numerous infestors, but it also needs to storm in order to get the protoss to break even, or form archons for the same purpose.
colossus and hts are easily counter by even the most basic of compositions. if you seriously think zerg can't answer them then i can only conclude you don't watch or play this game.[/quote]
Colossi similarly shut down Zerglings and Hydralisks.
not true. first, zerglings still have a purpose with colossi on the field. you can still attempt to surround in combination with baneling drops (colossi lose to zergling surrounds, btw) and harass mineral lines with them. hydralisks, fine, are shut down by a vastly more expensive and techier unit. again, i see no reason to believe that low-tier units shouldn't get decently well-countered by high-tier units that are designed to counter them, but the problem is that infestors/marauders/etc aren't high tier units. they're tier 2 at best and they don't get shut down by anything cost-for-cost. i'm not arguing that we make them useless, but i am arguing that either protoss gets hard counters or other races lose theirs, because as it stands we're the only race whose units get made absolutely irrelevant by the existence of common counterparts/
+ Show Spoiler +
i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous.
Hydralisks do not beat stalkers with blink, at all. Hydralisks lose to mass air after a certain point. Hydralisks have no role in any matchup except the oddest of situations that don't properly reflect its intended roles anyway. Hydralisks are a bad unit, and a bad zerg unit is devastating becaese we have so few units in the first place.
A one-base zerg against a one-base protoss is a loss after the 4-gate timing. Zerg gets not only resources from the hatcheries, but also production. We NEED multiple bases. It is not greedy to do so, it is a burden placed upon us by the design of the game. The best response to a 2rax is 15 hatch, 'nuff said.
hydralisks do not lose to mass air "after a certain point" unless you're attempting to compare 200/200 hydras with 200/200 carriers or something, in which case i can only point you to the grave disparity in resource investment.
first of all, i think 13/14 is actually better than hatch first to begin with, but you still aren't answering my question. if i see your hatch first, it shouldn't be unpunishable as a protoss player. hatch first is not the only opening zerg players can go, and it corresponds directly to nexus/cc first. if i tech straight to void rays, i should be able to either force spores, force additional queens, or force you to sacrifice a hatch. i should not be required to get 2 voids and a phoenix in order to achieve this.
+ Show Spoiler +
so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor.
anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is.
Safe bets? A protoss can sit on two-base until all the minerals are mined out of it and the zerg can never, ever attack in a non-all-in manner. Two-base also significantly weakens harass and scouting due to the low travel distances across your bases.That is the definition of a safe bet.
have you considered just expanding all over the map next time a protoss decides to chill on one base? like, if you honestly think protoss can reliably win games sitting on two bases until they're mined out, you're crazy. this would only ever work if zerg decides to not expand or scout at all and doesn't bother to tech. infestors alone demolish any two-base timing attack protoss can do (and it'll be made even easier once blink is nerfed for no real reason--no, no, clearly that's a needed nerf whereas the infestor is just fine).
You complain about hard counters, but at the same time you complain about lacking a hard counter despite offering one at the beginning of this quote. You're ignorant, upset, and irrational. Don't waste people's time without using some of your own to figure out what exactly your issue with zerg is.
and you're bad at this game. high templars do not in any meaningful sense hard counter infestors. period. ghosts hard counter infestors. templar do not. i defy you to find the protoss version of the infestor or marauder or marine in terms of versatility. it simply doesn't exist.
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On September 12 2011 03:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:20 Shiori wrote:On September 12 2011 03:10 Staboteur wrote:On September 12 2011 01:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario. So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed! Wat. Yes, of COURSE the player with better control should win the battle. I was pointing out that although it's real easy to say LOOK LOL 10.5 RANGE > 9 RANGE CANT BLINK WHILE FUNGALD AND NP COLOSSUS SHOOT MY SHIT NOT HIS for the Zerg to actually get all of that to happen requires pretty damn solid control. The player with better control DOES win those battles, but ties go to the zerg and because the zerg has more mistakes to make those mistakes are potentially more impacting. Unless the Zerg does everything -perfectly- there's micro that the Protoss can do to counter the Zerg's micro, and because dead infestors can't NP and NPing infestors can't fungal, -any- mistake that is punished on the zerg's part has or can have a snowballing effect. So no, I didn't unknowingly agree that infestors need to be nerfed, I just pointed out that on paper infestors > all but that's only with flawless control on the zerg's part and the Protoss doing nothing but keeping all his crap in a tight ball and crying imba after. Infestors force your opponent to be careful with his engagements, exactly like siege tanks, colossus, and forcefields do. I don't see why this means it's imba, because I sure as shit can't attack into well-spread siege tanks or any Protoss deathball involving colossus/sentry without getting rofl'd all over. the issue is that infestors in general don't require much positioning or control to use. the fact of the matter is that fungal should not obliterate everything and immobilize everything. i understand that you need some sort of way of dealing with stalkers, but you shouldn't be able to just shut down everything with one ability. furthermore, why must everything be a hard counter? if you can't deal with blink stalkers, you don't need some unit to make the stalker irrelevant. just get something that is generally good against blink stalkers but doesn't totally make it irrelevant. this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround. i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous. so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor. anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is. Im gonna specifically respond to the marked parts (but don't want to cut the post into pieces because I think it belonds together): 1) It's not a fundamental protossproblem that everything has hardcounters in this game, it is a fundamental feature of the game. Name a unit. I can name a hardcounter. (and just to point it out, there are games in which hardcounters mean that no amount of units can destroy them and a lot of them are fun & balanced --> C&C games) The difference of course between the races is, that Terran has a superuniversal starting unit that doesn't cut into your tech (no gascosts), while Protoss and Zerg get them later and they have their drawbacks, but in exchange are easier to produce (as Zerg produces everything from hatches, and Protoss most things from Gateways) 2) You knew that people would respond to the hydra thing, and here are my 2c: First you say it is terrible how everything has harcounters in the game, and afterwards you say that the hydra is well designed because it has a specific role but gets hardcountered by colossi. That's not consistent argumentation... Also hydralisks don't counter stalkers. They cost pretty much the same and in pure stalker vs hydra fights, hydras come out on top just barely, while having more passive costs (higher tech), being less mobile and especially not having a blink upgrade, that makes them ~50% more efficient if microed. In fact, blink stalkers demolish same cost/supply of hydras brutally. They need a lot of tanking units to really become efficient, so many, that usually it simply doesn't make sense to go hydras most of the time, because you have to invest into tanking units first, and afterwards you usually need something that counters what your opponent goes for, rather then add something that slightly strengthens your army. (yes, this is how the game is designed; counter or die) 3) How do you think we feel when T2 void rays or Immortals counter T3 Ultralisks... It's just a bad argument. If you want a game in which T2 is simply better than T1, I think you should go and play Supreme Commander. (I think it is really good, if you get into it and it is balanced, but in a different way than starcraft) 4) The Infestor is not situational... Like Blink Stalkers vs Zerg or Marines vs Zerg. In fact, in my eyes I would love to have MORE of units like those. Units that are simply good, and I don't lose because my coin flipped roach while his coin flipped voidray. Also I would argue that the Infestor (unlike stalkers or marines) is a high tier gasintense unit and therefore not massable as long as you stay in touch with your opponent. 5) Any zerg opening that doesn't include roaches loses against a properly played 6gate. (if you lose to ling/bling LEARN YOUR FORCEFIELDS) Also 5gate blink is brutal against most zerg openings. I'd rather say, Protoss has the most techpathes available in all their MUs. vs Zerg: mass gateway, colossi, blink, dts, air vs Terran: mass gateway, colossi, charge, upgrades, dts, archons while Zerg can go: roach, infestor/ling, ling/bling, hydra/ling and terran is limited to bio anyways vs toss (if you start arguing about mech, Im gonna ignore you)
absolutely out of touch with the current metagame.
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"Unit vision up ramps will be decreased by 1"
Does that mean if you chill at the base of a ramp, you won't be able to see the roachies blocking it, or does it mean when you're standing on one, you can't see as far into the main?
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On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either.
Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have.
Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships....
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On September 12 2011 04:03 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:57 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 03:20 Shiori wrote:On September 12 2011 03:10 Staboteur wrote:On September 12 2011 01:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario. So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed! Wat. Yes, of COURSE the player with better control should win the battle. I was pointing out that although it's real easy to say LOOK LOL 10.5 RANGE > 9 RANGE CANT BLINK WHILE FUNGALD AND NP COLOSSUS SHOOT MY SHIT NOT HIS for the Zerg to actually get all of that to happen requires pretty damn solid control. The player with better control DOES win those battles, but ties go to the zerg and because the zerg has more mistakes to make those mistakes are potentially more impacting. Unless the Zerg does everything -perfectly- there's micro that the Protoss can do to counter the Zerg's micro, and because dead infestors can't NP and NPing infestors can't fungal, -any- mistake that is punished on the zerg's part has or can have a snowballing effect. So no, I didn't unknowingly agree that infestors need to be nerfed, I just pointed out that on paper infestors > all but that's only with flawless control on the zerg's part and the Protoss doing nothing but keeping all his crap in a tight ball and crying imba after. Infestors force your opponent to be careful with his engagements, exactly like siege tanks, colossus, and forcefields do. I don't see why this means it's imba, because I sure as shit can't attack into well-spread siege tanks or any Protoss deathball involving colossus/sentry without getting rofl'd all over. the issue is that infestors in general don't require much positioning or control to use. the fact of the matter is that fungal should not obliterate everything and immobilize everything. i understand that you need some sort of way of dealing with stalkers, but you shouldn't be able to just shut down everything with one ability. furthermore, why must everything be a hard counter? if you can't deal with blink stalkers, you don't need some unit to make the stalker irrelevant. just get something that is generally good against blink stalkers but doesn't totally make it irrelevant. this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround. i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous. so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor. anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is. Im gonna specifically respond to the marked parts (but don't want to cut the post into pieces because I think it belonds together): 1) It's not a fundamental protossproblem that everything has hardcounters in this game, it is a fundamental feature of the game. Name a unit. I can name a hardcounter. (and just to point it out, there are games in which hardcounters mean that no amount of units can destroy them and a lot of them are fun & balanced --> C&C games) The difference of course between the races is, that Terran has a superuniversal starting unit that doesn't cut into your tech (no gascosts), while Protoss and Zerg get them later and they have their drawbacks, but in exchange are easier to produce (as Zerg produces everything from hatches, and Protoss most things from Gateways) 2) You knew that people would respond to the hydra thing, and here are my 2c: First you say it is terrible how everything has harcounters in the game, and afterwards you say that the hydra is well designed because it has a specific role but gets hardcountered by colossi. That's not consistent argumentation... Also hydralisks don't counter stalkers. They cost pretty much the same and in pure stalker vs hydra fights, hydras come out on top just barely, while having more passive costs (higher tech), being less mobile and especially not having a blink upgrade, that makes them ~50% more efficient if microed. In fact, blink stalkers demolish same cost/supply of hydras brutally. They need a lot of tanking units to really become efficient, so many, that usually it simply doesn't make sense to go hydras most of the time, because you have to invest into tanking units first, and afterwards you usually need something that counters what your opponent goes for, rather then add something that slightly strengthens your army. (yes, this is how the game is designed; counter or die) 3) How do you think we feel when T2 void rays or Immortals counter T3 Ultralisks... It's just a bad argument. If you want a game in which T2 is simply better than T1, I think you should go and play Supreme Commander. (I think it is really good, if you get into it and it is balanced, but in a different way than starcraft) 4) The Infestor is not situational... Like Blink Stalkers vs Zerg or Marines vs Zerg. In fact, in my eyes I would love to have MORE of units like those. Units that are simply good, and I don't lose because my coin flipped roach while his coin flipped voidray. Also I would argue that the Infestor (unlike stalkers or marines) is a high tier gasintense unit and therefore not massable as long as you stay in touch with your opponent. 5) Any zerg opening that doesn't include roaches loses against a properly played 6gate. (if you lose to ling/bling LEARN YOUR FORCEFIELDS) Also 5gate blink is brutal against most zerg openings. I'd rather say, Protoss has the most techpathes available in all their MUs. vs Zerg: mass gateway, colossi, blink, dts, air vs Terran: mass gateway, colossi, charge, upgrades, dts, archons while Zerg can go: roach, infestor/ling, ling/bling, hydra/ling and terran is limited to bio anyways vs toss (if you start arguing about mech, Im gonna ignore you) absolutely out of touch with the current metagame.
absolutly useless post, I don't know what you are even responding to from my post...
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On September 12 2011 03:56 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ... Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag.
spoiler tag? the bracket was available to anybody wtf
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Oh wow, Shiori is sooo out of touch.
hydralisks do not lose to mass air "after a certain point" unless you're attempting to compare 200/200 hydras with 200/200 carriers or something, in which case i can only point you to the grave disparity in resource investment.
lol, so wrong once again. Just earlier today I beat a Zerg player by going pure air. He went for Queen, Spores, Hydras. I just massed Phoenix and Carriers and stomped him easy. I didn't even build a single Gateway unit, it was cute.
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On September 12 2011 04:05 Asday wrote:
"Unit vision up ramps will be decreased by 1"
Does that mean if you chill at the base of a ramp, you won't be able to see the roachies blocking it, or does it mean when you're standing on one, you can't see as far into the main?
Units standing on the low ground or only part way up ramps so that they still count as on the low ground won't be able to see as far up the ramp as before. It's big for PvP because there will be one specific spot on normal ramps where you can put a forcefield that blocks units below the FF from seeing the high ground, and also blocks warp-ins or blink-ins to that little space above the FF.
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I'll have to quote myself since I don't want to repeat it again.
On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability.
The main issue with Infestors is not the NP, it's Fungal's rooting ability.
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On September 12 2011 04:13 BeeNu wrote:Oh wow, Shiori is sooo out of touch. Show nested quote +
hydralisks do not lose to mass air "after a certain point" unless you're attempting to compare 200/200 hydras with 200/200 carriers or something, in which case i can only point you to the grave disparity in resource investment.
lol, so wrong once again. Just earlier today I beat a Zerg player by going pure air. He went for Queen, Spores, Hydras. I just massed Phoenix and Carriers and stomped him easy. I didn't even build a single Gateway unit, it was cute.
I love it when people cite a single one of their OWN games as irrefutable proof of balance or to make a point.....
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I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers.
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On September 12 2011 04:10 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:45 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 03:35 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 03:30 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade? Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game. Horrible rebuttal on your part.... LOL if you think the NP is broken atm, you obviously did not play in beta. Btw, I didn't mention sentries in the post you quoted. I said FF. I can show you tons and tons of example where FF has single handedly won the game dating all the way back to beta. Can you show me a game where Mass NP was the biggest factor in the game? Hell, look through all those games that NP was used on Massive and think what would have happened if the patch had went through then. NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete. Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg? As I have already stated, its a spell that 99% of the time will end up with the unit neuraled being killed at the end of battle. There is only one other spell that comes close to doing that (250mm strike cannon). It immobilizes/stuns the target and kills it. NP end result is not only a dead unit but during its control it is doing damage back to the opponents army.... Lol if you think Mothership/Carrier/BC's aren't used solely cause of Infestors then yea... not sure if I should explain why they aren't used lol. 1. Mothership is a BM unit and has never been considered meant for competitive play after their nerfs from alpha. 2. Why aren't Carriers used in PvP or PvT? no infestors there. 3. Why aren't BC's used in TvP? No infestors there either. Carriers w/mothership are quite strong, you just typically win the game with ground armies long before then. I think they need a build time tweak like BC and Ultras have. Still doesn't change the fact the NP is zergs answer to all capital ships....
Carrier with mothership is VERY strong, but it's not used not bcause of infestors lol it's cause it's damn expensive and slow moving. The way to beat Carriers/Mothership massing is to NOT let it happen.
Btw, NP'd Carriers don't send out interceptors. Interceptors also has a massive range or 10? They kill infestors very very quickly..
ALSO, you sidestepped my questions. Do you see now how your previous statement
NP makes carriers, motherships, BC, obsolete.
Why should one ability make it so those units can never be fielded in a high level game against zerg?
..is just completely wrong.
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On September 12 2011 04:15 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 04:13 BeeNu wrote:Oh wow, Shiori is sooo out of touch.
hydralisks do not lose to mass air "after a certain point" unless you're attempting to compare 200/200 hydras with 200/200 carriers or something, in which case i can only point you to the grave disparity in resource investment.
lol, so wrong once again. Just earlier today I beat a Zerg player by going pure air. He went for Queen, Spores, Hydras. I just massed Phoenix and Carriers and stomped him easy. I didn't even build a single Gateway unit, it was cute. I love it when people cite a single one of their OWN games as irrefutable proof of balance or to make a point.....
and I love it even more when people don't cite anything and make baseless statements like "Hydras are great vs air!"
sorry, but Mass air beats Hydras incredibly easily, it's mass Corruptor that actually counters it.
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On September 12 2011 04:21 Ziggitz wrote:
I think the most of the protoss complaints about HT's not being an adequate counter to infestors are similar in nature to Terrans claiming that ghosts weren't an adequate counter to them. As per usual average protoss player does their standard 6 gate timing push gets crushed by infestors then thinks to himself "I should make HT's to counter the infestors" by which point he is already worlds behind the zerg play in economy and he either just has so many infestors or roach ling it doesn't matter or he's teched to broodlords to zone out ht's and keep his infestors safe. The protoss player then loses the game and thinks that HT's are terrible when he had already lost before he made them.
In general, infestor play didn't pop up over night, it took a while to refine and get to work even after the patch. Don't expect HT play to be an automatic counter after the fact and don't expect it to be something you don't have to work at.
Protoss need to start doing intelligent twilight council openings instead of timing attacks against ice fisheresque openings(1 or no gas into all 4 gas right before lair openings. Give yourself the option to chrono blink out in response to spire, HT's to counter infestors from the very start rather than from behind or dts to take map control. I'm not a protoss player so I couldn't come up with build orders but there should probably be a robo facilitiy in there at some point for an obs, immortals for quick defense or aggression, a warp prism or to kickstart colossus tech later on. As it is I don't see a lot of protoss builds meant to give the player options with scouting built in looking for specific triggers.
That's a very general outlook at why Protoss players dislike Infestors.
But the main problem of what you're saying is, you cannot blindly go HT tech builds every game. What if the Zerg is heavy in Roaches? You've branched out and invested in a tech path that may not yield any benefits.
The problem with Infestors is it's utility. It has so many uses and very little drawbacks if any at all in most match ups.
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On September 12 2011 04:12 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:56 Elean wrote:On September 12 2011 03:11 ReignFayth wrote:On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:
[quote]
Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP. Stephano He just ... Seriously, learn to use spoiler tag. spoiler tag? the bracket was available to anybody wtf
Just because it is available to anybody looking for the information, it doesn't mean you can say it anywhere. That's why spoiler tag exists...
It has not even been casted yet...
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On September 12 2011 04:15 Eps wrote:I'll have to quote myself since I don't want to repeat it again. Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability. The main issue with Infestors is not the NP, it's Fungal's rooting ability.
You mean the ability that was nerfed by 50% when the infestor was buffed? That ability? You couldn't possibly mean that ability, because that would just be retarded.
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EPT
