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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 01:08 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work  ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor..  Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different HT also has storm. 9 cast range and 1.5 radius.
and also costs 200 gas, has to researched and since when do we use storm in a ht vs festor battle?
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On September 12 2011 01:54 TheLeafmuncher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... I think Destiny gets bashed too much. I'd say he is mechanically far superior to many other grandmasters. ihmo Neural parasite should get removed or completely remade, but before it happens there should be pretty dramatic changes to Hydralisk and Corruptor. Possibly to overseer as well. For some reason I think these changes are aimed towards players in Diamond or below where people don't have the apm required to deal with their core units being mind controlled. I haven't seen NP being overused or abused in the pro scene at all.
Yeah, it does seem like these changes are aimed at lower leagues and I don't like it. Even if I think it is considerably easier to play toss or terran at my level, the game shouldn't be balanced around it. It makes the game far too bland
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I don't understand how people can say Zerg is winning a ton of games. In the GSL zergs are getting destroyed just like toss and the fact that they are using infestors in every mu like some people are saying and still getting stomped means that infestors are not op at the highest level and zerg has no other viable tech options. All this talk makes me thing zerg needs some serious buffs to other units.
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On September 12 2011 01:57 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:08 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different HT also has storm. 9 cast range and 1.5 radius. and also costs 200 gas, has to researched and since when do we use storm in a ht vs festor battle?
Infestor requires pathogen glands for 150/150 and neural for another 150/150.
Since when do we waste fungals on single HTs?
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People need to understand that the ghost, HT, infestor were designed to serve different purposes, thus it is idiotic to compare them to each other...
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Are these changes already on Europe?
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On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade?
Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game.
Horrible rebuttal on your part....
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On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP?
Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time...
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On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time...
If you watch Destiny's stream you would also know just because he gets to late game with a ton of Infestors doesn't mean he's always going to win either.
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On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time...
Stop using Destiny all the time ppl.
He is the ONLY one that actually does it.
Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP.
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On September 12 2011 01:29 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:16 jazzbassmatt wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Destroying the unit is in no way equivalent to taking it over into your control for a brief period of time. Infestors who NP can often easily be sniped and FF, which counters the ability. You can't target down a infestor when your colossi are NP killing your own army.
All I have to say to this is...
no.
Please bring your QQ somewhere else.
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On September 12 2011 02:49 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite if broken in its current state and doesn't belong in the game.
Horrible rebuttal on your part....
Neural parasite has been in this game, in its current form, for months. No one has complained about it up until now, and for most of that time, Zerg has been the clear underdog.
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On September 12 2011 01:54 TheLeafmuncher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... I think Destiny gets bashed too much. I'd say he is mechanically far superior to many other grandmasters. ihmo Neural parasite should get removed or completely remade, but before it happens there should be pretty dramatic changes to Hydralisk and Corruptor. Possibly to overseer as well. For some reason I think these changes are aimed towards players in Diamond or below where people don't have the apm required to deal with their core units being mind controlled. I haven't seen NP being overused or abused in the pro scene at all.
Destiny is very a smart player. But as of right now, his mechanics are awful. Ever since Starcraft 2 has been released, he's been playing a style where after the ten minute mark, scouting and multitasking are mostly irrelevant. This is because he wants to create a super army which can defeat any other maxed army.
You'll notice he frequently floats massive amounts of minerals and gas in his games. This isn't because he couldn't spend his money, but because his style dictates he shouldn't.
If Destiny wants to become a top player, he needs to practice multitasking. Even if he think Mutas aren't optimal TvZ, he should practice L, BL, M ZvT because it really tasks you.
If you ever wondered why Destiny seems inconsistent, his poor mechanics are the reason. If you leave an inferior player alone, he can kill you 1/5 games with a two base timing. But if you have superior multitasking, and constantly pressure him, you'll rarely lose.
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On September 12 2011 01:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario. So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed!
Wat.
Yes, of COURSE the player with better control should win the battle. I was pointing out that although it's real easy to say LOOK LOL 10.5 RANGE > 9 RANGE CANT BLINK WHILE FUNGALD AND NP COLOSSUS SHOOT MY SHIT NOT HIS for the Zerg to actually get all of that to happen requires pretty damn solid control.
The player with better control DOES win those battles, but ties go to the zerg and because the zerg has more mistakes to make those mistakes are potentially more impacting. Unless the Zerg does everything -perfectly- there's micro that the Protoss can do to counter the Zerg's micro, and because dead infestors can't NP and NPing infestors can't fungal, -any- mistake that is punished on the zerg's part has or can have a snowballing effect.
So no, I didn't unknowingly agree that infestors need to be nerfed, I just pointed out that on paper infestors > all but that's only with flawless control on the zerg's part and the Protoss doing nothing but keeping all his crap in a tight ball and crying imba after.
Infestors force your opponent to be careful with his engagements, exactly like siege tanks, colossus, and forcefields do. I don't see why this means it's imba, because I sure as shit can't attack into well-spread siege tanks or any Protoss deathball involving colossus/sentry without getting rofl'd all over.
Also, as a note, often infestors are the only anti-air a Zerg has to offer, which is a -giant- vulnerability that could/should be exploited more often. There's virtually no way for an infestor to energy-efficiently kill a (one) banshee and a couple phoenix should be able to trade cost-efficiently with infestors. Like high templar, it's very costly for infestors to defend themselves, and if they're the only thing that shoots air, you should be able to reduce the amount of energy he's got for an up-and-coming engagement. The biggest problem is getting the infrastructure necessary to get these air units
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On September 12 2011 02:54 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:50 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:56 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs...... Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP? Just watch Destiny's stream, he abuses it all the time... Stop using Destiny all the time ppl. He is the ONLY one that actually does it. Show an example in a professional tournament before you claim something is OP.
Stephano
He just won IPL Qualifier #3 by beating Kiwikaki, Puzzle, mma, revival and someone else I cant recall
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A lot of people have brought up the infestor's range advantage of fungal vs feedback, but there's one detail I haven't seen mentioned.
the infestor is about twice as wide as a high templar. The fungal range is 9 from the infestor's centre, and you can aim it so the splash goes a little bit beyond the edge.
The feedback range is 9 from the high templar's centre and it can hit as long as the infestor's hit circle overlaps with the range circle. If the infestor pokes a toe in range of HT, he can be fedbacked.
so the difference in range is the splash radius minus the infestor radius. It's still a range advantage for the infestor, but a narrow one.
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On September 12 2011 01:56 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:49 freewareplayer wrote:On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different If youve perfect micro, your probably also smart enough to get the idea to flank? Or drop some hts with a Warp prism behind the zerg ball, since the army will be in front of the infestors, easy feedbacks there? maybe 10 blink stalkers that are not in the main ball to snipe infestors? Maybe stop moving your whole army to the last unit in ONE ball? If you would use more than 1 control group for your army its more than possible to deny infestors in combat. Thats tips Zerg hears everytime when they have an issue, maybe now its time for protoss to hear it? Split up your infesters, NP thw warp prism and snipe it no more hts, 10+stalkers is more then worth a fungal or two and easy to catch if they are split off from the ball = free kills. The protoss army is supposed to work in a ball, its why they call it a death ball. Our units are much more powerful when clumped together(Under guardian shields and behind ff's etc). Thanks for the tips but you are a zerg player who clearly doesn't understand how the protoss army works.
You're bashing someone for attempting to offer a solution of your problem, but your answer is to do something that absolutely doesn't work? If keeping your army balled up WILL lose to infestors, while attempting to split MIGHT work if you have better control than your opponent- which solution do you choose? I don't think you're thinking about this rationally. Of course this could all change if patches solve the problem for you, but in the meantime you might to think outside the norm/box/ball/whatever.
This is like Zergs a few months ago complaining roach hydra didn't work against Collosi and FF. If doing the same thing as optimally as you can doesn't work (either by composition variance or tactics), then a new approach must be considered lest you fall to the same fate over and over again.
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Lol at Destiny's stream being the be-all-end-all of NP balance discussion. I could give two shits about ladder crusaders' use of NP. When was the last tome we saw NP on massive being abused in a GSL? Hell, in an MLG?
Please stop using Destiny vs the NA ladder as an example of infestor balance. It's a joke.
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On September 12 2011 03:10 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:31 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario. So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed! Wat. Yes, of COURSE the player with better control should win the battle. I was pointing out that although it's real easy to say LOOK LOL 10.5 RANGE > 9 RANGE CANT BLINK WHILE FUNGALD AND NP COLOSSUS SHOOT MY SHIT NOT HIS for the Zerg to actually get all of that to happen requires pretty damn solid control. The player with better control DOES win those battles, but ties go to the zerg and because the zerg has more mistakes to make those mistakes are potentially more impacting. Unless the Zerg does everything -perfectly- there's micro that the Protoss can do to counter the Zerg's micro, and because dead infestors can't NP and NPing infestors can't fungal, -any- mistake that is punished on the zerg's part has or can have a snowballing effect. So no, I didn't unknowingly agree that infestors need to be nerfed, I just pointed out that on paper infestors > all but that's only with flawless control on the zerg's part and the Protoss doing nothing but keeping all his crap in a tight ball and crying imba after. Infestors force your opponent to be careful with his engagements, exactly like siege tanks, colossus, and forcefields do. I don't see why this means it's imba, because I sure as shit can't attack into well-spread siege tanks or any Protoss deathball involving colossus/sentry without getting rofl'd all over.
the issue is that infestors in general don't require much positioning or control to use. the fact of the matter is that fungal should not obliterate everything and immobilize everything. i understand that you need some sort of way of dealing with stalkers, but you shouldn't be able to just shut down everything with one ability. furthermore, why must everything be a hard counter? if you can't deal with blink stalkers, you don't need some unit to make the stalker irrelevant. just get something that is generally good against blink stalkers but doesn't totally make it irrelevant. this is a fundamental problem with all protoss units: there's a very obvious hard counter to all of them, and the counter is so powerful that you might as well not even have any units at all. for example, a marauder ball makes a stalker ball absolutely useless, even with blink and great micro. similarly, blink stalkers are made essentially useless by a decent number of infestors. colossi? vikings. deathball? baneling drops to kill sentries then go surround.
i know i'm going to take a lot of flak for this, but the hydralisk is actually one of the better designed units in this game. you know why? cause it has a very specific purpose and does it well. it beats air and it counters stalkers. no shit it gets raped by mass colossi, as should it, because it's tier 2, but i fail to see why every race thinks they need some sort of 2-unit composition to beat everything. we protoss players have been meshing 4 or 5 different units per composition since beta, and yet terran and zerg qq if one unit doesn't do well in every situation. how do you think we feel when queens somehow beat t2 voidrays cost-for-cost? you know why they do? because pissy zergs were mad they couldn't hatch first and they didn't want to invest what they perceived to be dead resources into hydras/spore crawlers. but how's that fair? if you open greedily and another person punishes it, then you SHOULD have to deviate from your build to deal with it. you shouldn't be able to get by with your macro mechanic. imagine if i could just open nexus first against 6pool and survive because of chronoboost. it's ridiculous.
so yes, the infestor is imbalanced, and the reason is that it's not situational at all. it's good in every single circumstance except against mass HTs (but then lol that composition sucks anyway) and never represents a risky investment. in a game that's fundamentally about out-smarting your opponent, there should not be any mid-game "safe bets." that's the problem here. there's too many strategies midgame for terran/zerg which are virtually unpunishable. they don't have a conceivable non-allin weakness. and that's a big problem, because when i SEE a dt shrine being built, i can prepare for it, but when i see a ghost academy going down, or an infestation pit, there isn't really anything i can do to make the corresponding units a non-factor.
anyone who denies any of this is honestly deluded and doesn't understand what balance is.
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