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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work  ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor..  Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different
HT also has storm. 9 cast range and 1.5 radius.
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As a designer, I really dislike this balance approach that seems to be popular atm @ Blizz:
In the end the balance choices are aimed at nerfing/ removing/ killing diversity and richness of options instead of trying to make more options viable to counter the problematic ones.
Maybe they are stripping the game to make room for future HOTS changes... (let's hope so.)
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On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor..
Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent.
I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well.
You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario.
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Well at least Ultralisks can be out a bit faster.
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wow.....blizzard will nerf this game to oblivion, just like wow it will be the race that get most patch love that will rule.
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On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist?
Destroying the unit is in no way equivalent to taking it over into your control for a brief period of time. Infestors who NP can often easily be sniped and FF, which counters the ability.
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On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything...
You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them.
FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition....
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On September 11 2011 22:00 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up.
The diff also being that sling/infestor comp is easy to gets lots of infestors since your gas ins't going to much of anything else....
other races can't get away with that.
MVP was on 4 bases and had won the game 10 minutes ago. The ghost were just the nail in the coffin since he really outclassed julyzerg that game.
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On September 12 2011 01:07 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Force Field, Neural Parasite, and Fungal growth, are 3 spells that can immediately neutralize ennemy units. Probably, none of those spells should exist, but the bottomline is that they are required for balance. You can't simply remove forcefiled without giving protoss a way to deal with early game pressure. Well, you can't remove fungal & neural parasite without giving zergs a way to deal with deathballs. How are zergs supposed to deal with mass thors+bfh+scv ?? If you search TL forum, you will see how many diamond zerg (when there was no master) have been struggling with this composition, and the solution that was given was ... get NP. Well, of course you can deal with 3or 4 thors without, but once they reach a critical mass, they obliterate roaches, magic box become useless, and even a sylver league terran should be able to scan zerg tech to make sure to push before BL. Give zergs a siege unit like colossus, and they won't need NP anymore. Or make broodlord a lair unit, that should work too.
Aside from your idea of making broods lair would we ridiculous i agree with most of what you say. As a toss I hate FF being such a crutch for the race....
I am not saying that they don't need something else in replace of NP. I am saying that infestors are a bandaid for the race and they are too versatile. NP needed to go....
I personally think hydras need fixed...
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On September 12 2011 01:16 jazzbassmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Destroying the unit is in no way equivalent to taking it over into your control for a brief period of time. Infestors who NP can often easily be sniped and FF, which counters the ability.
You can't target down a infestor when your colossi are NP killing your own army. Nothing else has the range and HT are hit and miss. No reason a toss should have to get out colossi and HT tech out to beat ling/infestor.....
So your right its even worse than I thought... My units get NP and then I not only lose the unit BUT also take damage from my own colossi.
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On September 12 2011 01:24 Rorschach wrote:
Aside from your idea of making broods lair would we ridiculous i agree with most of what you say. As a toss I hate FF being such a crutch for the race....
I think a better idea would be Ultralisk at Lair, have the armor upgrade and also Neural Parasite require Hive.
I'd be interested to see how that would work out.
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On September 12 2011 01:13 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Only if the Zerg actually has better control than his opponent. I've done or tried to use armies with infestors as the core, neural parasiting, fungaling, and throwing terrans to victory... but what often happens is my opponent will simply have better control than me, sending split groups of templars to feedback my shit, using any un-NP'd colossus to laser the NPing infestors, and blinking any stalkers unfungalled into range of the infestors as well. You say oh just chain fungal + neural like it isn't a thing, but you've got to realize that it HAS to be well executed or you'll lose all your shit because of the way neural works. You've literally GOT TO fungal every single stalker (or they'll blink) and high templar (Feedbackuuuuuuuuuu) as well as neural parasite every single colossus to remove all chances of protoss micro to victory. I'll fully and completely admit that the ball -is- the Zerg's to drop, but you're saying LOL JUST HOLD TEH BALL UP without noting that the ball is one of them toothy spiky gnashy things from mario.
So wait you are saying the person with better control should win the battle? Holy shit so imba! The fact is if used properly infesters basically can counter almost any unit in the game right now and that's just not right, no one unit should be able to kill everything the opponent makes. So if your opponent has better micro and can blink dodge a fungal and get off a feedback before you can fungal(Which he never should fungal has longer range and splash effect), then he/she deserves to win those bottles. You shouldn't be able to mas one unit and roflstomp people who have better unit control then you just because your unit destroys everything that is imbalanced and by saying that you have basically unknowingly agreed that infesters need to be nerfed!
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On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition....
Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!)
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On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!)
Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more..
Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is....
The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game.......
The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs......
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On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition....
I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade?
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On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different
If youve perfect micro, your probably also smart enough to get the idea to flank?
Or drop some hts with a Warp prism behind the zerg ball, since the army will be in front of the infestors, easy feedbacks there?
maybe 10 blink stalkers that are not in the main ball to snipe infestors?
Maybe stop moving your whole army to the last unit in ONE ball? If you would use more than 1 control group for your army its more than possible to deny infestors in combat.
Thats tips Zerg hears everytime when they have an issue, maybe now its time for protoss to hear it?
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On September 12 2011 01:47 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... I'll give you my Neural parasite in all it's glory for your FF. Trade?
The difference here is Protoss will lose 95% of the time in early game with out sentries for forcefields...... NP needed to be nerfed though I think they went a bit extreme, but it was for too easy for a zerg with 10+ infesters to win late game battles, NP all the power units and spam fungal = GG(This is assuming you are about the same skill and control as your opponent). Which in my opinion was slightly imba, they should have just increased the spell energy cost or something maybe drop the range by 1 so it makes the micro battle more intensive?
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On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs......
I think Destiny gets bashed too much. I'd say he is mechanically far superior to many other grandmasters.
ihmo Neural parasite should get removed or completely remade, but before it happens there should
be pretty dramatic changes to Hydralisk and Corruptor. Possibly to overseer as well.
For some reason I think these changes are aimed towards players in Diamond or below where
people don't have the apm required to deal with their core units being mind controlled.
I haven't seen NP being overused or abused in the pro scene at all.
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On September 12 2011 01:40 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:33 Big J wrote:On September 12 2011 01:19 Rorschach wrote:On September 12 2011 00:49 me_viet wrote:On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist? Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything... You don't see people blindly MASSING sentries in every MU and winning games with them. FF is one ability whereas the infestor has three really good abilities. It is simply too versatile of a caster that works for any composition.... Well, I have seen MC win 2 GSL titles with Sentry play, while neither NesTea nor Losira (nor Fruitdealer) are playing this hardcore Infestorstyle in ZvP and ZvT (don't get me wrong, they use Infestors, but not in the way people talk about in this thread... Only Destiny really goes Massinfestor all the time, and he still hasn't won anything big - not even come close!) Those game are pretty bad examples to make a point and there is good reason no one sees that playstyle any more.. Zergs have sine received fungal buffs and realize just how damn good hive tech is.... The closest you get to seeing it anymore is Huk moving out with 8-9 sentries and a zlot to poke (not outright win the game). If you lose the sentries its game....... The only reason destiny is even GM if because of infestors. After this patch he will go back to master where he belongs......
Well then in that regards, can you show a game where Z won because of mass NP?
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On September 12 2011 01:49 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different If youve perfect micro, your probably also smart enough to get the idea to flank? Or drop some hts with a Warp prism behind the zerg ball, since the army will be in front of the infestors, easy feedbacks there? maybe 10 blink stalkers that are not in the main ball to snipe infestors? Maybe stop moving your whole army to the last unit in ONE ball? If you would use more than 1 control group for your army its more than possible to deny infestors in combat. Thats tips Zerg hears everytime when they have an issue, maybe now its time for protoss to hear it?
Split up your infesters, NP thw warp prism and snipe it no more hts, 10+stalkers is more then worth a fungal or two and easy to catch if they are split off from the ball = free kills. The protoss army is supposed to work in a ball, its why they call it a death ball. Our units are much more powerful when clumped together(Under guardian shields and behind ff's etc). Thanks for the tips but you are a zerg player who clearly doesn't understand how the protoss army works.
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