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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie.
Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work 
..oh wait they've been NPed..
Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD
...hmm.. chain fungal..
Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D
..ah.. fungal has a longer range..
Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor..
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Awesome patch, the mothership is becoming more like the arbiter. I'll be using motherships for attacking and recalling to base when enough damage is done. I like the change to Neural Parasite, but it shouldn't be researchable now because it got nerfed so much it should be stock ability (I play protoss) EMP needs to be researchable and marauders still need either stim or conc shells removed from them.
All in all I like the ultra change, it's good that they will be used more now.
The warp prism and the immortal changes were much needed changes since long time back, thank god Blizzard has heard my pleas.
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Canada13393 Posts
Apparently theres a bug on PTR atm where NP does continue to work on massive. Just letting people know
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I think, in my modest opinion, the best way to balance the infestor is to remove pathogen glands and change the NP cost energy to 125.
I like to compare the "infestors instafungal / broodlords " composition to the old "ht with amulet /colossus" combo that was nerfed some month ago.
Now at this time, with mass infestors (10+) and some broodlords you can destroy/counter everything with the impossibility, for protoss, to do a decent harrass to stop that if you fail the timing push at around 10 min mark with the 7 gate push or similars.
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do any terran on PTR feel that the build rax increase will make defending proxygates harder?
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On September 11 2011 23:36 kvmetternich wrote:
I think, in my modest opinion, the best way to balance the infestor is to remove pathogen glands and change the NP cost energy to 125.
I like to compare the "infestors instafungal / broodlords " composition to the old "ht with amulet /colossus" combo that was nerfed some month ago.
Now at this time, with mass infestors (10+) and some broodlords you can destroy/counter everything with the impossibility, for protoss, to do a decent harrass to stop that if you fail the timing push at around 10 min mark with the 7 gate push or similars.
If HT can't be warped in anywhere where there's pylon power, then yes, your comparision would be correct. However the problem was that when you get KA, P gains the ability to convert gas to dps whereever they have pylon power when needed. When Ghosts are trained, or infestors hatched, they have to walk to where they are needed. Not so with HT with amulet researched.
We saw this in that game on Terminus (can't remember which, but it was GSTL) where the P justs mass expo everywhere while warping in HT's with storm to defend whenever he needs to fall back. T could never push in since when he wins a battle the worn army would justs get stormed to death.
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Instead of allowing NP to not hit massive units, maybe it shouldn't be able to hit Psionic.
That way NP doesn't work on Archons or Motherships, which seems to be the reason behind the change, while still effecting Colossus, Brood Lords, Thors and BC's. Obviously no change for Ultras.
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On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor..
 Fungal Growth
Feedback
Both have range 9
Stop spreading misinformation
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On September 11 2011 23:36 kvmetternich wrote:
I think, in my modest opinion, the best way to balance the infestor is to remove pathogen glands and change the NP cost energy to 125.
I like to compare the "infestors instafungal / broodlords " composition to the old "ht with amulet /colossus" combo that was nerfed some month ago.
Now at this time, with mass infestors (10+) and some broodlords you can destroy/counter everything with the impossibility, for protoss, to do a decent harrass to stop that if you fail the timing push at around 10 min mark with the 7 gate push or similars.
Nope, if you compare a zerg/terran/protoss player who all pay for their ground spellcaster unit at the same time once the zerg/terran caster comes out the protoss has enough energy for storm.
Having to wait 50 seconds for an infestor to come out after paying the 100/150 cost just for it to have to wait another 50 seconds to be able to use fungal is ridiculous and 150 seconds after it hatches to use NP is stupid aswell.
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On September 11 2011 18:25 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 18:03 AnxiousHippo wrote:We need a video, preferably in the OP about the baneling drop change. The infestor change will also mean corrupters are now the counter to Colossi again and Thors may become more annoying... Ling/Bling/Ultra will still be an interesting late game unit composition vs Toss, no more Forcefield worries! Edit:Idra's thoughts + Show Spoiler +Nassif: The most recent addition to the patch notes is that neural parasite can no longer target massive units. What are your thoughts on this change? How does this affect the way you have been currently using infestors in your play style?
EG.IdrA: It is utterly retarded, the entire purpose of neural parasite is to take key units from your opponents army for a brief period of time. The vast majority of units that you want to target are massive type, collosus, motherships, archons, thors. With this change there’s essentially no reason to get neural parasite and certain strategies, such as thor hellion timings, will become overpowered.
Nassif: How does the infestor change affect your other match ups (ZvT and ZvZ)?
EG.IdrA: It’ll make the muta style I’ve been favoring slighlty more powerful ZvZ as it means banelings wont die in 1 shot anymore, I believe. ZvT will get slightly harder due to the fungal nerf and thors specifically will become much stronger with the change to neural.
Nassif: The overseer has two major changes. The first one is that its morph cost is being decreased from 50/100 down to 50/50. With this decrease in gas, does this help with the obvious scouting problems Zerg faces? Does the increase in contaminate energy cost, from 75 to 125, have any major effects?
EG.IdrA: The change to the gas cost is pretty big, Zerg is often desperately in need of faster scouting information and that will help with that significantly. It’s not the best way for them to address the problem but with Blizzard you take what you can get. The increase in contaminate cost is necessary with the cheaper overseers, as chain contaminate would’ve become too powerful and easy with 50 gas overseers. That strategy wasn’t used much at all in the current state of the game so not much will change, it’ll just continue to not be used.
Nassif: The ultralisk’s build time has been decreased from 70 down to 55. You have stated that this was not the problem with the ultralisk. What do you think this decreased build time will do for late game Zergs? What changes do you think are necessary for the ultralisk?
EG.IdrA: It could help ZvT, in high econ games constant tech switches between ultras and broodlords will become quite strong vs terrans who rely on vikings to counter broodlords. However vsTerrans who use ghosts to counter everything it wont change that much. Ultras are unlikely to become good because it just has such strong counters within the game, both immortals and marauders destroy them at silly cost efficiency. The biggest problem with ultras is probably their size and mobility, thats the first thing I would try to address.
These are the major patch changes and all of them are subject to change until the patch finally goes live. It will be interesting to see if some of the more controversial changes, such as the infestor nerfs, make it into the final version of patch 1.4.0. If the change do stay, it will be interesting to see how Zerg adapts, and how play styles that depended heavily on infestors cope with these changes. I just tested it on ptr, everything worked just right. The change that affects drops is "Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location." Probably he just right clicked drop on a fog area and when it didn't work he's like "Wtf just happened". I will try to upload a video when i can.
Nope, I did a moving drop over a tightly packed group of immortals and the names were dropping to the outside on the PTR and the inside on the regular server. Try it in a unit test map. If there are holes in the ball, the blings will drop there otherwise they drop on the outside.
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On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation
Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10.
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On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10.
"Basically"
If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then.
Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts.
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Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work
..oh wait they've been NPed..
Snipe the infestor neuraling with stalker. If he's out of range, ask yourself what a 9range colossus is doing in melee range.
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On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts.
He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different
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On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different
Perhaps, given the speed disadvantage, protoss should think of a way to feedback infestors that doesn't include just moving forward and hoping he misses.
Protoss often claimed that Zergs should flank and dodge forcefield micro. You can't A-Move with a mass of Roach/Hydra into a death ball. So perhaps the same rings true for HT vs Infestor? I suppose it comes down to re-building protoss mentality a little bit.
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Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist?
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On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist?
Just like how FF is an i-win button right? I mean basically, you cast FF and then destroy stuff with no retaliation while the opponent can't do anything...
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On September 12 2011 00:37 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 00:24 -{Cake}- wrote:On September 12 2011 00:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 12 2011 00:20 tntrieu wrote:On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation Fungal is an AOE attack so it basically has a range of 10. "Basically" If you see a clump of stalkers, very rarely does someone Fungal on the very edge to take advantage of this. They'll fungal the centre to try to make sure it connects. The AI will cast this attack at range 9 then. Feedback can directly hit a target and is not a skill shot. Swings and Roundabouts. He was specifically referring to ht vs infestors, where with perfect micro from both sides, ht don't touch infestors because they get frozen inside 10, but outside 9 due to fungal being aoe, obviously vs stalkers it's different Perhaps, given the speed disadvantage, protoss should think of a way to feedback infestors that doesn't include just moving forward and hoping he misses. Protoss often claimed that Zergs should flank and dodge forcefield micro. You can't A-Move with a mass of Roach/Hydra into a death ball. So perhaps the same rings true for HT vs Infestor? I suppose it comes down to re-building protoss mentality a little bit.
I don't see how you are going to flank with protoss since their units benefit the most while being together.
And I don't think the HT is going to be good for flanking either since they are so slow and would be easily picked by speedlings or whatnot before they can get to deal enough damage to justify their use for a flank. With warp prism it might be possible, but if it get fungaled it is pretty much dead transport then.
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On September 12 2011 00:11 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On September 11 2011 22:15 freewareplayer wrote:On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote:
A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer.
So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much.
I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. Oh ok I'll get collossus that will work ..oh wait they've been NPed.. Ah but blink stalkers will work :DD ...hmm.. chain fungal.. Oh well, the supposedly hard counter, High Templar with feedback :D ..ah.. fungal has a longer range.. Please stop making stupid statements like that. A lot of lategame armies consist of blink stalker/collo/hts and they get crushed by infestor.. Fungal GrowthFeedbackBoth have range 9 Stop spreading misinformation
FG has 9 range, + the radius of the spell = i think like 10.5..
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On September 12 2011 00:44 Rorschach wrote:
Neural parasite would be more balanced if it just destroyed the unit for 100 energy cause that is what it does in a nutshell. So be honest and ask yourselves if spell like that should exist?
Force Field, Neural Parasite, and Fungal growth, are 3 spells that can immediately neutralize ennemy units.
Probably, none of those spells should exist, but the bottomline is that they are required for balance.
You can't simply remove forcefiled without giving protoss a way to deal with early game pressure.
Well, you can't remove fungal & neural parasite without giving zergs a way to deal with deathballs.
How are zergs supposed to deal with mass thors+bfh+scv ??
If you search TL forum, you will see how many diamond zerg (when there was no master) have been struggling with this composition, and the solution that was given was ... get NP.
Well, of course you can deal with 3or 4 thors without, but once they reach a critical mass, they obliterate roaches, magic box become useless, and even a sylver league terran should be able to scan zerg tech to make sure to push before BL.
Give zergs a siege unit like colossus, and they won't need NP anymore. Or make broodlord a lair unit, that should work too.
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EPT
