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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 11 2011 21:22 flodeskum wrote: It still works. It doesn't work if you unload all you ovies without vision... but who does that? ty. I guess I can stay with my bling drop-strategies then  Don't like infestors vs toss anyway... still it's annoying to have 1 of 2 options cut out with this patch... | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
On September 11 2011 20:57 Seraphic wrote: A battle in SC2, (weather if it is important or not) is won in a matter of seconds. A Toss army especially crumbles very fast without there support units. (Colossus, VRs, Archon, and Immortals) 15 seconds of Neural is more then enough to sway the battle in favor of the Zerg. By the time it is over, with the Toss ground army basically gone, the support units will not last that much longer. So please stop saying 15 seconds isn't much. I agree with this change. It makes it situational. You can still control HTs, Void Rays, and Immortals. (Siege Tanks) Not to mention Fungal still stops units in there tracks, that's the important part. This isn't the end of the world. While it is harder to stop a Colossus or Thor, Zergs will still have there ways to stop them. Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. | ||
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shouri
90 Posts
On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote: Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote: Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up. | ||
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Miller
United States77 Posts
Really Infested Terrans can and should be used more in large engagements. Try attacking at a Protoss base with mass Infested Terrans along with your army. You force the Protoss to fight and the Protoss has a huge disadvantage because of the extra 50 supply and damage ITs put out is more than Marines. Thats 50 extra marines in a fight. NP should be removed all together, there should never be a spell that does what NP does imo. Taking out a races best units for even 5 seconds in a battle will turn the tide enough everytime for Z to win. Just think about it from Ps point of view, NP is ridiculous. Its pretty obvious if something isn't done, then there will be no Protoss left in Code S or in the finals or even final 4 of any tournament (because Toss really has no chance against Terran who uses ghosts efficiently). Even with the rant I just put up, it's really sad that Blizz is nerfing Z before nerfing Terran. Terran has so many OP units compared to what the other races have, the Ghost (EMP and Snipe combined with cloak) and Mule mostly... O well thats another discussion. *On another note buffing is better than nerfing* Terran was so well made and the other races were just thrown together it seems like. Terran is a very dynamic and exciting race and makes SC great. If the other races were designed as well as Terran then maybe nerfs wouldn't be needed! | ||
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chestnutman
176 Posts
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oLDcamel
Portugal1 Post
On September 11 2011 22:00 BigKahunaBurger wrote: If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up. If that's the answer why are you allowing the protoss to mass collossus? Just curious after that answer. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:09 chestnutman wrote: I was curious about the baneling thing and tried it out. They didn't change anything to it. If you try drop banelings on a tightly packed group of zealots it will give you an error message already in the current patch. The thing is protoss will never have such a super tight ball, the units spread always spread out a bit. Protoss death balls pack naturally when you move them, and are often tightly packed. You said dropping banelings on an army gave you an error message? When I did it they just dropped on the side. Were you definitely not allied with the zealots? | ||
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wonkwink
United States8 Posts
As we saw in Mvp vs. July game 2, and DongRaeGu vs. Bomber game 1 at Raleigh, terran is already perfectly capable of fighting against broodlord/infestor/ultras in the lategame. This is due to their new discovery that mass snipe/emp ghost is really good against ALL zerg lategame units. And while I can't think of a specific example of protoss deathball killing off zerg lategame in the pros (someone help me out here?), it happens a lot... and many zergs in the pros will try to all in protoss if they are on a map like tal darim altar where protoss can easily grab 3 bases. I heard someone saying how effective bling drops are against deathball, but this only works against what I would call the demi deathball. This is when protoss has the mix of collosus/templar/void but is still using some stalkers sentries and zealots. A true deathball uses a lot of archons and baneling drops are not very effective against it. So unless someone can prove to us that zerg in the lategame is overpowered, or is atleast able to dominate over the other races deathballs, I don't see why we are nerfing zerg's lategame ability to deal with deathballs. I would like if people would reference games that either show zerg lategame is almost DEFINATELY OP and needs both a neural and a fungal nerf, or that show that zerg lategame is definately not OP, maybe even UP, and a nerf on fungal and NP are unecessary. If we have a lot of professional level games that give evidence to discuss this...we will be able to draw conclusions without a lot of theorycrafting. If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up. No. How do you stop someone from getting the prefered army they want in the lategame? It is a terrible argument to say that it is fair that someone can make a unit composition that can't be dealt with by the fact that the other player is able to prevent it from happening. It leads to horrible gameplay if one player gets an automatic win just because the other player didn't kill him before the 30 minute mark (random example number). If terran doesn't have to kill zerg before a certain point or zerg will have an unstopable army, why should zerg be put in that position? (I am not saying that this is the case, I am just saying that it is rediculous to call it justifyable if it were.) | ||
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freewareplayer
Germany403 Posts
On September 11 2011 21:49 shouri wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 11 2011 21:44 BigKahunaBurger wrote: Excellent post. You completely shut down any criticism of the NP nerf without offering any way to solve it. Your only answer is "Zergs will still have ways to stop mass thor or colossi". Brilliant. Care to share what they would be? Outside of mass corrupter or broodlords? As for the 15 seconds comment, perhaps that is true, but the time really isn't an issue. Good players will snipe the infestor NPing the colossi/thor/mothership after 1 or 2 volleys, and very rarely will you reach the end of the time limit in a huge battle. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). Did you hear that guys? Lategame might sometimes be a bit HARD micro wise for protoss, if he lets the Zerg max a bazillion of infestors. Surely we dont want any strategy that requires intense micro to counter it in this game. Nerf NP quick so our Protoss brother here doesnt have a hard time microing and can play easy instead. In any other topic, there would have been a rain of warning and temp bans for all the bullshit in here. Just because something is HARD to deal with, does not make it imbalanced. Ht, Blinkstalkers as well as 9 Colossus range can all be used to get rid of Nping Infestors, so there is a counter. USE IT. Theres a lot of good protoss that crush infestor play like that. The others just scout infestor but cannot be bothered building a proper counter. If scouting and building a counter which requires intense micro is too "hard" and you want an easy game, play barbie. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:09 oLDcamel wrote: If that's the answer why are you allowing the protoss to mass collossus? Just curious after that answer. Mass collosus is shit. 4-6 Collosus with a gateway army is good. I do'nt care if you mass 15 collosus, i'm fine with that | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:16 me_viet wrote: Mass collosus is shit. 4-6 Collosus with a gateway army is good. I do'nt care if you mass 15 collosus, i'm fine with that More than 4 Colossus is concidered to be Mass colossus. | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:09 oLDcamel wrote: If that's the answer why are you allowing the protoss to mass collossus? Just curious after that answer. This goes back to Zerg being generally a reactive race. Zerg doesn't "allow" anything. Zerg must (and this is just general theorycrafting) react to the tech choices of the opponent in the early and mid-game in order to build up a good economic advantage. Generally, if you're expanding and whatnot, you don't just "stop" someone going colossi. You react accordingly. If you try to 'stop' someone going down a tech path as Zerg, that means you're driving headfirst with roach/ling into his wall or going mass drop/nydus into his base and crossing your fingers. Sometimes sniping is a little hard when they have 15 infestors worth of energy to fungal your army (which has a longer range than feedback). But Colossi weren't really that major thing I was worried about with the NP nerf. I was more concerned about the huge mech armies that Terran are going to be rolling out with. It doesn't even take that many Thors to make a strong push almost unbeatable. A damn sight less than 15 fo sho. | ||
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chestnutman
176 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:11 hitpoint wrote: Protoss death balls pack naturally when you move them, and are often tightly packed. You said dropping banelings on an army gave you an error message? When I did it they just dropped on the side. Were you definitely not allied with the zealots? It drops to the side if you are close to the edge of the zealot pack, but in the middle it gives an error. Anyway, in a natural protoss death ball that is moving there will always be some hole for a baneling to drop, unless the player manually makes it clump together super tightly. | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:14 wonkwink wrote: The deathball is the main problem with zvt/zvp matchups. There was one point where broodlord/infestor was starting to become really effective even against other races in the lategame, but now the other races are just getting stronger with their deathballs. As we saw in Mvp vs. July game 2, and DongRaeGu vs. Bomber game 1 at Raleigh, terran is already perfectly capable of fighting against broodlord/infestor/ultras in the lategame. This is due to their new discovery that mass snipe/emp ghost is really good against ALL zerg lategame units. And while I can't think of a specific example of protoss deathball killing off zerg lategame in the pros (someone help me out here?), it happens a lot... and many zergs in the pros will try to all in protoss if they are on a map like tal darim altar where protoss can easily grab 3 bases. I heard someone saying how effective bling drops are against deathball, but this only works against what I would call the demi deathball. This is when protoss has the mix of collosus/templar/void but is still using some stalkers sentries and zealots. A true deathball uses a lot of archons and baneling drops are not very effective against it. So unless someone can prove to us that zerg in the lategame is overpowered, or is atleast able to dominate over the other races deathballs, I don't see why we are nerfing zerg's lategame ability to deal with deathballs. I would like if people would reference games that either show zerg lategame is almost DEFINATELY OP and needs both a neural and a fungal nerf, or that show that zerg lategame is definately not OP, maybe even UP, and a nerf on fungal and NP are unecessary. If we have a lot of professional level games that give evidence to discuss this...we will be able to draw conclusions without a lot of theorycrafting. No. How do you stop someone from getting the prefered army they want in the lategame? It is a terrible argument to say that it is fair that someone can make a unit composition that can't be dealt with by the fact that the other player is able to prevent it from happening. It leads to horrible gameplay if one player gets an automatic win just because the other player didn't kill him before the 30 minute mark (random example number). If terran doesn't have to kill zerg before a certain point or zerg will have an unstopable army, why should zerg be put in that position? (I am not saying that this is the case, I am just saying that it is rediculous to call it justifyable if it were.) Uhh dude, thats sort of the point of Starcraft, to get your absolute perfect army. The whole point is to stop your opponent from doing the same? Why else do you think you harass and kill probes? No it's not because probes are the best units, its because you want to slow his economy so he can't reach "perfect" army point sooner. Sometimes, if you don't kill him before a certain point and don't harass, you deserve to lose. Tyler once said that there have to be situations where one army beats another. There has to be. There has to be a point where 20 battlecruisers beat everything else. And if a zerg doesnt touch the terran and lets him get them all out, then yes, he deserves to lose. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:17 Noocta wrote: More than 4 Colossus is concidered to be Mass colossus. According to who? I'm fine with having up to 6 colossi in a PvZ deathball, but that's where I draw the line, thus in my opinion "Mass" colossi is 7+. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:00 BigKahunaBurger wrote: If you're letting them get up 15 infestors without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. It's like when people were saying ghosts were imba after MVP sniped JulyZerg's entire army. Well he shouldn't have been allowed to get 15 of them up. If you're letting toss get a bunch of collosus without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. There just proved using your logic that NP was never needed. If you let your opponent get a bunch of collosus you deserved to lose so why should you have a counter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't make silly statements like that, if the game is over for one side as long as the other get x number of 1 unit. It's not balanced. | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:23 Feartheguru wrote: If you're letting toss get a bunch of collosus without combating it properly, then the result is probably justified. There just proved using your logic that NP was never needed. If you let your opponent get a bunch of collosus you deserved to lose so why should you have a counter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't make silly statements like that, if the game is over for one side as long as the other get x number of 1 unit. It's not balanced. Uhhh, Zerg WERE combating it properly? Neural Parasite was part of the strategy? That's why they're so upset by this change? Am I talking to a wall? Whats a good reaction to someone getting out lots of Colossi? Oh, I'll get out infestors and NP them. When I talk about deserving to lose, I'm talking about getting so many units that the removal of an ability would not matter. This is not the case in this particular situation. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
It gives them a better chance against neural, with it's range of 9, and Ghosts, which are, in my opinion, completely OP against the Protoss army. Seriously, I am flabbergasted Blizzard's nerfing Neural Parasite before EMP of all things. It's 100 instant AoE damage against Protoss that also removes energy with a range of 10+2. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 11 2011 22:32 RockIronrod wrote: A simpler thing to do would be buff feedback to 10. It gives them a better chance against neural, with it's range of 9, and Ghosts, which are, in my opinion, completely OP against the Protoss army. Seriously, I am flabbergasted Blizzard's nerfing Neural Parasite before EMP of all things. It's 100 instant AoE damage against Protoss that also removes energy with a range of 10+2. That would make so much sense. Seriously, it would be good for both matchups. | ||
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