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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
the archon is a much more fickle unit to counter. The only unit to effectively counter the Archon is the Broodlord at this point, and that's way too much tech required to counter a Gateway unit.
Saying the archon is a gateway unit would be like calling all the zerg units "hatch tech" because you can produce them from any hatch. (although it is technically true :D)
Archons are an arsehole to deal with (think I've lost every ZvP when I've faced them in significant numbers, not having figured out the correct response) but they are a *heavy* tech investment from a 'toss, and very expensive.
If I could just mass roach ling to beat it, the unit would need a serious buff.
It's expensive, and reasonably slow to tech to (the HT tech path for instance feels like it takes a billion years from the protoss perspective; the whole while having a large investment in something that's a lovely decorative paperweight for several tense minutes)
That said, the NP nerf makes little to no sense to me considering the short duration, range and reasonable fragility of the caster.
The biggest argument against archons is the fact you get them for "free" after burning storm energy on HT's.
I'd prefer to see a build time nerf than anything.
Archons have a place in SC2, and SHOULD be terrifying, but morphing them mid battle, and having the ball move with your army, feels a little too much.
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On September 11 2011 12:52 marcelluspye wrote:
I'm watching a BW cast right now (I'm not that familiar with brood war, but I do enjoy watching it) and the protoss is using storm drops, something that is not used to my knowledge in SC2. Is this something that could be used if warp prisms are harder to pick off?
Warprism in SC2 is like paperplane, not much toss wanna risk a huge investment into it, just like MC lost 1 warprism with like 3 HTs in it to Puma and lost the game right away cuz no storm. So that's why in this patch you see a buff for it.
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On September 11 2011 12:15 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 12:10 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 11:55 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 11 2011 11:29 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about? pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point. Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead. WAIT WHAT? Where are you getting this from? I just tested it on the PTR. You can no longer drop units within a tightly packed ball, banes drop on the outside of the group. Yay for buffing deathball! try it in the current patch, I think it was already like that
Nope, works fine in the current patch.
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Works fine in the current patch, doesnt work on PTR anymore. So baneling drops are no option
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On September 11 2011 14:53 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 12:52 marcelluspye wrote:
I'm watching a BW cast right now (I'm not that familiar with brood war, but I do enjoy watching it) and the protoss is using storm drops, something that is not used to my knowledge in SC2. Is this something that could be used if warp prisms are harder to pick off? Warprism in SC2 is like paperplane, not much toss wanna risk a huge investment into it, just like MC lost 1 warprism with like 3 HTs in it to Puma and lost the game right away cuz no storm. So that's why in this patch you see a buff for it.
Also storm in SC1 does MASSIVE dps (killing many units almost instantly). When storm hits your workers in SC1 they all are dead, you have to micro them before this happens. In SC2 you can just run them out of the storm and they wont die.
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On September 11 2011 16:34 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 14:53 tuho12345 wrote:On September 11 2011 12:52 marcelluspye wrote:
I'm watching a BW cast right now (I'm not that familiar with brood war, but I do enjoy watching it) and the protoss is using storm drops, something that is not used to my knowledge in SC2. Is this something that could be used if warp prisms are harder to pick off? Warprism in SC2 is like paperplane, not much toss wanna risk a huge investment into it, just like MC lost 1 warprism with like 3 HTs in it to Puma and lost the game right away cuz no storm. So that's why in this patch you see a buff for it. Also storm in SC1 does MASSIVE dps (killing many units almost instantly). When storm hits your workers in SC1 they all are dead, you have to micro them before this happens. In SC2 you can just run them out of the storm and they wont die.
same for tanks, its because units clamped up pretty easily in sc2.
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Rax nerf AGAIN? dang, i wish they would buff Hydras so they could be an actual viable unit.
Kinda bummed out for the Hellion nerf as well, they were good but not OP, now they are useless.
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On September 11 2011 16:37 Q8_Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 16:34 Velocirapture wrote:On September 11 2011 14:53 tuho12345 wrote:On September 11 2011 12:52 marcelluspye wrote:
I'm watching a BW cast right now (I'm not that familiar with brood war, but I do enjoy watching it) and the protoss is using storm drops, something that is not used to my knowledge in SC2. Is this something that could be used if warp prisms are harder to pick off? Warprism in SC2 is like paperplane, not much toss wanna risk a huge investment into it, just like MC lost 1 warprism with like 3 HTs in it to Puma and lost the game right away cuz no storm. So that's why in this patch you see a buff for it. Also storm in SC1 does MASSIVE dps (killing many units almost instantly). When storm hits your workers in SC1 they all are dead, you have to micro them before this happens. In SC2 you can just run them out of the storm and they wont die. same for tanks, its because units clamped up pretty easily in sc2.
Storms actually did less DPS in BW. It may be that if you factor in unit acceleration and other numbers that it was harder to maneuver out of a storm, but in SC2 storms do 80 damage over 4 seconds (2 ticks of 10 damage per second or 20 dps) and in BW storms do 112 damage over 7 seconds (16 dps). Unless you're limited by the number of psi storms you can cast, the SC2 psi storm is going to be better.
Additionally, SC2 Sieged Siege Tanks have higher DPS against armored targets/non-armored targets than BW Siege Tanks do against Large/Small targets. This is absolutely ignoring splash radius and the maximum number of units a tank could hit in a single shot, but I think it's clear that would be in favor of SC2's tank.
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On September 11 2011 16:04 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 12:15 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 12:10 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 11:55 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 11 2011 11:29 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about? pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point. Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead. WAIT WHAT? Where are you getting this from? I just tested it on the PTR. You can no longer drop units within a tightly packed ball, banes drop on the outside of the group. Yay for buffing deathball! try it in the current patch, I think it was already like that Nope, works fine in the current patch.
whaaaaat??? Are you telling me that they are removing the 2 most populars ways to deal with a Protoss Deathball, while buffing Immortals and Warp Prisms?
Can someone please confirm that, before I switch to terran?
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Wow,you cant baneling drop their armys anymore?what am I suppose to do now vs deathballs?: s
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No banelings drops either?! What the hell is happening Blizzard? No Neural Parasite, less dmg on Fungal, and now baneling drops won't be effective. Blizzard is taking away a ton of ways of fighting the Protoss deathball O_o The NP nerf was bad enough, I don't even...
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Can someone create a demonstration video of how baneling drops have been changed?
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is that really true?
Baneling drops are insanely cost effective, because they do instant damage unlike storm and cheaper and upgradable.
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What are you all smoking?
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We need a video, preferably in the OP about the baneling drop change. The infestor change will also mean corrupters are now the counter to Colossi again and Thors may become more annoying...
Ling/Bling/Ultra will still be an interesting late game unit composition vs Toss, no more Forcefield worries!
Edit:Idra's thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +Nassif: The most recent addition to the patch notes is that neural parasite can no longer target massive units. What are your thoughts on this change? How does this affect the way you have been currently using infestors in your play style?
EG.IdrA: It is utterly retarded, the entire purpose of neural parasite is to take key units from your opponents army for a brief period of time. The vast majority of units that you want to target are massive type, collosus, motherships, archons, thors. With this change there’s essentially no reason to get neural parasite and certain strategies, such as thor hellion timings, will become overpowered.
Nassif: How does the infestor change affect your other match ups (ZvT and ZvZ)?
EG.IdrA: It’ll make the muta style I’ve been favoring slighlty more powerful ZvZ as it means banelings wont die in 1 shot anymore, I believe. ZvT will get slightly harder due to the fungal nerf and thors specifically will become much stronger with the change to neural.
Nassif: The overseer has two major changes. The first one is that its morph cost is being decreased from 50/100 down to 50/50. With this decrease in gas, does this help with the obvious scouting problems Zerg faces? Does the increase in contaminate energy cost, from 75 to 125, have any major effects?
EG.IdrA: The change to the gas cost is pretty big, Zerg is often desperately in need of faster scouting information and that will help with that significantly. It’s not the best way for them to address the problem but with Blizzard you take what you can get. The increase in contaminate cost is necessary with the cheaper overseers, as chain contaminate would’ve become too powerful and easy with 50 gas overseers. That strategy wasn’t used much at all in the current state of the game so not much will change, it’ll just continue to not be used.
Nassif: The ultralisk’s build time has been decreased from 70 down to 55. You have stated that this was not the problem with the ultralisk. What do you think this decreased build time will do for late game Zergs? What changes do you think are necessary for the ultralisk?
EG.IdrA: It could help ZvT, in high econ games constant tech switches between ultras and broodlords will become quite strong vs terrans who rely on vikings to counter broodlords. However vsTerrans who use ghosts to counter everything it wont change that much. Ultras are unlikely to become good because it just has such strong counters within the game, both immortals and marauders destroy them at silly cost efficiency. The biggest problem with ultras is probably their size and mobility, thats the first thing I would try to address.
These are the major patch changes and all of them are subject to change until the patch finally goes live. It will be interesting to see if some of the more controversial changes, such as the infestor nerfs, make it into the final version of patch 1.4.0. If the change do stay, it will be interesting to see how Zerg adapts, and how play styles that depended heavily on infestors cope with these changes.
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On September 11 2011 17:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 16:04 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 12:15 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 12:10 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 11:55 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 11 2011 11:29 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about? pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point. Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead. WAIT WHAT? Where are you getting this from? I just tested it on the PTR. You can no longer drop units within a tightly packed ball, banes drop on the outside of the group. Yay for buffing deathball! try it in the current patch, I think it was already like that Nope, works fine in the current patch. whaaaaat??? Are you telling me that they are removing the 2 most populars ways to deal with a Protoss Deathball, while buffing Immortals and Warp Prisms? Can someone please confirm that, before I switch to terran?
I usually stay well clear from Balance discussions because I find that I simply do not have enough knowledge to state things that others haven't already stated before. But honestly I think I need to vent some frustration at this particular decision by Blizzard. If you're going to nerf NP, remove baneling drops without buffing anything else that is pretty much handing Toss free wins until the next patch.
Hell if these changes go through I'm switching too.
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On September 11 2011 18:03 AnxiousHippo wrote:
We need a video, preferably in the OP about the baneling drop change. The infestor change will also mean corrupters are now the counter to Colossi again and Thors may become more annoying...
Ling/Bling/Ultra will still be an interesting late game unit composition vs Toss, no more Forcefield worries!
lol voidrays wut?
There's probably a reason you don't see the current composition in todays meta.
Because Archons/Voidrays massacre it all day err day
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On September 11 2011 18:03 AnxiousHippo wrote:We need a video, preferably in the OP about the baneling drop change. The infestor change will also mean corrupters are now the counter to Colossi again and Thors may become more annoying... Ling/Bling/Ultra will still be an interesting late game unit composition vs Toss, no more Forcefield worries! Edit:Idra's thoughts + Show Spoiler +Nassif: The most recent addition to the patch notes is that neural parasite can no longer target massive units. What are your thoughts on this change? How does this affect the way you have been currently using infestors in your play style?
EG.IdrA: It is utterly retarded, the entire purpose of neural parasite is to take key units from your opponents army for a brief period of time. The vast majority of units that you want to target are massive type, collosus, motherships, archons, thors. With this change there’s essentially no reason to get neural parasite and certain strategies, such as thor hellion timings, will become overpowered.
Nassif: How does the infestor change affect your other match ups (ZvT and ZvZ)?
EG.IdrA: It’ll make the muta style I’ve been favoring slighlty more powerful ZvZ as it means banelings wont die in 1 shot anymore, I believe. ZvT will get slightly harder due to the fungal nerf and thors specifically will become much stronger with the change to neural.
Nassif: The overseer has two major changes. The first one is that its morph cost is being decreased from 50/100 down to 50/50. With this decrease in gas, does this help with the obvious scouting problems Zerg faces? Does the increase in contaminate energy cost, from 75 to 125, have any major effects?
EG.IdrA: The change to the gas cost is pretty big, Zerg is often desperately in need of faster scouting information and that will help with that significantly. It’s not the best way for them to address the problem but with Blizzard you take what you can get. The increase in contaminate cost is necessary with the cheaper overseers, as chain contaminate would’ve become too powerful and easy with 50 gas overseers. That strategy wasn’t used much at all in the current state of the game so not much will change, it’ll just continue to not be used.
Nassif: The ultralisk’s build time has been decreased from 70 down to 55. You have stated that this was not the problem with the ultralisk. What do you think this decreased build time will do for late game Zergs? What changes do you think are necessary for the ultralisk?
EG.IdrA: It could help ZvT, in high econ games constant tech switches between ultras and broodlords will become quite strong vs terrans who rely on vikings to counter broodlords. However vsTerrans who use ghosts to counter everything it wont change that much. Ultras are unlikely to become good because it just has such strong counters within the game, both immortals and marauders destroy them at silly cost efficiency. The biggest problem with ultras is probably their size and mobility, thats the first thing I would try to address.
These are the major patch changes and all of them are subject to change until the patch finally goes live. It will be interesting to see if some of the more controversial changes, such as the infestor nerfs, make it into the final version of patch 1.4.0. If the change do stay, it will be interesting to see how Zerg adapts, and how play styles that depended heavily on infestors cope with these changes.
I just tested it on ptr, everything worked just right. The change that affects drops is "Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location."
Probably he just right clicked drop on a fog area and when it didn't work he's like "Wtf just happened". I will try to upload a video when i can.
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On September 11 2011 17:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 16:04 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 12:15 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 12:10 chadissilent wrote:On September 11 2011 11:55 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 11 2011 11:29 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about? pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point. Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead. WAIT WHAT? Where are you getting this from? I just tested it on the PTR. You can no longer drop units within a tightly packed ball, banes drop on the outside of the group. Yay for buffing deathball! try it in the current patch, I think it was already like that Nope, works fine in the current patch. whaaaaat??? Are you telling me that they are removing the 2 most populars ways to deal with a Protoss Deathball, while buffing Immortals and Warp Prisms? Can someone please confirm that, before I switch to terran?
Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location.
According to this, it should happen if you ordered the drop via the minimap/map in a fog of war covered area. you should still be able to drop in clustered deathballs if you have vision.
Edit: i havent tested it. Im just theorycrafting according to the statement from the patch-notes.
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Blizzard seems to be really avoiding the problem with infestors. It is in no way the fact that they can NP massive units, they are really just avoiding the issue (chain fungals)
As a protoss player, i believe that really is ridiculous. It basically FORCES corruptors vs colossus, and completely changes the ZvP lategame into the Z doing the same thing every game.
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EPT
