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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 09:27 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 09:19 Marooned wrote:
After testing it out it seems like a nice patch from a T point of view. The hellion nerf might be bad for tvp if you use hellions against zealots, but they still work great for lings,blings and harvesters, so no big deal for me.
But what I dont get is the APM "fix". Whats that for? APM was botched enough as it was compared to bw, now its pretty worthless. Its hardly a tool to check average actions per minute any longer. If they are gonna implement this change, then they might as well remove it completely, because its totally useless now. At the least, curiosity's sake? I know I'm curious how everyone's new APM will measure up, compared to the current standard. As well as what will be considered average when taking the spam out of the picture.
they should have an option to see blizzard apm and true apm. Now how will we compare a bronzie to a GM if their APM is literally the same? No longer will the APM have a gap of 200+ but will only be about 5-10 APM apart. I sincerely hope blizzard allows both options because otherwise APM is a useless factor and will only make people think "it's ok to not play fast!" when that's not true at all! The more of a habit you get into playing fast the better you will be.
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To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting.
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On September 11 2011 10:52 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 09:27 Lomak wrote:On September 11 2011 09:19 Marooned wrote:
After testing it out it seems like a nice patch from a T point of view. The hellion nerf might be bad for tvp if you use hellions against zealots, but they still work great for lings,blings and harvesters, so no big deal for me.
But what I dont get is the APM "fix". Whats that for? APM was botched enough as it was compared to bw, now its pretty worthless. Its hardly a tool to check average actions per minute any longer. If they are gonna implement this change, then they might as well remove it completely, because its totally useless now. At the least, curiosity's sake? I know I'm curious how everyone's new APM will measure up, compared to the current standard. As well as what will be considered average when taking the spam out of the picture. they should have an option to see blizzard apm and true apm. Now how will we compare a bronzie to a GM if their APM is literally the same? No longer will the APM have a gap of 200+ but will only be about 5-10 APM apart. I sincerely hope blizzard allows both options because otherwise APM is a useless factor and will only make people think "it's ok to not play fast!" when that's not true at all! The more of a habit you get into playing fast the better you will be.
i have a strong feeling that a lot of pros with high apm will indeed still have high apms even post patch.
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On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting.
Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore?
Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf.
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At first I was skeptical about the neural parasite change, but now I can see a few benefits for the PvZ and TvZ matchup. allow me to explain
-Around a few months ago right about the time received its Fungal growth buff, it was starting to become known that zerg players could mass nothing but Infestors and zerglings and come out on top. It became a good way to change the matchup against the protoss standard stalker/collossus/sentry deathball because if the zerg was able to engage his lings while using fungal growth holding the deathball in place, and then manages to Neural parasite at least 3 collosus, not only will the Protoss player lose a lot of his AoE firepower, it's being turned against him, and he'll have lots of trouble trying to snipe the Np'ing infestors due to fungal growth holding his army in place. The battle will usually result in the protoss losing his army, and then the game shortly after.
-What i've seen on the ladder is protoss players going for mass gateway + ht composition, to make archons and to counter against the infamous infestor/ling strategy. Since archons are generally good against everything in the zerg army(although not too much against roaches). If the zerg player can scout the composition(mass gateway + ht can be scouted with an ovie, and with the overseer cost nerf, it'll be easier to spot what you need), he can make a transition to Roach/infestor to np the archons and deal heavy damage against the Zealots, or pure roach itself, and be able to hard counter the composition.
-with the Np change, the sentry/stalker/collosus deathball can be brought back, however I feel that the Zerg race has been exposed to different methods of dealing with the deathball rather than having corrupters for collossi(I agree, they're pretty terrible for dealing with the protoss deathball)
-In the TvZ matchup, mech will become more viable than before, due to infestors being able to Np the majority of the thor based army and instantly turn the battle around. Hellions won't be able to do complete run-bys and destroy my mineral line with ease due to the nerf, but i'll be curious on how to deal with mass thor, since neural parasite was my solution of dealing with mass thor. I do believe that there will be a different alternative on how to deal with thors soon enough, or Blizzard might not be done tweaking with the patch just yet.
That's what i think of it, it'll probably get buried in the 379/380 pages though 
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On September 11 2011 11:20 ElemUnit wrote:
but i'll be curious on how to deal with mass thor, since neural parasite was my solution of dealing with mass thor. I do believe that there will be a different alternative on how to deal with thors soon enough, or Blizzard might not be done tweaking with the patch just yet.
Lets hope so.
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On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf.
you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about?
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On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf.
I'm confused. To my knowledge, has been no nerfs to baneling drops in this patch. No nerfs to banelings. None to zerglings. And none to the snare portion of fungal growth. Additionally, there has been no nerf to overlords, or how they drop.
Why can't you drop banelings into a group of units anymore?
... or are you being sarcastic T_T.
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On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about?
pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point.
Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead.
On September 11 2011 11:00 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 10:52 emc wrote:On September 11 2011 09:27 Lomak wrote:On September 11 2011 09:19 Marooned wrote:
After testing it out it seems like a nice patch from a T point of view. The hellion nerf might be bad for tvp if you use hellions against zealots, but they still work great for lings,blings and harvesters, so no big deal for me.
But what I dont get is the APM "fix". Whats that for? APM was botched enough as it was compared to bw, now its pretty worthless. Its hardly a tool to check average actions per minute any longer. If they are gonna implement this change, then they might as well remove it completely, because its totally useless now. At the least, curiosity's sake? I know I'm curious how everyone's new APM will measure up, compared to the current standard. As well as what will be considered average when taking the spam out of the picture. they should have an option to see blizzard apm and true apm. Now how will we compare a bronzie to a GM if their APM is literally the same? No longer will the APM have a gap of 200+ but will only be about 5-10 APM apart. I sincerely hope blizzard allows both options because otherwise APM is a useless factor and will only make people think "it's ok to not play fast!" when that's not true at all! The more of a habit you get into playing fast the better you will be. i have a strong feeling that a lot of pros with high apm will indeed still have high apms even post patch.
if a player has high APM after the patch, it means they play fast. If a player with previously "high" APM has shitty APM after patch, it means they were performing over 9000 useless clicks to boost their APM, because APM is the SC player's e-peen.
Seriously, the way people rave on and on about APM disgusts me at the patheticness and illogicality of people.
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On September 11 2011 10:52 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 09:27 Lomak wrote:On September 11 2011 09:19 Marooned wrote:
After testing it out it seems like a nice patch from a T point of view. The hellion nerf might be bad for tvp if you use hellions against zealots, but they still work great for lings,blings and harvesters, so no big deal for me.
But what I dont get is the APM "fix". Whats that for? APM was botched enough as it was compared to bw, now its pretty worthless. Its hardly a tool to check average actions per minute any longer. If they are gonna implement this change, then they might as well remove it completely, because its totally useless now. At the least, curiosity's sake? I know I'm curious how everyone's new APM will measure up, compared to the current standard. As well as what will be considered average when taking the spam out of the picture. they should have an option to see blizzard apm and true apm. Now how will we compare a bronzie to a GM if their APM is literally the same? No longer will the APM have a gap of 200+ but will only be about 5-10 APM apart. I sincerely hope blizzard allows both options because otherwise APM is a useless factor and will only make people think "it's ok to not play fast!" when that's not true at all! The more of a habit you get into playing fast the better you will be.
Um, you could compare them by how well they play and the people they play against? Or maybe even the league that they are in! I don't understand why everyone cares so much, people make it sound like comparing APM is analogous to flopping your dicks out and comparing sizes.
I mean, a lot of bad players can artifically inflate their APM by spamming, so it's not like APM is a perfect measure of skill anyway.
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pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point.
Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead.
I don't see this in the patch notes. What are you talking about exactly?
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They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
Terran mech, or colossi deathball -- both of those don't need NP for the Zerg to counter and win rather effectively using other methods.
But Zealot/Archon is just too OP against Zerg without NP. NP punishes it hard, but it's also the only thing that really does work effectively.
The reason is air. You can go mutas or corruptors against colossi and counter effectively. Enough archons, on the other hand, will wreck a mass of air units - the archon is a much more fickle unit to counter. The only unit to effectively counter the Archon is the Broodlord at this point, and that's way too much tech required to counter a Gateway unit. You won't survive gateway pressure if you're trying to tech straight to broodlords. And banelings are horribly inefficient against the bulky archons, whether they're dropped or not.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch.
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On September 11 2011 11:34 Leporello wrote:
They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
Terran mech, or colossi deathball -- both of those don't need NP for the Zerg to counter and win rather effectively using other methods.
But Zealot/Archon is just too OP against Zerg without NP. NP punishes it hard, but it's also the only thing that really does work effectively.
The reason is air. You can go mutas or corruptors against colossi and counter effectively. Enough archons, on the other hand, will wreck a mass of air units - the archon is a much more fickle unit to counter. The only unit to effectively counter the Archon is the Broodlord at this point, and that's way too much tech required to counter a Gateway unit. You won't survive gateway pressure if you're trying to tech straight to broodlords. And banelings are horribly inefficient against the bulky archons, whether they're dropped or not.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch.
You can just make roaches or hydras to beat zealot archon, it's not a big deal. Corrupters are bad units and infestors were a nice alternative. Also, what "other methods" are we supposed to use against terran mech? Seems like the opposite of all your points is true.
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On September 11 2011 11:34 Leporello wrote:
They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch.
That's SO biased that i'm asking myself what to answer.
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On September 11 2011 11:00 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 10:52 emc wrote:On September 11 2011 09:27 Lomak wrote:On September 11 2011 09:19 Marooned wrote:
After testing it out it seems like a nice patch from a T point of view. The hellion nerf might be bad for tvp if you use hellions against zealots, but they still work great for lings,blings and harvesters, so no big deal for me.
But what I dont get is the APM "fix". Whats that for? APM was botched enough as it was compared to bw, now its pretty worthless. Its hardly a tool to check average actions per minute any longer. If they are gonna implement this change, then they might as well remove it completely, because its totally useless now. At the least, curiosity's sake? I know I'm curious how everyone's new APM will measure up, compared to the current standard. As well as what will be considered average when taking the spam out of the picture. they should have an option to see blizzard apm and true apm. Now how will we compare a bronzie to a GM if their APM is literally the same? No longer will the APM have a gap of 200+ but will only be about 5-10 APM apart. I sincerely hope blizzard allows both options because otherwise APM is a useless factor and will only make people think "it's ok to not play fast!" when that's not true at all! The more of a habit you get into playing fast the better you will be. i have a strong feeling that a lot of pros with high apm will indeed still have high apms even post patch.
I have a strong feeling this will not be the case... It will drop a lot.. Cycling through control groups for one does not count as an action. Alot of APM comes from this, and its not spam, its to keep control of macro. The only time this is considered spam is early game, but who cares about that anyways. Point is it's no longer a measurement of how many actions per minute you have, I dont know what to call it. Luckily you can use other programs to keep control of this for personal use (yes it is indeed interesting to see if you are getting faster or not)..
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If you get completely suprised by zealot/archon while you have a bunch of infestors out, stall with fungal growth while you pump out (literally) as many roaches as possible. Token roach warren and burrow research are both real good insurance versus this.
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On September 11 2011 11:38 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:34 Leporello wrote:
They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
Terran mech, or colossi deathball -- both of those don't need NP for the Zerg to counter and win rather effectively using other methods.
But Zealot/Archon is just too OP against Zerg without NP. NP punishes it hard, but it's also the only thing that really does work effectively.
The reason is air. You can go mutas or corruptors against colossi and counter effectively. Enough archons, on the other hand, will wreck a mass of air units - the archon is a much more fickle unit to counter. The only unit to effectively counter the Archon is the Broodlord at this point, and that's way too much tech required to counter a Gateway unit. You won't survive gateway pressure if you're trying to tech straight to broodlords. And banelings are horribly inefficient against the bulky archons, whether they're dropped or not.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch. You can just make roaches or hydras to beat zealot archon, it's not a big deal. Corrupters are bad units and infestors were a nice alternative. Also, what "other methods" are we supposed to use against terran mech? Seems like the opposite of all your points is true.
Corruptors deal with Colossi, which is the only reason I mentioned them at all, so I don't know why you bring them up and then talk about Terran.
A good Zealot/Archon build would never lose to low tech Zerg units. Roach/Hydra gets owned by Zealot/Archon, unless you kill the protoss before he gets enough Archons in which case, that's just bad play.
As for Terran mech, which you seem to suggest is what needs NP the most, I'd just say that there are tons of "other methods" which we've all seen plenty of. Mutas can do wonders at buying a Zerg enough time to get the Broodlords out.
The problem is Gateway units offer more maneuverability and more anti-air, and also the ability to push earlier on in the game - making it harder to expand or tech against (whereas Terran tech gives you a lot of free-time to expand and tech as long as you defend against hellions). Add Archons to the mix, and it becomes a nightmare to defend. If you haven't gone against a good Zealot/Archon build, it's hard to know just how effective it is. The fact that you think Roaches and Hydras beat a Gateway/Archon mix, "no big deal", tells me you're speaking from theory more than experience.
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On September 11 2011 11:29 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:24 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 11:11 Trealador wrote:On September 11 2011 10:57 Gatored wrote:
To all you people saying bane drops don't work. Tell that to Morrow. I'm pretty sure ZvP is his best matchup by far.
And to the ones saying that it's useless against protoss who micro. I heard fungal growth is good for holding units in place?
Please, please stop the retarded theorycrafting. Are you being intentionally dense or did you not read the thing that you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units anymore? Won't be useless, but is a pretty big nerf. you can no longer drop banelings in a group of units? wtf are you talking about? pretty sure hes meaning that units which drop from OLs wont Force all units away from the center of the drop point, and it will drop outside the ball at the closest point. Thus you can not explode an army from the center and surround/rape it. you dropping on the ball will have all your units drop all around it instead.
WAIT WHAT?
Where are you getting this from?
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On September 11 2011 11:40 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:34 Leporello wrote:
They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch. That's SO biased that i'm asking myself what to answer.
Removing "massive" from Archons is a very small change compared to what is happening to the Infestor. I actually think it's very reasonable suggestion.
I don't know what else you think is "biased", expect to say that I have an opinion on something. There are a lot of deadly protoss builds, the Zealot/Archon is one that I feel requires NP the most.
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On September 11 2011 11:59 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:40 atavus wrote:On September 11 2011 11:34 Leporello wrote:
They need to remove the massive trait from Archons if they put this build in.
I can see nerfing Neural Parasite, but to make it useless against Archons is basically ruining one of it's most essential uses and I think the match-up will be broken by Zealot-Archon builds. Remove the "massive" trait from Archons and I have no problem with this patch. That's SO biased that i'm asking myself what to answer. Removing "massive" from Archons is a very small change compared to what is happening to the Infestor. I actually think it's very reasonable suggestion. I don't know what else you think is "biased", expect to say that I have an opinion on something. There are a lot of deadly protoss builds, the Zealot/Archon is one that I feel requires NP the most.
Yeah, lets kill pvp again.
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EPT
