|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 07:26 Treble557 wrote:
Ok, so.. I tested out the PTR for a while, and here's what happened:
I only used NP on immortals and VR's in my matchups, no massives. I still stuck to builds that utilized infestors tho, be it mid or late game usage.
I'm honestly finding that against the current protoss meta game, the NP nerf isn't that terrible. We feel it ALOT harder against terran mech play then we do against protoss with their current play styles, which involve ALOT of aggression after the 8 minute mark, into giant battles that don't involve just trying to deathball +a move.
It's really impressive honestly how far toss has come as a race since moving from the deathaball, and I only hope it'll continue to KEEP moving forward and developing now that it can't fall back on one single strat to win every game. Was pretty sad seeing toss stagnate for nearly a year straight, while terran and zerg just kept changing and changing.
As for the balance of ZvP tho (or PvZ), I find that the NP change isn't all that bad one way or another.
If removing NP is simply to limit infestor utility, then I can understand why they're taking it away, eventho the infestor won't infest anything anymore, lololol. (just a bit silly, amarite?)
However, another issue is raised with these changes, imo. and that issue is fungal growth.
I feel as if it isn't in the best state still atm. Being a 100% snare AND doing damage isn't right for anyone.
I personally feel like fungal needs to change to be a more solid damage dealing/utlity move then what it is.
Perhaps raising it's damage and making it only slow by 70%? and not having it silence enemy units like it currently does.
Or making it slow by 70%, still silence, and keep it's old 35ish norm +45ish armored damage?
Because as is, we need that damage to help back us up against giant waves of units in the late game!
We can't use banes really because of micro most of the time against toss because of abilities like blink, and half their units they use being CRAZY in hp/armor!! Like when TONS of immortals and archons hit the field!! Which DOES and WILL happen, ALOT in zvp, lol.
So we use the fungals and IT's to help supliment the missing damage of our army in those times alot.
Taking down the damage of fungal tho isn't going to help, as fungal in general just needs to be a different kind of ability, but with the same relative guidlines as the current version.
tldr: Fungal needs to change, NP nerf is ok imo after testing it alot.
*edit*
buff hydras damit :<
Sir as a protoss player you give me some faith in mankind.
Thank you.
|
On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry
if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy.
|
does anyone know how long before this patch is put into the real games (not PTR)?
|
On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy.
Are you sure it isn't?
|
On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ?
I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable".
I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily.
|
On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy.
Suggestion of a protoss player :
If you put the baneling drops behind his army & your ground army cutting the other path : what are the chance of him running away unschated ?
|
On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily.
i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army.
|
Is it true that currently on the PTR Thor's can be NP'd again? Noticed a couple of people reporting it on BNet forums and various chats.
|
On September 11 2011 08:53 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily. i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army.
You should watch GSL, MLG, ESL and any other tournaments. Fungal as a root works wonders. Sentries are too slow to avoid. Once sentries are down. Enjoy the rape.
|
On September 11 2011 08:53 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily. i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army.
Then you have never seen a Z use fungal growth.
|
The arguments that Zerg can still deal with the Protoss deathball in other ways does not change the fact that not being able to neural a massive unit seems to defy the game design of the ability itself. What is the point of neural parasite? It's to take control or remove a powerful single unit from an engagement. What powerful unit is not massive? Tanks ... that have higher range and infestors are highest attack priority for them. Immortals ... you can argue that 4 infested terran is just as good. Anything other units you can think of?
Besides the toss death ball, can you imagine holding a terran mech army without being able to neural thors? It would be laughable.
|
On September 11 2011 08:53 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily. i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army.
Is your personal experience (viewer experience or playing experience) enough to come here and just make these statement and feed us with them like they are pure established truths ?
|
On September 11 2011 07:26 Treble557 wrote:
Ok, so.. I tested out the PTR for a while, and here's what happened:
...
tldr: Fungal needs to change, NP nerf is ok imo after testing it alot.
*edit*
buff hydras damit :<
you should not tell the truth! :D
But I have to admit it, if hydras were a useful addition to a zerg composition, instead of a "let's just rightclick this unit once, before we get back to killing the T1-T1.5 stuff"-unit, there would not be the need for infestors to have high dps. NP could stay the same and fungal could go back to it's original use: ensnare and soften units.
And just on another note: I don't get why blizzard keeps bad designed zerg spells in the game.
Corruption, Heal, Changeling are already close to useless (yeah Heal is a nice gimmick, but nothing you can build a strategy around)
NP that has ~1 useful target per matchup will be barely used, so why not simply remove it and add something else instead.
|
On September 11 2011 08:53 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. Suggestion of a protoss player : If you put the baneling drops behind his army & your groubd army cutting the other path : what are the chance of him running away ?
how do you get 10 overlords behind a protoss army without him finding out? a competent player would not let you surprise him with that.
i've seen bane rain work in very isolated incidents; overwhelmingly the protoss was either bad or not paying attention. otherwise it costs more money to kill the protoss death wad than the protoss spent to make it.
it's better against zealot and/or sentry heavy wads, works pretty well vs zealot/archon. but i'd really like to see people stop bringing up bane rain as a viable strategy against stalker-centric armies, because it's just not.
|
I'd really like to see people stop bringing up bane rain as a not viable strategy against stalker-centric armies, because it's just not.
|
On September 11 2011 08:57 ChanmanV wrote:
The arguments that Zerg can still deal with the Protoss deathball in other ways does not change the fact that not being able to neural a massive unit seems to defy the game design of the ability itself. What is the point of neural parasite? It's to take control or remove a powerful single unit from an engagement. What powerful unit is not massive? Tanks ... that have higher range and infestors are highest attack priority for them. Immortals ... you can argue that 4 infested terran is just as good. Anything other units you can think of?
Besides the toss death ball, can you imagine holding a terran mech army without being able to neural thors? It would be laughable.
Thors are immobile. Blizzard is forcing Zergs to try to expose that immobility rather than just massing up their own army. in a 1-ball vs 1-ball battle.
|
On September 11 2011 09:01 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:57 ChanmanV wrote:
The arguments that Zerg can still deal with the Protoss deathball in other ways does not change the fact that not being able to neural a massive unit seems to defy the game design of the ability itself. What is the point of neural parasite? It's to take control or remove a powerful single unit from an engagement. What powerful unit is not massive? Tanks ... that have higher range and infestors are highest attack priority for them. Immortals ... you can argue that 4 infested terran is just as good. Anything other units you can think of?
Besides the toss death ball, can you imagine holding a terran mech army without being able to neural thors? It would be laughable. Thors are immobile. Blizzard is forcing Zergs to try to expose that immobility rather than just massing up their own army. in a 1-ball vs 1-ball battle.
Blizzard is also denying zerg maps on which they can use mobility.
|
On September 11 2011 08:56 Zuxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:53 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily. i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army. Then you have never seen a Z use fungal growth.
theoretically it can work, but it's a ton of gas to invest in: a) enough infestors to keep the wad in place long enough for the lords to get deep enough in the wad for the bane rain to at least be cost-efficient, b) the banes themselves, c) lord speed and drop tech, d) enough roaches to meat shield for the fat vulnerable infestors and the incoming overlords.
it's such a micro-intensive tactic that relies so heavily on positioning, execution, and luck that in theory it should be a cost-effective way to take out a protoss death wad since with so many factors there's a good chance it'll fail. but as far as i've seen, AT BEST it breaks even, and at worst can actually cost you the game. remember, any stalkers that survive can blink forward and snipe infestors, so if (once again) the protoss is competent you won't retain any of it.
like i said, bane rain is good against light protoss units. but not stalkers.
|
once again zergs and protoss flame eachother while terran sits back and laugh while they enjoy their freewins at every tournament out there ^_^
|
On September 11 2011 08:54 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 08:53 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:52 Goliathsorrow wrote:On September 11 2011 08:47 Hollis wrote:On September 11 2011 08:19 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 08:18 Treble557 wrote:On September 11 2011 08:14 ReignFayth wrote:he wins all the time with it He just played a toss and... OH LOOK! THE PROTOSS JUST MOVED OUT THE WAY! bane drop was super INEFFECTIVE. <-- genuine surprise oh wait, baneling drops shud be 100% winrate for zerg my bad im sorry if a strategy's chance to work drops to 0% against a competent player, it is not a good strategy. When did the baneling drop suddently became a 0% winning strategy ? I don't get it... people here instead of argue, talk balance and stuff just ping pong some "facts" like; "this is op" "this is 0%" "this is not doable". I mean... it has to be trolling when u make such statements light-heartily. i have NEVER seen bane rain work against a protoss who micro'd his army. You should watch GSL, MLG, ESL and any other tournaments. Fungal as a root works wonders. Sentries are too slow to avoid. Once sentries are down. Enjoy the rape.
it works sometimes. but it fails to work just as often, and whenever it does work it feels like protoss could have handled it better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
