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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 07:29 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are. Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again?
So it's fine if 4k gas worth of brood / ultra gets sniped away by a handful of ghosts, but if a zerg can np your collosus for 10 seconds that's just too far.
The changes for this patch make absolutely no sense considering the state of the game. I'll be looking forward to the changes that actually make it live so we can see just how much of the game blizzard feels comfortable fucking with at once.
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On September 11 2011 06:56 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT!
I have to say, don't you think there's a bigger problem with zerg when you CANT beat a deathball ever UNLESS you do some off the wall gimmick like baneling bombs? This was a hugely intricate and esoteric solution to a major problem. IT is NOT a solution that came readily to hand, like countering zerg ground with colossus, for instance.
my point is, if you're advocating one thing that is a pure gimmick to replace a unit that is getting nerfed so it is no longer a pure gimmick, doesn't that mean there's an inherent flaw with zerg as a race to deal with deathball?
Force field breaking massive comes too lte in the zerg tech tree to deal with force field spam. Burrow is too unreliable for getting positioning with traps (like dustin browder was harping on and on about the ability of roach to burrow to get its perfect range off and surround, my ass DB), because 66% of the time they have an observer that just lets them get free kills on you. premoving forces above ground gets spotted, so he wont attack as long as you'r elike that, thus reducing your ability to trade armies at a reasonable rate, meaning he will turtle up, making him impervious until he decides to move out, because you know, warp gates are great for defensive advantage reinforcement and there's no reliable way to get a surround on protoss.
Was there ever baneling bombs in brood war? Nope. Because they didn't exist. Now that they exist, suddenly zerg is a race that completely relies on OLs to win? Does that sound right to you?
A+B =/= Z
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Since the NP change seems to be to stop infestor from countering archons so well, why not just remove the massive trait from colossi? Protoss has archons to break forcefields, so colossi dont need to be massive. Phoenix would be able to lift colossi, but maybe that will help stop PvP late game from being war of the worlds.
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On September 11 2011 07:38 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:56 tnud wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT! I have to say, don't you think there's a bigger problem with zerg when you CANT beat a deathball ever UNLESS you do some off the wall gimmick like baneling bombs? This was a hugely intricate and esoteric solution to a major problem. IT is NOT a solution that came readily to hand, like countering zerg ground with colossus, for instance. my point is, if you're advocating one thing that is a pure gimmick to replace a unit that is getting nerfed so it is no longer a pure gimmick, doesn't that mean there's an inherent flaw with zerg as a race to deal with deathball? Force field breaking massive comes too lte in the zerg tech tree to deal with force field spam. Burrow is too unreliable for getting positioning with traps (like dustin browder was harping on and on about the ability of roach to burrow to get its perfect range off and surround, my ass DB), because 66% of the time they have an observer that just lets them get free kills on you. premoving forces above ground gets spotted, so he wont attack as long as you'r elike that, thus reducing your ability to trade armies at a reasonable rate, meaning he will turtle up, making him impervious until he decides to move out, because you know, warp gates are great for defensive advantage reinforcement and there's no reliable way to get a surround on protoss. Was there ever baneling bombs in brood war? Nope. Because they didn't exist. Now that they exist, suddenly zerg is a race that completely relies on OLs to win? Does that sound right to you? A+B =/= Z
Baneling drop+roach+infestors is not gimmicky. It is actually super strong(to a point where liquid_tyler said it might be OP). First, many top zerg uses it in many ZvP: sen vs MC, morrow vs any toss. Second the buff to ultras were to help agaisnt late game stalker+colossus deathball army. Deathball was actually dealt with way before any zergs used NP at top lvl. It was the buff to infestor dps that made the standard old viod/colossus deathball no longer viable. NP was merely a tool to massive destroy mid game toss 2 base pushes(when toss has like 2-3 colossus). So basically right now it is either mass gateway mid game or nothing. NP is actually terrible against huge balls with 7-8 colossus. So if your problem was with the deathball you don't have to worry, but if your problem was agaisnt some 2 base colossus push then fine. However I think zerg has many tools against 2 base colossus timing(ret's fast 3 base into mass units work fine as well in his game verus liquid tyler in MLG).
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On September 11 2011 07:34 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:29 Zeroxk wrote:On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are. Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again? So it's fine if 4k gas worth of brood / ultra gets sniped away by a handful of ghosts, but if a zerg can np your collosus for 10 seconds that's just too far. The changes for this patch make absolutely no sense considering the state of the game. I'll be looking forward to the changes that actually make it live so we can see just how much of the game blizzard feels comfortable fucking with at once.
That's exaggerating far too much. If Ghosts can sit there and Chain-Snipe away at units slowly like that without the opposing team's units counter attacking, Terran already won the game before Ghosts were an issue.
I think Zergs don't understand how it is to Chain-Snipe, all APM is essentially committed to the ghosts. You can't drop a few snipes and go back to splitting/kiting your Marine-ball and microingTank shots. It requires 3 Snipes to kill Infestors (most players can't do it in 2 due to their regeneration), 6 for BL, 12 for Ultras. Ghosts may be effective against these units but they need to have a very Solid Buffer between them.
There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units.
I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability.
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On September 11 2011 07:34 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:29 Zeroxk wrote:On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are. Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again? So it's fine if 4k gas worth of brood / ultra gets sniped away by a handful of ghosts, but if a zerg can np your collosus for 10 seconds that's just too far. The changes for this patch make absolutely no sense considering the state of the game. I'll be looking forward to the changes that actually make it live so we can see just how much of the game blizzard feels comfortable fucking with at once.
Can't snipe massive units
Fair right? Can't feedback massive units either then maybe :D
No spells on massive
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Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period.
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On September 11 2011 07:38 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:56 tnud wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT! I have to say, don't you think there's a bigger problem with zerg when you CANT beat a deathball ever UNLESS you do some off the wall gimmick like baneling bombs? This was a hugely intricate and esoteric solution to a major problem. IT is NOT a solution that came readily to hand, like countering zerg ground with colossus, for instance. my point is, if you're advocating one thing that is a pure gimmick to replace a unit that is getting nerfed so it is no longer a pure gimmick, doesn't that mean there's an inherent flaw with zerg as a race to deal with deathball? Force field breaking massive comes too lte in the zerg tech tree to deal with force field spam. Burrow is too unreliable for getting positioning with traps (like dustin browder was harping on and on about the ability of roach to burrow to get its perfect range off and surround, my ass DB), because 66% of the time they have an observer that just lets them get free kills on you. premoving forces above ground gets spotted, so he wont attack as long as you'r elike that, thus reducing your ability to trade armies at a reasonable rate, meaning he will turtle up, making him impervious until he decides to move out, because you know, warp gates are great for defensive advantage reinforcement and there's no reliable way to get a surround on protoss. Was there ever baneling bombs in brood war? Nope. Because they didn't exist. Now that they exist, suddenly zerg is a race that completely relies on OLs to win? Does that sound right to you? A+B =/= Z
Yea, but there were Zealot bombs. In TvP that was standard practice in BW. Mech couldn't be fought head on, protoss had to rely on better econ, mobility (attacking from all sides), stasis, carriers, and zealot or dt bombs.
Whats interesting, is I still rarely see zerg go for surrounds or attack from 3 angles, I don't see enough burrow, back stabs,or nydus. A lot of zergs stay on roaches way to long, when they need to be mixing in ultras, or broodlord. Or even just getting some corrupters to pick at colossus. When I start seeing zergs engage the deathball from 3 sides with some corrupters, fungal, backstabbing whenever possible, using better composition and tech switches then I'll take their complaints more seriously.
The reality is mobility, and instant tech switches are core tactics to zerg and seem to be largely unused concepts. I do realize though a lot of maps suck and don't really let zerg use their mobility to greater effect, but overall it seems like zerg gets played as if it is protoss or terran. Just my 2 cents.
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On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period.
i heard about this spell called fungal which prevents your units from moving. what now?
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On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period.
The same could be said about using banelings against marines, it's a gimmick because marines can be split. But, looking at the gsl, I see plenty zergs using banelings effectively against marines!
And besides that, the scary part about baneling drops is less the part where the banelings drop, it's the part where you need to micro back to avoid it for a long time. You get stuck in a corner and/or lings and roaches easily catch up, which traps you, making forcefields ineffective. Then you die because you can't move anymore and the banelings hit your army, lings/roaches/infestors finish it.
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On September 11 2011 07:53 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:34 Lomak wrote:On September 11 2011 07:29 Zeroxk wrote:On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are. Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again? So it's fine if 4k gas worth of brood / ultra gets sniped away by a handful of ghosts, but if a zerg can np your collosus for 10 seconds that's just too far. The changes for this patch make absolutely no sense considering the state of the game. I'll be looking forward to the changes that actually make it live so we can see just how much of the game blizzard feels comfortable fucking with at once. That's exaggerating far too much. If Ghosts can sit there and Chain-Snipe away at units slowly like that without the opposing team's units counter attacking, Terran already won the game before Ghosts were an issue. I think Zergs don't understand how it is to Chain-Snipe, all APM is essentially committed to the ghosts. You can't drop a few snipes and go back to splitting/kiting your Marine-ball and microingTank shots. It requires 3 Snipes to kill Infestors (most players can't do it in 2 due to their regeneration), 6 for BL, 12 for Ultras. Ghosts may be effective against these units but they need to have a very Solid Buffer between them. There's something off with a Support unit like the Infestor when they can crowd control, prevent micro, wreck low-Tier units and provide a counter to Deathballs. Harass effectively with Infested Terrans, or actually straight out destroy Planetary/Nexus's with IT alone. And they're able to take over any of the opposing team's Units. I think Neural Parasite is just scratching at the surface of the unit's issue. The main problem is FG's rooting ability.
I completely agree with this. I don't think theses nerfs go far enough to balancing the Infestor.
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On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period.
Also the point of baneling drop is not only to hit. Look baneling drop based zerg play versus toss is very not Im gonna hit everything with baneling and win. If that happens zerg already won, the way baneling drop works is completely nullfiying forcefields. It is often done with about 20-30 banelings in Ovies, and as they fly toward your oppenent's army. You send your roaches. Now toss has to make a decesion if toss FF, they sentries stays behind adn get nuked. If they don't, the roach army will close the distance and kill everything.
Stalkers+immortal+archon army sounds like it will just melt to hydras+roach since raoch tanks and hydra just melts everything else. Remember it takes long for toss to switch into a immortal+archon army based army then it does for zergs to switch into hydra roach. If you scout toss on time, then just switch to something smarter. I also heard immortal+roaches are very good against stalker based army.
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On September 11 2011 08:03 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period. The same could be said about using banelings against marines, it's a gimmick because marines can be split. But, looking at the gsl, I see plenty zergs using banelings effectively against marines! And besides that, the scary part about baneling drops is less the part where the banelings drop, it's the part where you need to micro back to avoid it for a long time. You get stuck in a corner and/or lings and roaches easily catch up, which traps you, making forcefields ineffective. Then you die because you can't move anymore and the banelings hit your army, lings/roaches/infestors finish it.
Try bane dropping marines in tvz then and come back to tell me how it went plz.
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On September 11 2011 07:29 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are. Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again?
I don't even think it makes that much of a difference in practice, to be honest.
As for what I want, I want range 9 on EMP/Snipe, and a movement speed buff for HTs.
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On September 11 2011 08:03 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period. The same could be said about using banelings against marines, it's a gimmick because marines can be split. But, looking at the gsl, I see plenty zergs using banelings effectively against marines! And besides that, the scary part about baneling drops is less the part where the banelings drop, it's the part where you need to micro back to avoid it for a long time. You get stuck in a corner and/or lings and roaches easily catch up, which traps you, making forcefields ineffective. Then you die because you can't move anymore and the banelings hit your army, lings/roaches/infestors finish it.
Not to mention that, while you distract the P with the banedrops at the main army, you send one overlord with 2 banes to the mineral line and have a guaranteed eco advantage after the dust settles.
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On September 11 2011 07:55 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:38 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 06:56 tnud wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT! I have to say, don't you think there's a bigger problem with zerg when you CANT beat a deathball ever UNLESS you do some off the wall gimmick like baneling bombs? This was a hugely intricate and esoteric solution to a major problem. IT is NOT a solution that came readily to hand, like countering zerg ground with colossus, for instance. my point is, if you're advocating one thing that is a pure gimmick to replace a unit that is getting nerfed so it is no longer a pure gimmick, doesn't that mean there's an inherent flaw with zerg as a race to deal with deathball? Force field breaking massive comes too lte in the zerg tech tree to deal with force field spam. Burrow is too unreliable for getting positioning with traps (like dustin browder was harping on and on about the ability of roach to burrow to get its perfect range off and surround, my ass DB), because 66% of the time they have an observer that just lets them get free kills on you. premoving forces above ground gets spotted, so he wont attack as long as you'r elike that, thus reducing your ability to trade armies at a reasonable rate, meaning he will turtle up, making him impervious until he decides to move out, because you know, warp gates are great for defensive advantage reinforcement and there's no reliable way to get a surround on protoss. Was there ever baneling bombs in brood war? Nope. Because they didn't exist. Now that they exist, suddenly zerg is a race that completely relies on OLs to win? Does that sound right to you? A+B =/= Z Yea, but there were Zealot bombs. In TvP that was standard practice in BW. Mech couldn't be fought head on, protoss had to rely on better econ, mobility (attacking from all sides), stasis, carriers, and zealot or dt bombs. Whats interesting, is I still rarely see zerg go for surrounds or attack from 3 angles, I don't see enough burrow, back stabs,or nydus. A lot of zergs stay on roaches way to long, when they need to be mixing in ultras, or broodlord. Or even just getting some corrupters to pick at colossus. When I start seeing zergs engage the deathball from 3 sides with some corrupters, fungal, backstabbing whenever possible, using better composition and tech switches then I'll take their complaints more seriously. The reality is mobility, and instant tech switches are core tactics to zerg and seem to be largely unused concepts. I do realize though a lot of maps suck and don't really let zerg use their mobility to greater effect, but overall it seems like zerg gets played as if it is protoss or terran. Just my 2 cents.
Ill take your suggestion more seriously when protoss dont get eyes all over the map with invisible units and equal mobility of a zerg army. stalkers are faster than corruptor, did you know that?
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On September 11 2011 07:55 Treble557 wrote:
Bane drops is indeed a gimmick. All you have to do is micro your gateway units by unit splitting, and guess what. You win.
Why do you win? Because you can now go into the late game and get stalker/immortal/archon, and rape any unit comp involving ultras, or banes, or broods, or roaches.
Bane drops are not effective anymore. Period.
...
sure on paper protosses would all play fucking perfect
in a real game, not so much, also fungal prevents any kind of split
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he wins all the time with it
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On September 11 2011 08:08 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:55 Reborn8u wrote:On September 11 2011 07:38 Truedot wrote:On September 11 2011 06:56 tnud wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT! I have to say, don't you think there's a bigger problem with zerg when you CANT beat a deathball ever UNLESS you do some off the wall gimmick like baneling bombs? This was a hugely intricate and esoteric solution to a major problem. IT is NOT a solution that came readily to hand, like countering zerg ground with colossus, for instance. my point is, if you're advocating one thing that is a pure gimmick to replace a unit that is getting nerfed so it is no longer a pure gimmick, doesn't that mean there's an inherent flaw with zerg as a race to deal with deathball? Force field breaking massive comes too lte in the zerg tech tree to deal with force field spam. Burrow is too unreliable for getting positioning with traps (like dustin browder was harping on and on about the ability of roach to burrow to get its perfect range off and surround, my ass DB), because 66% of the time they have an observer that just lets them get free kills on you. premoving forces above ground gets spotted, so he wont attack as long as you'r elike that, thus reducing your ability to trade armies at a reasonable rate, meaning he will turtle up, making him impervious until he decides to move out, because you know, warp gates are great for defensive advantage reinforcement and there's no reliable way to get a surround on protoss. Was there ever baneling bombs in brood war? Nope. Because they didn't exist. Now that they exist, suddenly zerg is a race that completely relies on OLs to win? Does that sound right to you? A+B =/= Z Yea, but there were Zealot bombs. In TvP that was standard practice in BW. Mech couldn't be fought head on, protoss had to rely on better econ, mobility (attacking from all sides), stasis, carriers, and zealot or dt bombs. Whats interesting, is I still rarely see zerg go for surrounds or attack from 3 angles, I don't see enough burrow, back stabs,or nydus. A lot of zergs stay on roaches way to long, when they need to be mixing in ultras, or broodlord. Or even just getting some corrupters to pick at colossus. When I start seeing zergs engage the deathball from 3 sides with some corrupters, fungal, backstabbing whenever possible, using better composition and tech switches then I'll take their complaints more seriously. The reality is mobility, and instant tech switches are core tactics to zerg and seem to be largely unused concepts. I do realize though a lot of maps suck and don't really let zerg use their mobility to greater effect, but overall it seems like zerg gets played as if it is protoss or terran. Just my 2 cents. If they are mass producing OBs, then their main army will be a lot weaker as obs production takes out robo time. Ill take your suggestion more seriously when protoss dont get eyes all over the map with invisible units and equal mobility of a zerg army. stalkers are faster than corruptor, did you know that?
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EPT
