EPThttp://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/HappyFuntimeSunshineInc/ragestar.png
Just saw that and figured people might find it funny since it related to 1.4. :>
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 374
| Forum Index > Closed |
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Treble557
United States221 Posts
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/HappyFuntimeSunshineInc/ragestar.png Just saw that and figured people might find it funny since it related to 1.4. :> | ||
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Falcor
Canada894 Posts
On September 11 2011 03:25 xbankx wrote: You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base). it didnt take away any 2-3 colossus push. I had a few prot who did it but kept their stalkers in 2 or 3 groups. So 1 fungal wouldnt hold all of their stalkers and before 2 or 3 fungals got off at least 1 bunch of stalkers were in range of the infestors who nerual'd | ||
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sc2trainer
63 Posts
On September 11 2011 05:11 Treble557 wrote: slightly off topic here... http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/HappyFuntimeSunshineInc/ragestar.png Just saw that and figured people might find it funny since it related to 1.4. :> not rly funny imo pretty lame =/ | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
All these "I can't deal with deathball without neural!" cries just show how much of a crutch Infestors have become for Zerg. Nestea, Coca and Losira had 70%+ win rates in ZvP before the buff happened. Even nowadays they don't use them that often. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On September 11 2011 05:55 Toadvine wrote: Reading the last few pages of this thread made me realize that the Infestor buff was damaging to the Zerg understanding of ZvP. Before it happened, we had so many cool and effective styles developed by Zerg players, but the moment the majority figured out that they can just mass Infestors no matter what, and do fine, it was all forgotten. All these "I can't deal with deathball without neural!" cries just show how much of a crutch Infestors have become for Zerg. Nestea, Coca and Losira had 70%+ win rates in ZvP before the buff happened. Even nowadays they don't use them that often. The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. | ||
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sc2trainer
63 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:04 pwadoc wrote: The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. yeah things were pretty bad for zerg, they got roflstomped by toss deathballs | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:04 pwadoc wrote: The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:04 pwadoc wrote: The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. Winrates on International TLPD were close to 50% at the time the buff went live: http://i.imgur.com/Jvlvy.png. Patch 1.3.0 went live on March 22nd. As you can see on the graph, Zerg winrate in ZvP was on an incline for at least a month at the time. Really, as much as Zergs like to exaggerate the difficulties they were having in ZvP, their winrate never went below 45% in actual tournaments. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:13 iky43210 wrote: that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. Deathball? No you can't deal with it without Infestor Could you deal with it using the pre 1.3-patch Infestor? Probably. Without NP? In some cases, but not in others. On September 11 2011 06:15 Toadvine wrote:Really, as much as Zergs like to exaggerate the difficulties they were having in ZvP, their winrate never went below 45% in actual tournaments. And how were Zergs winning back then? With silly Roach all-ins, Hydra doom drops, all-in Baneling drops, that kind of crap. No Zerg felt confident playing a straight up macro game in ZvP, the matchup wasn't in a good state. Lots of Zergs would all-in every time against FFE because they didn't feel like they had a chance. | ||
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Balfazar
Australia483 Posts
P and Z are only fighting over second place anyway, Ghost play along with all the other flexibility of Terran will keep them in first place as always. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:20 Balfazar wrote: I find it amusing that Zerg players were claiming that they gained the ascendancy ZvP through better play rather than a buff, but now that an Infestor nerf is threatened they claim that an Infestor nerf will ruin their chances in the matchup. P and Z are only fighting over second place anyway, Ghost play along with all the other flexibility of Terran will keep them in first place as always. The thing that's being nerfed isn't the thing that was previously buffed, is that so hard to understand? You can look at Zerg play and see how much it has evolved while Protoss play stagnated. How is Zergs learning to deal with Stargate openings in any way related to the Infestor buff? It isn't, it's Zergs having adapted to Protoss play because they had so much trouble with it. There's so much new Zerg play that isn't directly related to the Infestor, and much of the Infestor play doesn't directly depend on the buff. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:13 iky43210 wrote: that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. You might want to investigate the difference between a statement and an argument before hitting 'post' again. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:30 hugman wrote: The thing that's being nerfed isn't the thing that was previously buffed, is that so hard to understand? You can look at Zerg play and see how much it has evolved while Protoss play stagnated. How is Zergs learning to deal with Stargate openings in any way related to the Infestor buff? It isn't, it's Zergs having adapted to Protoss play because they had so much trouble with it. There's so much new Zerg play that isn't directly related to the Infestor, and much of the Infestor play doesn't directly depend on the buff. I find it so arrogant of zergs to claim that they've been adapting and improving and that they're so much smarter than protosses in general, it's so fucking wrong | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:42 hugman wrote: You don't think Zerg play has changed more than Protoss play in PvZ over the last 5-6 months? some zergs have changed a lot, some haven't same goes for protoss not sure what you expect protoss to do differently, we've tried going air, going templars going colossus, going a mix of air + templars, mix of colossus + templars, mix of colossus + air, warp prism harass while doing all of this, timing attacks with different unit composition wtf do you expect protoss to come up with? | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:45 ReignFayth wrote: some zergs have changed a lot, some haven't same goes for protoss not sure what you expect protoss to do differently, we've tried going air, going templars going colossus, going a mix of air + templars, mix of colossus + templars, mix of colossus + air, warp prism harass while doing all of this, timing attacks with different unit composition wtf do you expect protoss to come up with? As well as different starting build orders, like 1 gate expansion into void-rays or dts, we've even seen a bit of a resurgence of 2 gate zealot pressure into forge expansion. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:13 iky43210 wrote: that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. No no, the only way to beat a 200/200 protoss is with NP and fungal abuse. Not even Broodlords really deal with a true protoss deathball, as that gives toss complete map control Zerg could remax three time in a row and maybe kill a couple stalkers. Does that mean Zerg can't win? No, it just means Zerg must be over aggressive and kill protoss before they max out. Game got to the 15 minute mark? GG. It isn't even like Infestors were unbeatable. HTs are very much a counter to infestors... does it require you being faster than your opponent? Yeah, but everything else equal the faster opponent generally wins anyway. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:16 hugman wrote: Deathball? No you can't deal with it without Infestor Could you deal with it using the pre 1.3-patch Infestor? Probably. Without NP? In some cases, but not in others. And how were Zergs winning back then? With silly Roach all-ins, Hydra doom drops, all-in Baneling drops, that kind of crap. No Zerg felt confident playing a straight up macro game in ZvP, the matchup wasn't in a good state. Lots of Zergs would all-in every time against FFE because they didn't feel like they had a chance. They were winning the same way they win now, by taking a fast third base and being able to defend it against 2 base all-ins and tech plays from the Protoss. Baneling drops on the army and Ling-heavy styles with double upgrades were developed around that time too. The fact that Zergs also figured out they had a variety of powerful all-ins at their disposal also helped a fair bit, I imagine. We even saw Zergs winning with pure Roach/Hydra by doing drops and mult-pronged attacks, and even basetrades. Like, seriously, what is a straight-up macro game? Coca vs Huk g2 at MLG Raleigh, Coca is maxed on Roach/Hydra/Corrupter at the 13:30 mark, and destroys HuK as he attempts to secure his third. Is that straight-up macro enough for you? On September 11 2011 06:30 hugman wrote: The thing that's being nerfed isn't the thing that was previously buffed, is that so hard to understand? You can look at Zerg play and see how much it has evolved while Protoss play stagnated. How is Zergs learning to deal with Stargate openings in any way related to the Infestor buff? It isn't, it's Zergs having adapted to Protoss play because they had so much trouble with it. There's so much new Zerg play that isn't directly related to the Infestor, and much of the Infestor play doesn't directly depend on the buff. By "learning to deal with Stargate openings", you mean "Spore Crawler root time decreased to 6 seconds", right? For the record, I think the neural nerf is stupid. I also think that the really good Code S Zergs would continue to dominate Protosses even if Infestors were removed from the game. | ||
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tnud
Sweden2233 Posts
On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote: you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Yes! There, listen to this man! NP is not the end of zerg OR the infestor. It's still GREAT! | ||
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