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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 06:48 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:13 iky43210 wrote:On September 11 2011 06:04 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 05:55 Toadvine wrote:
Reading the last few pages of this thread made me realize that the Infestor buff was damaging to the Zerg understanding of ZvP. Before it happened, we had so many cool and effective styles developed by Zerg players, but the moment the majority figured out that they can just mass Infestors no matter what, and do fine, it was all forgotten.
All these "I can't deal with deathball without neural!" cries just show how much of a crutch Infestors have become for Zerg. Nestea, Coca and Losira had 70%+ win rates in ZvP before the buff happened. Even nowadays they don't use them that often. The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. No no, the only way to beat a 200/200 protoss is with NP and fungal abuse. Not even Broodlords really deal with a true protoss deathball, as that gives toss complete map control Zerg could remax three time in a row and maybe kill a couple stalkers. Does that mean Zerg can't win? No, it just means Zerg must be over aggressive and kill protoss before they max out. Game got to the 15 minute mark? GG. It isn't even like Infestors were unbeatable. HTs are very much a counter to infestors... does it require you being faster than your opponent? Yeah, but everything else equal the faster opponent generally wins anyway.
That's not true, you can beat a Deathball if you have hivetech. What you can't do is, beating a Deathball out of an even position in the mid or latemidgame.
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By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are.
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On September 11 2011 06:45 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:42 hugman wrote:
You don't think Zerg play has changed more than Protoss play in PvZ over the last 5-6 months? some zergs have changed a lot, some haven't same goes for protoss not sure what you expect protoss to do differently, we've tried going air, going templars going colossus, going a mix of air + templars, mix of colossus + templars, mix of colossus + air, warp prism harass while doing all of this, timing attacks with different unit composition wtf do you expect protoss to come up with?
Well, the things Protoss players suggested when Zergs were struggling weren't that great ("use Nydus more!" xD) so I'm not going to pretend to know the answer, especially since you're much better than I am. I did however catch an interesting game the other night, game 3 of Dimaga vs Alicia in the #2 IPL season 3 qualifiers (the VOD's not up yet unfortunately, they said it's on the way).
Alicia did a weird FFE into +1 air before WG, three Stargate opening (Dimaga scouted 2-stargate) that killed the 3rd but Dimaga got Infestors out, survived and it turned into a pretty normal game after that. That's obviously not something you can make a standard opening (well what do I know), but the cool thing was that he had a lot (10+) of leftover Phoenixes and despite Dimaga going mass Infestor Alicia was able to harass with them very effectively, something you'd probably say shouldn't work on paper. With excellent feedback usage he dragged the game out long enough for Dimaga to transition to mass Brood Lords, but Alicia had pretty much gone mass Blink Stalkers at that point and was sniping Dimagas hatcheries all over the map, abusing the immobility of the BLs. He forced Dimaga to attack, but Alicia had added 1-2 more starports which allowed him to insta produce tons of VRs. They went down to the Infestors, but not before they killed most of the BLs.
It was a cool game, I think there are some things you can learn from it.
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On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine
Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks.
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Why is there so much discussion about how this is bad for zvp? I don't give a shit about NP zvp to be honest. It was not a good spell to count on vs colossi and it was too good vs archons. Archon, zealot should have been the counter to the infestor/ling style but it didn't work because of NP.
The bigger problem is against terran mech. It makes us worse against terran when they are already winning.
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On September 11 2011 07:01 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:45 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 06:42 hugman wrote:
You don't think Zerg play has changed more than Protoss play in PvZ over the last 5-6 months? some zergs have changed a lot, some haven't same goes for protoss not sure what you expect protoss to do differently, we've tried going air, going templars going colossus, going a mix of air + templars, mix of colossus + templars, mix of colossus + air, warp prism harass while doing all of this, timing attacks with different unit composition wtf do you expect protoss to come up with? Well, the things Protoss players suggested when Zergs were struggling weren't that great ("use Nydus more!" xD) so I'm not going to pretend to know the answer, especially since you're much better than I am. I did however catch an interesting game the other night, game 3 of Dimaga vs Alicia in the #2 IPL season 3 qualifiers (the VOD's not up yet unfortunately, they said it's on the way). Alicia did a weird FFE into +1 air before WG, three Stargate opening (Dimaga scouted 2-stargate) that killed the 3rd but Dimaga got Infestors out, survived and it turned into a pretty normal game after that. That's obviously not something you can make a standard opening (well what do I know), but the cool thing was that he had a lot (10+) of leftover Phoenixes and despite Dimaga going mass Infestor Alicia was able to harass with them very effectively, something you'd probably say shouldn't work on paper. With excellent feedback usage he dragged the game out long enough for Dimaga to transition to mass Brood Lords, but Alicia had pretty much gone mass Blink Stalkers at that point and was sniping Dimagas hatcheries all over the map, abusing the immobility of the BLs. He forced Dimaga to attack, but Alicia had added 1-2 more starports which allowed him to insta produce tons of VRs. They went down to the Infestors, but not before they killed most of the BLs. It was a cool game, I think there are some things you can learn from it.
Yeah, throw the zerg off with stupid gimmicky shit and hope they completely mishandle the situation and make every wrong decision possible.
Great state we're in.
On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks.
Don't you think it's bad for the game that you can mass a single unit and it's never wrong?
Don't you think it's wrong that a unit is so versatile that it counters everything?
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On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks.
No, it is a thin line. If you have to many possibilities things either have to have the same counter (so why even put another way of losing to X into the game) or it becomes a coinflip, because you can't be prepared for everything...
Yet I don't think that this is the case for zerg midgame right now... (the options are pretty much mass roach as allin, baneling drops & infestors as solid play... hydras in case P goes stargate)
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On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks.
did you see broodwar having lots of options?
yet the games were amazing to witness
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On September 11 2011 07:05 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. Don't you think it's bad for the game that you can mass a single unit and it's never wrong? Don't you think it's wrong that a unit is so versatile that it counters everything?
Isn't that beside the point? Massing infestors for neural is a bad idea, massing for fungal isn't. Fungal needs to change obviously but neural doesn't.
I can't help but feel like you aren't thinking about neural as a spell but infestors as a whole unit..
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On September 11 2011 06:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 06:48 iCanada wrote:On September 11 2011 06:13 iky43210 wrote:On September 11 2011 06:04 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 05:55 Toadvine wrote:
Reading the last few pages of this thread made me realize that the Infestor buff was damaging to the Zerg understanding of ZvP. Before it happened, we had so many cool and effective styles developed by Zerg players, but the moment the majority figured out that they can just mass Infestors no matter what, and do fine, it was all forgotten.
All these "I can't deal with deathball without neural!" cries just show how much of a crutch Infestors have become for Zerg. Nestea, Coca and Losira had 70%+ win rates in ZvP before the buff happened. Even nowadays they don't use them that often. The ZvP win rates were bad enough that blizzard felt they had to deliver a strong buff to the infestor, so obviously everything wasn't as great as you'd like everyone to believe. that was back then. Zerg has evolved and many can deal with protoss death ball without the use of infestors. No no, the only way to beat a 200/200 protoss is with NP and fungal abuse. Not even Broodlords really deal with a true protoss deathball, as that gives toss complete map control Zerg could remax three time in a row and maybe kill a couple stalkers. Does that mean Zerg can't win? No, it just means Zerg must be over aggressive and kill protoss before they max out. Game got to the 15 minute mark? GG. It isn't even like Infestors were unbeatable. HTs are very much a counter to infestors... does it require you being faster than your opponent? Yeah, but everything else equal the faster opponent generally wins anyway. That's not true, you can beat a Deathball if you have hivetech. What you can't do is, beating a Deathball out of an even position in the mid or latemidgame.
That's not true, if anything, Zerg wins more in midgame. In midgame, Zerg is maxed and Protoss is stuck being in around 130-140 supply and the Zerg usually just wins from there.
Even without hive tech, I seen ling/bling/infestors/corrupter work wonders vs the maxed deathball.
You can't beat a maxed Protoss army with just Roach/Hydra/Corrupter unless they mess up if that's what you're talking about, but that's just because that army costs way more.
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On September 11 2011 07:10 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. did you see broodwar having lots of options? yet the games were amazing to witness
I didn't follow BW so I can't really answer that.
Also you didn't really answer the question, do you really want a game to be dumbed down in response to balance issues instead of giving other races the ability to interact with what is seen as imba in a more meaningful way?
Assuming neural was an issue don't you think it would be better to give other races a better response to it than to nerf it almost out of the game?
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On September 11 2011 07:14 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:10 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. did you see broodwar having lots of options? yet the games were amazing to witness I didn't follow BW so I can't really answer that. Also you didn't really answer the question, do you really want a game to be dumbed down in response to balance issues instead of giving other races the ability to interact with what is seen as imba in a more meaningful way? Assuming neural was an issue don't you think it would be better to give other races a better response to it than to nerf it almost out of the game?
I dunno maybe they could give a buff to T/P to deal with it but I find it fine that they make infestor a bit less versatile, it was too much of an answer to everything, now they'll have to diversify they army composition a bit more, just like protoss has been doing for a while
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On September 11 2011 07:05 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:01 hugman wrote:On September 11 2011 06:45 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 06:42 hugman wrote:
You don't think Zerg play has changed more than Protoss play in PvZ over the last 5-6 months? some zergs have changed a lot, some haven't same goes for protoss not sure what you expect protoss to do differently, we've tried going air, going templars going colossus, going a mix of air + templars, mix of colossus + templars, mix of colossus + air, warp prism harass while doing all of this, timing attacks with different unit composition wtf do you expect protoss to come up with? Well, the things Protoss players suggested when Zergs were struggling weren't that great ("use Nydus more!" xD) so I'm not going to pretend to know the answer, especially since you're much better than I am. I did however catch an interesting game the other night, game 3 of Dimaga vs Alicia in the #2 IPL season 3 qualifiers (the VOD's not up yet unfortunately, they said it's on the way). Alicia did a weird FFE into +1 air before WG, three Stargate opening (Dimaga scouted 2-stargate) that killed the 3rd but Dimaga got Infestors out, survived and it turned into a pretty normal game after that. That's obviously not something you can make a standard opening (well what do I know), but the cool thing was that he had a lot (10+) of leftover Phoenixes and despite Dimaga going mass Infestor Alicia was able to harass with them very effectively, something you'd probably say shouldn't work on paper. With excellent feedback usage he dragged the game out long enough for Dimaga to transition to mass Brood Lords, but Alicia had pretty much gone mass Blink Stalkers at that point and was sniping Dimagas hatcheries all over the map, abusing the immobility of the BLs. He forced Dimaga to attack, but Alicia had added 1-2 more starports which allowed him to insta produce tons of VRs. They went down to the Infestors, but not before they killed most of the BLs. It was a cool game, I think there are some things you can learn from it. Yeah, throw the zerg off with stupid gimmicky shit and hope they completely mishandle the situation and make every wrong decision possible.
I didn't suggest the opening. Besides, watch the game, it's not like Dimaga is some scrub, he took games off Alicia.
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On September 11 2011 07:18 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:14 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 07:10 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. did you see broodwar having lots of options? yet the games were amazing to witness I didn't follow BW so I can't really answer that. Also you didn't really answer the question, do you really want a game to be dumbed down in response to balance issues instead of giving other races the ability to interact with what is seen as imba in a more meaningful way? Assuming neural was an issue don't you think it would be better to give other races a better response to it than to nerf it almost out of the game? I dunno maybe they could give a buff to T/P to deal with it but I find it fine that they make infestor a bit less versatile, it was too much of an answer to everything, now they'll have to diversify they army composition a bit more, just like protoss has been doing for a while
Obviously mass infestor was an issue, mass caster shouldn't be viable ever (ghost snipe I'm looking at you) but was neural really the issue?
I think that the issue all comes back to fungal, of course neural is powerful but the issue is that zerg is simultaneously able to have such a massive mana pool with 30 infestors and spend it without incredibly reduced efficiency. Between infested, fungal, and neural there is too much that infestors can do but instead of taking away options I would rather see a reduced benefit for each infestor as the pack grows.
To do this they could obviously take away the damage of fungal and make it a snare, this is too big of a change though.
They could also reduce the range of infested terran so it would require significantly more actions and times to let loose a massive pack of them.
I just feel like the issue with infestor is not neural and this change makes the only part of the unit that actually interacts well with the game as a whole is being nerfed HARD.
Long story short infestors need steadily reducing marginal utility as you get more of them, the neural change isn't really the best way to do that. Ghosts EMP has a max amount of damage it can do, HTs aren't guaranteed to do damage and storms don't stack, infestors just keep raking in the damage the more you have.
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On September 11 2011 07:11 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:05 Elefanto wrote:On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. Don't you think it's bad for the game that you can mass a single unit and it's never wrong? Don't you think it's wrong that a unit is so versatile that it counters everything? Isn't that beside the point? Massing infestors for neural is a bad idea, massing for fungal isn't. Fungal needs to change obviously but neural doesn't. I can't help but feel like you aren't thinking about neural as a spell but infestors as a whole unit..
Of course i don't think about Neural as a lone spell, i think of it in the context of the Infestor, and of what the Infestor is capable. Maybe on its on Neural Parasite isn't too strong, but in conjunction with it's other spells they made the Infestor an universal weapon that reduced options from the game.
It was an answer to everything, it didn't only bolster your army strength, it made your army universal against everything. You didn't have to be afraid of sudden tech switches, you didn't have to pay attention to your opponents army composition. The infestor countered everything on its own.
That's why they're nerfing NP.
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you can't take super gimmicky builds into account to make it a standard
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I really really want to post an angry post. But I think there are 375 pages of angry posts already.
In general I hope they are implementing this nerf to infestors because they are going to have more awesome units in HoTS to make it for it!
#zergfighting <3<3
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Ok, so.. I tested out the PTR for a while, and here's what happened:
I only used NP on immortals and VR's in my matchups, no massives. I still stuck to builds that utilized infestors tho, be it mid or late game usage.
I'm honestly finding that against the current protoss meta game, the NP nerf isn't that terrible. We feel it ALOT harder against terran mech play then we do against protoss with their current play styles, which involve ALOT of aggression after the 8 minute mark, into giant battles that don't involve just trying to deathball +a move.
It's really impressive honestly how far toss has come as a race since moving from the deathaball, and I only hope it'll continue to KEEP moving forward and developing now that it can't fall back on one single strat to win every game. Was pretty sad seeing toss stagnate for nearly a year straight, while terran and zerg just kept changing and changing.
As for the balance of ZvP tho (or PvZ), I find that the NP change isn't all that bad one way or another.
If removing NP is simply to limit infestor utility, then I can understand why they're taking it away, eventho the infestor won't infest anything anymore, lololol. (just a bit silly, amarite?)
However, another issue is raised with these changes, imo. and that issue is fungal growth.
I feel as if it isn't in the best state still atm. Being a 100% snare AND doing damage isn't right for anyone.
I personally feel like fungal needs to change to be a more solid damage dealing/utlity move then what it is.
Perhaps raising it's damage and making it only slow by 70%? and not having it silence enemy units like it currently does.
Or making it slow by 70%, still silence, and keep it's old 35ish norm +45ish armored damage?
Because as is, we need that damage to help back us up against giant waves of units in the late game!
We can't use banes really because of micro most of the time against toss because of abilities like blink, and half their units they use being CRAZY in hp/armor!! Like when TONS of immortals and archons hit the field!! Which DOES and WILL happen, ALOT in zvp, lol.
So we use the fungals and IT's to help supliment the missing damage of our army in those times alot.
Taking down the damage of fungal tho isn't going to help, as fungal in general just needs to be a different kind of ability, but with the same relative guidlines as the current version.
tldr: Fungal needs to change, NP nerf is ok imo after testing it alot.
*edit*
buff hydras damit :<
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On September 11 2011 07:14 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 07:10 ReignFayth wrote:On September 11 2011 07:04 Moa wrote:On September 11 2011 06:52 ReignFayth wrote:
you don't need NP to beat a deathball, fungal + baneling drops do just fine Don't you think having fewer options is bad for the game. Makes it less dynamic if every situation doesn't have different solutions that have different benefits and drawbacks. did you see broodwar having lots of options? yet the games were amazing to witness I didn't follow BW so I can't really answer that. Also you didn't really answer the question, do you really want a game to be dumbed down in response to balance issues instead of giving other races the ability to interact with what is seen as imba in a more meaningful way? Assuming neural was an issue don't you think it would be better to give other races a better response to it than to nerf it almost out of the game?
Yet there is no more intereaction. On paper, there is technically only 2 unit zerg need to make against any composition, zergling+infestors. How is that remotely fun? The huge problem for infestors were they were a counter to every single unit in the game. The problem is fewer options. We all seen how toss was boring when there were few option: colossus+stalkers every game because colossus were good against every style back in the days. Even toss players said despite the fact they needed colossus, it was a shit unit since there was no point to go anything since it was so good. Infestors as pretty much reached that point right now.
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On September 11 2011 07:00 Toadvine wrote:
By the way, I find it absolutely hilarious that Infestors are getting nerfed, but Ghosts are left the way they are.
Ghosts already got a nerf last patch, or do you want them to remove 100 shields and ALL energy again?
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EPT
