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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated.
This sounds way different than the tune from zergs just before the patch note update...
Zergs all over TL were saying non-sense like "zergs are just figuring things out, protoss just needs to adapt" "Zergs figured out how to play now its protoss' turn".
Interesting to see that blizzard feels they overbuffed the infestor by quite a bit... I'll be curious to see how much people actually "learned to play" as they claim and how many of them were delusional from the buffs.
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On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated.
You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base).
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On September 11 2011 02:50 Big J wrote:
I don't get the NP change, because what else do I want to target than the big fat units - which happen to be massive. Yeah targeting Immortals, siege tanks and casters can be good, yet I don't think NP is more than a useful extra option in these situations.
Hopefully blizzard is thinking further with this, then what they show right now and plan on other big things:
-) (finally) nerfing colossi
-) implementing hive play as useful tool, rather than as "I can finally end the game after getting ahead for 20min" - tech
-) more infestor changes (like making fungal available while NPing; NP while burrowed; longlasting NP...)
And overlords nuking under them, for free. And hydras can fly too.
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On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated.
Did they nerf fungal to pre 1.3 patch, if not why QQing ?
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On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated.
That's not true at all. Zergs have learned over time how good fungal + baneling bombs are against toss balls. That is the real reason why toss has stopped using them. Banelings destroy all the sentries and fungal holds the group in place for the zerg to surround. Neural is another way to stop colossi, but is a less effective alternative, since the remaining colossi can still snipe them down. However some people like to use the neural option because it doesn't require nearly as much APM.
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On September 11 2011 03:26 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. Did they nerf fungal to pre 1.3 patch, if not why QQing ?
Pre-1.3 had an 8 second hold time, which was lovely. Now it's 4 seconds. I wish it could be a happy medium, like six.
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On September 11 2011 03:26 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. Did they nerf fungal to pre 1.3 patch, if not why QQing ?
Because in the intervening patch, they nerf infestor health and speed. Now infestors are slower, die faster, and have a substantially weaker neural parasite. All in return for a fungal growth that's slightly stronger, but has half the duration of the original.
On September 11 2011 03:30 Fig wrote:
That's not true at all. Zergs have learned over time how good fungal + baneling bombs are against toss balls. That is the real reason why toss has stopped using them. Banelings destroy all the sentries and fungal holds the group in place for the zerg to surround. Neural is another way to stop colossi, but is a less effective alternative, since the remaining colossi can still snipe them down. However some people like to use the neural option because it doesn't require nearly as much APM.
Baneling bombing is incredibly difficult to execute properly. It's very situational and is not in any way a reliable counter to a protoss death ball. Overlords are slower than the units they are chasing, so you have to rely on fungal to hold the targets in place. Fungal only lasts 4 seconds, so you have to try to chain fungals while dropping. Usually the result is blink stalkers kiting and popping overlords while the rest of the army runs. Roach corrupter is going to be the response to the death ball as it was before the infestor buff, it will be afterwards, and everyone is already aware of fragile this composition is.
Once the protoss gets 5-6 colossi backed by a sufficient number of stalkers, your only real hope is getting broodlords out in time, but toss gets colossi well before a zerg can get brood lords on the field.
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I actually like the neural change. For no other reason than it removes the mothership's biggest weakness against zerg, so they're actually potentially viable now.
Although I'm a little concerned about how it'll affect colossi. But people will figure something out. The answer might involve ultralisks. Those were always great against armored deathballs in the past, and now with the building time buff they might be out in time.
And to people who think Blizzard "overbuffed" the infestor, I don't necessarily think that's the line of thought they're taking here. It's more like over time, whether it has to do with the buff or not, they just felt the infestor was too strong and they're taking care of it.
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On September 11 2011 03:26 xN.07)MaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 02:50 Big J wrote:
I don't get the NP change, because what else do I want to target than the big fat units - which happen to be massive. Yeah targeting Immortals, siege tanks and casters can be good, yet I don't think NP is more than a useful extra option in these situations.
Hopefully blizzard is thinking further with this, then what they show right now and plan on other big things:
-) (finally) nerfing colossi
-) implementing hive play as useful tool, rather than as "I can finally end the game after getting ahead for 20min" - tech
-) more infestor changes (like making fungal available while NPing; NP while burrowed; longlasting NP...) And overlords nuking under them, for free. And hydras can fly too.
True and don't forget ling that can charge. And broodlords that shoot banelings. All of the above change must be implemented or zerg will be fundamentally weakened.
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On September 11 2011 03:25 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base).
Well, fungals are rarely used to kill things off by themselves. Usually they contribute dps and immobility to the battle. The dps reduction is real (not saying it is significant, but it is there)
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On September 11 2011 03:25 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base).
It's still a nerf in ZvP, you don't kill an entiere protoss army with Fungals only, please think about it again.
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On September 11 2011 04:02 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:25 xbankx wrote:On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base). It's still a nerf in ZvP, you don't kill an entiere protoss army with Fungals only, please think about it again.
yeah you forgot the roaches and broodlords bud
comeon you whiners its not that big of a deal most competatnt protossw ould just target down the infestors neuraling with 9 range colossus anyway
just makes it so the infestor does nto counter -every- unit in the game
shoudlr eally be whining about terran dominance right now if youre going to whine
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On September 11 2011 04:02 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:25 xbankx wrote:On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. You know the infestor nerf only really affect terrans? According to incontrol, it still takes the same amount of fungals to kill toss units as before. Ie IF prepatch it took 4 fungals to kill a stalker, then post patch it still only takes 4. The only thing changed was NP which made since since it took out all mid game colossus based pushes(basically any push with 2-3 colossus off 2 base). It's still a nerf in ZvP, you don't kill an entiere protoss army with Fungals only, please think about it again.
But you shouldn't be able to kill an entire protoss army with just one type of unit, that is why blizzard is patching it. They want unit diversity.
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On September 11 2011 03:43 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:26 atavus wrote:On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. Did they nerf fungal to pre 1.3 patch, if not why QQing ? Because in the intervening patch, they nerf infestor health and speed. Now infestors are slower, die faster, and have a substantially weaker neural parasite. All in return for a fungal growth that's slightly stronger, but has half the duration of the original. Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:30 Fig wrote:
That's not true at all. Zergs have learned over time how good fungal + baneling bombs are against toss balls. That is the real reason why toss has stopped using them. Banelings destroy all the sentries and fungal holds the group in place for the zerg to surround. Neural is another way to stop colossi, but is a less effective alternative, since the remaining colossi can still snipe them down. However some people like to use the neural option because it doesn't require nearly as much APM. Baneling bombing is incredibly difficult to execute properly. It's very situational and is not in any way a reliable counter to a protoss death ball. Overlords are slower than the units they are chasing, so you have to rely on fungal to hold the targets in place. Fungal only lasts 4 seconds, so you have to try to chain fungals while dropping. Usually the result is blink stalkers kiting and popping overlords while the rest of the army runs. Roach corrupter is going to be the response to the death ball as it was before the infestor buff, it will be afterwards, and everyone is already aware of fragile this composition is. Once the protoss gets 5-6 colossi backed by a sufficient number of stalkers, your only real hope is getting broodlords out in time, but toss gets colossi well before a zerg can get brood lords on the field.
Yes getting a few colossi does happen faster than a zerg getting broodlords. But if you let a toss get up all the way up to 6 colossi without either
doing harass to slow them down
or
making corruptors
or
teching quickly yourself
then you just made a big mistake and you deserve to lose.
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I'm really not sure why zergs are concerned about ZvP, it's really not gonna change much at the top level, protoss is gonna be slightly better so it's not gonna even up...
problem seems to lie with ZvT more than anything
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On September 11 2011 04:13 ReignFayth wrote:
I'm really not sure why zergs are concerned about ZvP, it's really not gonna change much at the top level, protoss is gonna be slightly better so it's not gonna even up...
problem seems to lie with ZvT more than anything
ZvT is being addressed in this patch. There's a BFH nerf and a rax build time increase. I don't think it goes quite far enough, but it's a step in the right direction. The situation in ZvP is about to very rapidly go downhill.
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On September 11 2011 04:21 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 04:13 ReignFayth wrote:
I'm really not sure why zergs are concerned about ZvP, it's really not gonna change much at the top level, protoss is gonna be slightly better so it's not gonna even up...
problem seems to lie with ZvT more than anything ZvT is being addressed in this patch. There's a BFH nerf and a rax build time increase. I don't think it goes quite far enough, but it's a step in the right direction. The situation in ZvP is about to very rapidly go downhill.
I dunno, most good zergs told me it wouldn't change much at all
really the only zergs who gets completely fucked over by this and have to rethink their entire gameplay are destiny and catz
It's not even gonna change much for IdrA even if he whines about it
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On September 11 2011 04:10 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 03:43 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:26 atavus wrote:On September 11 2011 03:17 pwadoc wrote:On September 11 2011 03:13 `chain wrote:
This patch is absolutely golden. I love all the changes, and I don't see anything wrong with them! Why are all of you QQing? I even agree with the blink nerf. Prior to the infestor buff, ZvP was basically un-winnable once the deathball got rolling. This patch basically reverts ZvP back to that state. It's pretty clear why zerg players are frustrated. Did they nerf fungal to pre 1.3 patch, if not why QQing ? Because in the intervening patch, they nerf infestor health and speed. Now infestors are slower, die faster, and have a substantially weaker neural parasite. All in return for a fungal growth that's slightly stronger, but has half the duration of the original. On September 11 2011 03:30 Fig wrote:
That's not true at all. Zergs have learned over time how good fungal + baneling bombs are against toss balls. That is the real reason why toss has stopped using them. Banelings destroy all the sentries and fungal holds the group in place for the zerg to surround. Neural is another way to stop colossi, but is a less effective alternative, since the remaining colossi can still snipe them down. However some people like to use the neural option because it doesn't require nearly as much APM. Baneling bombing is incredibly difficult to execute properly. It's very situational and is not in any way a reliable counter to a protoss death ball. Overlords are slower than the units they are chasing, so you have to rely on fungal to hold the targets in place. Fungal only lasts 4 seconds, so you have to try to chain fungals while dropping. Usually the result is blink stalkers kiting and popping overlords while the rest of the army runs. Roach corrupter is going to be the response to the death ball as it was before the infestor buff, it will be afterwards, and everyone is already aware of fragile this composition is. Once the protoss gets 5-6 colossi backed by a sufficient number of stalkers, your only real hope is getting broodlords out in time, but toss gets colossi well before a zerg can get brood lords on the field. Yes getting a few colossi does happen faster than a zerg getting broodlords. But if you let a toss get up all the way up to 6 colossi without either doing harass to slow them down or making corruptors or teching quickly yourself then you just made a big mistake and you deserve to lose.
teching quickly is acoinflip, because if protoss moves out at a random timing you have nothing, and corruptors are simply put bad vs huge numbers of colossi, because they only kill the colossi, while you lose your complete ground vs them and after that it is gatewayball vs streaming reinforcements... guess who wins that...
I guess banelingbombs will be the name of the game now... no more diversity where you could do banelings or infestor...
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nural change is so big thats crazy
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Seems to me this whole issue of the Infestor fundamentally is the fact that Blizzard didn't provide enough unit options for the Zerg race to begin with. Hopefully that'll change in a few months with HotS, but I have to say in the mean time I'm glad I'm not a Zerg player relying on this game for a living.
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EPT
