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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 11:04 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:59 Dingobloo wrote:Hm I honestly feel the NP change is necessary in order to bring the infestor into non-god-unit status, it needs an obvious hole and being good against high value units and lots of low-value units just made it too good, that's just part of the infestors shifting role from something with a good single target spell and a low-damage aoe to something with an average single target spell and a high damage aoe. The drop change on the other hand seems absolutely brutal and unnecessary as I feel like it was one of the best synergies in the game, and with the removal of NP makes going up against collosus/stalker even more difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErkvTOqloM It's not average single target spell, its an awful single target spell. Its literally almost useless in most situations, and the only situations its useful in, its not worth it to get it. The infestor is one of few zerg units that rewards you for good micro, without it you are back to relying on your opponents poor micro to do good in engagements. Also, how are people saying fungal is bs because it restricts movement, when protoss has forcefields.
People are saying Fungal is BS because it does not restrict movement. It outright completely stops it. Protoss Forcefields impede movement and can be broken by Massives. Not to mention the fact that Fungal deals damage.
You can't compare Fungal with Forcefield. If anything, you have to look at it as both Forcefield and a Storm cast together in one neat package.
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its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts
Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines.
I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game.
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On September 12 2011 11:04 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:59 Dingobloo wrote:Hm I honestly feel the NP change is necessary in order to bring the infestor into non-god-unit status, it needs an obvious hole and being good against high value units and lots of low-value units just made it too good, that's just part of the infestors shifting role from something with a good single target spell and a low-damage aoe to something with an average single target spell and a high damage aoe. The drop change on the other hand seems absolutely brutal and unnecessary as I feel like it was one of the best synergies in the game, and with the removal of NP makes going up against collosus/stalker even more difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErkvTOqloM It's not average single target spell, its an awful single target spell. Its literally almost useless in most situations, and the only situations its useful in, its not worth it to get it. The infestor is one of few zerg units that rewards you for good micro, without it you are back to relying on your opponents poor micro to do good in engagements. Also, how are people saying fungal is bs because it restricts movement, when protoss has forcefields.
Because forcefields don't also storm, there are massive units that can break forcefields, forcefields don't effect flying units.
It's an awful single target spell for the cost (the research time and research cost) but once you have the spell it's about on line with feedback in terms of utility, a decent anti-caster ability that can also give you control of your opponents tanks and immortals, I'll take that.
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On September 12 2011 11:01 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:53 Falcor wrote:
ghost counters every unit too(except tvt) so?. Terrans are to stuck on marine tank tho to actually relize it. And when a terran uses alot of ghosts they rape the opponent. And there is a time when i wouldnt make them. When they get ghosts or ht/mass lot. Just because you now have to react to what a zerg is doing everyone is freaking out. And dont say well zerg is suppose to be the reactive race so its not allowed. When lurkers were made terran had to react and build the right units or they lost.
The problem is before no1 was saying oh np is imba(after they had a duration put on) change it. Before people thought fungal and infested terran were imba. Blizzard could have nerfed that without changing a key element to zergs gameplay.
Massing infestors is bad but limiting the zergs few options we have into mass any other unit is fine? Its even worse when they said corruptors are a bad/boring unit but yet theyre like fuck you, you have to build it anyways. Since all toss is going to do is go back to 3 base turtle collo stalker death ball again.
Alright let's look at TvZ. How does Ghost counter every unit? They're able to EMP and remove energy. Not Kill an infestor with that ability. They remove energy. They lack an AOE damage spell that kills unlike Infestors. You can't kill with EMP in TvZ. And they can't deal with Mass Low-Tech units. They have no AOE damage ability in that match up. Let's say Brood/Ultras are out, Ghosts can Snipe right? People seem to fail to recognize how micro-intensive chain-sniping is. I posted this before, and I guess I have to again. If Ghosts can sit there and Chain-Snipe away at units slowly like that without the opposing team's units counter attacking, Terran already won the game before Ghosts were an issue. I think Zergs don't understand how it is to Chain-Snipe, all APM is essentially committed to the Ghosts. You can't drop a few snipes and go back to splitting/kiting your Marine-ball and microingTank shots. It requires 3 Snipes to kill Infestors (most players can't do it in 2 due to their regeneration), 6 for BL, 12 for Ultras. Ghosts may be effective against these units but they need to have a very Solid Buffer between them.
bold text = ignore the rest of waht you typed and just read the bold
yeah ghosts need a buffer but also need to be close to the front to snipe bls
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On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:Besides the whole Infestor NP Infested Terran discussion. The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) Thus fungal growth does damage almost like a full storm (without factoring anything else) Now add to that, that Storm is avoidable (nobody eats full storms) While Fungal Growth always is full damage. It simply breaks down, to Zerg having way to much DPS in mid game, which is caused by the decrease of effect time from 8s to 4s. (before that it area dps value was obviously half as much, that is why it wasn't as much of a problem) The solution is simple, fungal growth needs to be nerfed in either: a) Raw DPS (alot more than currently planned, it still does way to much damage considering the snare ability and chain fungals) b) Remove/Weaken the snare ability c) Reduce Area of Effect of FG Now if you know that the Design of Protoss is based around microing and reducing the amount of damage received to become cost effective (which is obviously bypassed by the 9 Range of Infestors) Why Protoss has such a hard time is painfully obvious. (each fungal is like eating almost a full storm damage wise+ you can't micro which is essential for Protoss to even hope to have even trades)
How about you go into unit tester and try this out instead of doing fancy math(I like math don't worry) and test it for real. This doesn't incorporate unit collosion size, which makes a whole world of a difference. Fungal only hits about 8 more zerglings or something like that and only 2-3 more roachs. For the total damage storm still hits more.
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Tbh, I'm pretty surprised that Blizzard decided to change neural parasite before infested terrans - especially when a lot of zerg players have already voiced that they would be okay with a small nerf to IT's. Even though the role of these two spells are very different, it still weakens the infestors ability to be able to do 'everything.'
Personally I'd much rather see templars getting moderate buffs (better movement speed please =/ with either a slightly higher DPS storm or a reworked khydarian amulet) instead of too many nerfs to the infestor though (especially when ghosts don't get changed, which I'm quite puzzled about).
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On September 12 2011 11:10 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:04 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 10:59 Dingobloo wrote:Hm I honestly feel the NP change is necessary in order to bring the infestor into non-god-unit status, it needs an obvious hole and being good against high value units and lots of low-value units just made it too good, that's just part of the infestors shifting role from something with a good single target spell and a low-damage aoe to something with an average single target spell and a high damage aoe. The drop change on the other hand seems absolutely brutal and unnecessary as I feel like it was one of the best synergies in the game, and with the removal of NP makes going up against collosus/stalker even more difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErkvTOqloM It's not average single target spell, its an awful single target spell. Its literally almost useless in most situations, and the only situations its useful in, its not worth it to get it. The infestor is one of few zerg units that rewards you for good micro, without it you are back to relying on your opponents poor micro to do good in engagements. Also, how are people saying fungal is bs because it restricts movement, when protoss has forcefields. Because forcefields don't also storm, there are massive units that can break forcefields, forcefields don't effect flying units. It's an awful single target spell for the cost (the research time and research cost) but once you have the spell it's about on line with feedback in terms of utility, a decent anti-caster ability that can also give you control of your opponents tanks and immortals, I'll take that.
The only massive unit zerg has is the ultralisk, and while ff may not do damage, it prevents you from running away from damage, as well as splitting your army in half, and making it impossible to go down your ramp. Also, NP is not an anti caster spell. zerg has no anti caster spell.
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On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa.
But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size.
Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit.
Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size.
So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal.
I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell.
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On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game.
That's blatantly wrong.
Watch Stephano ZvT for instance. He opens with Infestor and murders everyone, even Korean Terrans. Dimaga does it alot as well.
It's absolutely viable and extremely strong.
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On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game.
Please do not put stalkers and marines in the same sentence. Stalkers have the worst DPS to cost ratio in the game. Marines have the best. Therefore, if you want dps, which you usually do, then stalkers are not nearly as versatile as marines. It's just that stalkers are all protoss have. The fact that they are the protoss equivalent of marines just goes to show why protoss is doing so terribly right now.
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On September 12 2011 11:17 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game. Please do not put stalkers and marines in the same sentence. Stalkers have the worst DPS to cost ratio in the game. Marines have the best. Therefore, if you want dps, which you usually do, then stalkers are not nearly as versatile as marines. It's just that stalkers are all protoss have. The fact that they are the protoss equivalent of marines just goes to show why protoss is doing so terribly right now.
They're meant to be different for a reason. Each races playstyles are different and their units reflect a different central overall characteristic of the race.
Terran - Ranged/DPS
Zerg - Swarm Race
Protoss - Tanky Units
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The most obnoxious part about all of this is that no one ever complained about infestors when fungal rooted for 8 seconds and did less damage. Now infestors move slower, die faster, and root for less time. The only thing that has changed from 6 months ago is that fungal does more DPS. The only real change on the protoss side is that 4 gates are significantly less powerful, and archons are somewhat stronger.
Unsurprisingly, the discussion has traveled far beyond the borders of the absurd. If protoss incorporate templar into their compostions, and don't clump them up so that they can all be fungaled, you can largely mitigate infestor use. Zergs aren't rolling 200/200 protoss deathballs with only lings, roaches and infestors. The changes in this patch, minus the NP nerf, are more than sufficient to address the balance complaints of protoss players. The immortal range alone is going to mean a huge reduction in effectiveness of roach compositions.
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On September 12 2011 11:21 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:17 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game. Please do not put stalkers and marines in the same sentence. Stalkers have the worst DPS to cost ratio in the game. Marines have the best. Therefore, if you want dps, which you usually do, then stalkers are not nearly as versatile as marines. It's just that stalkers are all protoss have. The fact that they are the protoss equivalent of marines just goes to show why protoss is doing so terribly right now. They're meant to be different for a reason. Each races playstyles are different and their units reflect a different central overall characteristic of the race. Terran - Ranged/DPS Zerg - Swarm Race Protoss - Tanky Units
They should be a lot tankier then, considering they cost a pretty penny and roaches outdo them with tankiness and cost about half as much.
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On September 12 2011 11:29 pwadoc wrote:
The most obnoxious part about all of this is that no one ever complained about infestors when fungal rooted for 8 seconds and did less damage. Now infestors move slower, die faster, and root for less time. The only thing that has changed from 6 months ago is that fungal does more DPS. The only real change on the protoss side is that 4 gates are significantly less powerful, and archons are somewhat stronger.
Unsurprisingly, the discussion has traveled far beyond the borders of the absurd. If protoss incorporate templar into their compostions, and don't clump them up so that they can all be fungaled, you can largely mitigate infestor use. Zergs aren't rolling 200/200 protoss deathballs with only lings, roaches and infestors. The changes in this patch, minus the NP nerf, are more than sufficient to address the balance complaints of protoss players. The immortal range alone is going to mean a huge reduction in effectiveness of roach compositions.
That's the main issue, the DPS increased. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can. That's why people dislike it.
On September 12 2011 11:31 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:21 Eps wrote:On September 12 2011 11:17 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game. Please do not put stalkers and marines in the same sentence. Stalkers have the worst DPS to cost ratio in the game. Marines have the best. Therefore, if you want dps, which you usually do, then stalkers are not nearly as versatile as marines. It's just that stalkers are all protoss have. The fact that they are the protoss equivalent of marines just goes to show why protoss is doing so terribly right now. They're meant to be different for a reason. Each races playstyles are different and their units reflect a different central overall characteristic of the race. Terran - Ranged/DPS Zerg - Swarm Race Protoss - Tanky Units They should be a lot tankier then, considering they cost a pretty penny and roaches outdo them with tankiness and cost about half as much.
Yes, they cost more but they're not tanki-ier. Stalkers have more overall HP than Roaches. They can shoot air and they can blink. They also have a much higher range. Different units serve different purposes, you can't compare units of different races simply like that.
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On September 12 2011 11:16 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:07 Belial88 wrote:its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op
yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Zerg needs infestors because they don't have a versatile unit like stalkers or marines. I don't know what level of play you're at, but infestors are horrible in ZvT as an opening and in end-game ghosts just completely nullify infestors, not to mention siege tanks own them as well. FG is not OP at all, it's like storm, you're marines are supposed to get chewed up by it. FG is not good at all against siege tanks or really anything terran has except maybe vikings, in which case siege tank/viking is much more efficient than BL/infestor. It only works when Zerg has already won and has 2+ base advantage and Terran is being BM and won't leave the game. That's blatantly wrong. Watch Stephano ZvT for instance. He opens with Infestor and murders everyone, even Korean Terrans. Dimaga does it alot as well. It's absolutely viable and extremely strong.
There's a difference between a game like Destiny vs Bomber, and Bomber clearly never having seen it before, and games like HopeTorture/BlackCitadel opening battlecruisers against infestors because he knows how bad it is in ZvT as an opener.
Dimaga does not do very well against Terrans except on macro maps like Crevasse or who leave him alone to get hive tech, in which case, Ultralisks are amazing in ZvT regardless of infestor support or ling/bane support.
Cant' say I'm familiar with Stephano, but if you can recommend a VOD, I'll watch and give my thought on it. Siege tanks rape Zerg, and going infestors instead of spire is like making more banelings to deal with siege tanks. That's not to say you can't beat most Masters and below Terran who get caught out of position.
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On September 12 2011 11:04 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Actually, Marines and Infestors are basically the same thing. Marines are pretty much good all of the time no matter what you're up against. "oh but Marines have soft counters such as infestors and high templar!" . . . . oh you mean like how Infestors are soft countered by Ghosts and High Templar? yeah
...... Are you in bronze league?
Marines are HARD COUNTERED by colossus, high templar, banelings, infesters, tanks, hellions.
Infesters are soft countered with extreme micro with ghosts and high templar, while hard-countering pretty much every unit in the game except for ghosts and high templar.
Do you see the difference?
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On September 12 2011 11:35 Eps wrote:
That's the main issue, the DPS increased. You couldn't Chain Fungal units to death in the past because of how low DPS it was, and now you can. That's why people dislike it.
Really? Because I see a lot of posts complaining about neural parasite, infested terrans, and the rooting effect of fungal growth, the former two of which have no changed since beta, and the latter which has actually been nerfed. Fungal growth DPS is now being nerfed. So I guess there's nothing to complain about, and we can have our NP back?
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First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
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On September 12 2011 10:59 sh4w wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts I have to agree here. I don't understand why you would want to play by just making the same unit over and over vs everything. Protoss was like that for a while with the colossus and it was dreadful.
Thats the point. do you think zerg players want to make the same units every game? fuck no. its awful. Yet I try to play infestor-free in every single game on ladder. Know where I'm stuck? Diamond. I go to a tournament, and beat the shit out of top 8 masters from NA ladder and even a GM or 2. I go back to ladder, stuck at diamond, because the w/l rate is too even for me while NOT using infestors.
Infestors are made to counter everything because of what Dustin Browder, in all his infinite wisdom, tried to do to the game to make it an e-sport. he tried to make it like football, with as he puts it "degrees of success" and "losing by a little or a lot" and "these "skill factors" are why the poor noobs hate me".
For instance. stim is supposed to, in his words, change the relationship of marines to banelings, even though they both move equal speed before stim. suddenly marines don't get countered by banelings anymore, they can kill banelings in huge numbers, because of stim. Then zerg gets baneling speed. On creep, they can catch and deal with marines. Off creep, the relationship is supposedly changed by speed, but marines still move as fast, and this time there's splash damage units like tanks to take out the banelings. so in a vacuum, the relationships changed, but then throw additional units into the mix, and you can see that although the relationship changes back and then (sort of, remember marine damage still goes through the roof) back again with zerg getting bane speed, at that time in the game this relationship stops mattering because of other units like siege tanks. Even a small number of hellions can kill off banelings, because banelings have such low health.
This is just a small part of the puzzle. What does it mean? It means that DB and Kim david made the game to go back and forth to make it more "exciting for esports". In reality, these back and forth researches become maginfied or nullified by increasing time length into the game.
Like for instance, marines kiting banelings through siege tanks and then turning around to finish the remaining ones off with stim. DB and KD both have made it a point that marine spread is supposed to be one of those "degree of success skill things" that helps a person win. but then why is stim necessary? Shouldn't marine spread and tanks be enough?
This is why zerg has infestor. It is supposed to stop marines from running, or neural parasite tanks (yes, even the helptips while loading state this), and in all other words be the utility caster for the zerg. Yet it costs so much investment just to make it that strong. Think about how difficult it is to research and get raven up to Utility status. Only with zerg you actually NEED the unit, its not optional. so its something you need to research and get into. Because there's no better option. Zerg counters are all soft or medium counters to T or P, due to low range, and/or low health, and inferior damage buffs.
There's only 3 zerg units that get bonus damage to anything, did you know that? baneling, ultralisk, corruptor. Im ignoring infestor because thats not an energyless direct attack.
look at terran.
marauder, hellion, tank, thor, viking. the ones that don't get big DPS instead. like thor ground or marine or banshee.
look at protoss. Stalker, immortal, void ray, phoenix, archon (retarded huge damage vs bio!! bad for zerg, good for terran mech), and the ones tht dont get big DPS instead. colossus with its 15 (21) x2 damage.
so we have 3 bonuses for clear counter for zerg.
5 for terran.
5 for protoss.
and then terran and protoss also get big DPS units if those units dont have a bonus damage vs something. Terran, fast + stim = very fast, banshee ridiculous DPS, limited to ground only. Protoss gets colossus, which is limited to ground only, but has better DPS than banshee, and then is also AoE?
What does zerg get? a mass of low range units who's attack modifiers go up by +1 with upgrades.
Even ultralisk sucks if its not hitting armor. +1 attack vs light/bio/psi units on top of 15 per upgrade? thats worse than colossus and it attacks slower (yes it does, colossus attacks twice per its timing, and ultra only attacks once, so ultra is a slower attacker).
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Im pretty sure its just the fact that infestors can be used in every situation to some degree. We all knew a nerf was coming to them. The question was which spell it would be. ! unit filling every role is just boring for watching. Having a game come down to JUST the reflexes and timing of the players is terribly boring to watch. Think about CoD and any other FPS at MLG events. they're boring to watch because there's no strategy to them (at least not very much). I say this from a spectators view, i'd rather watch awesome metagame shifts and mind games then "welp he got his FG/NP off before the other guy got his EMP/Feed back looks like thats the game decider...AGAIN" While i think that would be neat every now and then, it can't be the norm.
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EPT
