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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:04 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 11:43 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot. Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep? Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair. explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas? Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool. Don't just shut down an idea when it has been seen to work in PvZ. Compare their late game usage to ghosts. Ghosts are mixed in and amassed in order to provide huge utility packed into 2 supply, for those late game maxed army confrontations. People have just started using ghosts in late game v Z, and now are finding them very strong. Similarly, hardly anyone uses late game queens, but I have seen them be very impressive in late game ZvP, so why not in ZvT? It doesn't matter that they are slow (off creep) since you have a bunch so you can spread creep quickly, and you are only following broodlords. Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage. 2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage 1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens! I'd rather not be completely dependent on creep instead of it being a very nice bonus as is.
Remember this is super late game, so you should have creep everywhere by then.
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On September 12 2011 11:52 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:39 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 10:59 sh4w wrote:On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts I have to agree here. I don't understand why you would want to play by just making the same unit over and over vs everything. Protoss was like that for a while with the colossus and it was dreadful. Thats the point. do you think zerg players want to make the same units every game? fuck no. its awful. Yet I try to play infestor-free in every single game on ladder. Know where I'm stuck? Diamond. I go to a tournament, and beat the shit out of top 8 masters from NA ladder and even a GM or 2. I go back to ladder, stuck at diamond, because the w/l rate is too even for me while NOT using infestors. Infestors are made to counter everything because of what Dustin Browder, in all his infinite wisdom, tried to do to the game to make it an e-sport. he tried to make it like football, with as he puts it "degrees of success" and "losing by a little or a lot" and "these "skill factors" are why the poor noobs hate me". For instance. stim is supposed to, in his words, change the relationship of marines to banelings, even though they both move equal speed before stim. suddenly marines don't get countered by banelings anymore, they can kill banelings in huge numbers, because of stim. Then zerg gets baneling speed. On creep, they can catch and deal with marines. Off creep, the relationship is supposedly changed by speed, but marines still move as fast, and this time there's splash damage units like tanks to take out the banelings. so in a vacuum, the relationships changed, but then throw additional units into the mix, and you can see that although the relationship changes back and then (sort of, remember marine damage still goes through the roof) back again with zerg getting bane speed, at that time in the game this relationship stops mattering because of other units like siege tanks. Even a small number of hellions can kill off banelings, because banelings have such low health. This is just a small part of the puzzle. What does it mean? It means that DB and Kim david made the game to go back and forth to make it more "exciting for esports". In reality, these back and forth researches become maginfied or nullified by increasing time length into the game. Like for instance, marines kiting banelings through siege tanks and then turning around to finish the remaining ones off with stim. DB and KD both have made it a point that marine spread is supposed to be one of those "degree of success skill things" that helps a person win. but then why is stim necessary? Shouldn't marine spread and tanks be enough? This is why zerg has infestor. It is supposed to stop marines from running, or neural parasite tanks (yes, even the helptips while loading state this), and in all other words be the utility caster for the zerg. Yet it costs so much investment just to make it that strong. Think about how difficult it is to research and get raven up to Utility status. Only with zerg you actually NEED the unit, its not optional. so its something you need to research and get into. Because there's no better option. Zerg counters are all soft or medium counters to T or P, due to low range, and/or low health, and inferior damage buffs. There's only 3 zerg units that get bonus damage to anything, did you know that? baneling, ultralisk, corruptor. Im ignoring infestor because thats not an energyless direct attack. look at terran. marauder, hellion, tank, thor, viking. the ones that don't get big DPS instead. like thor ground or marine or banshee. look at protoss. Stalker, immortal, void ray, phoenix, archon (retarded huge damage vs bio!! bad for zerg, good for terran mech), and the ones tht dont get big DPS instead. colossus with its 15 (21) x2 damage. so we have 3 bonuses for clear counter for zerg. 5 for terran. 5 for protoss. and then terran and protoss also get big DPS units if those units dont have a bonus damage vs something. Terran, fast + stim = very fast, banshee ridiculous DPS, limited to ground only. Protoss gets colossus, which is limited to ground only, but has better DPS than banshee, and then is also AoE? What does zerg get? a mass of low range units who's attack modifiers go up by +1 with upgrades. Even ultralisk sucks if its not hitting armor. +1 attack vs light/bio/psi units on top of 15 per upgrade? thats worse than colossus and it attacks slower (yes it does, colossus attacks twice per its timing, and ultra only attacks once, so ultra is a slower attacker). I agree that SC2's dynamic of oneupmanship places the infestor in the power hierarchy that it is for a good reason, but atleast for PvZ, it becomes a center-piece of a very difficult to counter army-and I think it actually decreases excitement unless you like seeing base races. We'll see how the new changes relieves this "end of the line' sequence of one-upman ship in the next patch.
well thanks and thats my point. Its boring not just to watch it, as Im sure it is, but its boring to PLAY it as well. But theres no better option.
I played infestor minimal/absent in a tourney and wiped some master/gms. I play the same on ladder and cant get out of diamond. How does this work? likely because I just got damn lucky in the tourney and/or they played expecting the "metagame' of festorling mass, and tried to counter it, while I blind countered that due to going without infestors.
Honestly, they're a micro nightmare, and a bother. they're slow, unlike the rest of the zerg race (even the queen was super fast in brood war, AND it could insta-kill a unit or provide a very wide range -50% speed AoE on the enemy's army that lasted longer than fungal), you need your entire army to COMMIT so they dont get sniped and you can use them, you have to be microuing them as well as microing your army because zerg NEEDS positioning, and theres no zerg unit comp Infestors cant do better for less supply cost.
its too efficient and too good not to do, but thats directly relational to the rest of zerg being too inefficient. If protoss complain about gateway units being inefficient, pure roach vs pure stalker, sure roaches are more efficient, but all zerg units are supply inefficient (barring ling), economy inefficient, and/OR larva inefficient, and especially vs a non-retard unit comp from T or P, also supply for supply inefficient AND cost/reward inefficient.
Thats why zergs need to always be 1 base ahead, which is why zergs are passively unless they have a stronger economy and more unit production. And thats why its a base race, all the P or T has to do is keep turtling up bases and eventually win with a mech or mix deathball, depending on race.
the only legitimate counter zerg has to that is festor, because with such a cost inefficient army, ultras and brood lords are artifically way far away in the game progression. and if you buy infestors, that puts you back a way lot more. so you're eternally stuck on infestors because they're the best option in midgame, and they hinder your ability to get a reasonable force of T3 units. because by this time harass options and heavy expo obliteratying strategies from T and P come on the table. Meanwhile zerg has to commit a sizeable force to do the same damage, AND defense structures and units just come kill them anyway.
I was on PTR not too long ago, and wiped out a protoss after a 2 gate rush by splitting lings into his early natural and his main, was able to get them past sentries, and killed off a lot of probes. The next gimmick I brought was perma burrowed moving roaches, even though he had cannons, getting them past all his FFs and units into his main, leading him from his natural and killing his nat nexus with mass lings, even though he came back and tried to FF to keep it alive. As Im now on the gold expo, and he feels to weak to push out (hes a protoss player who hasn't lost a single attack unit so far beyond the 2 gate rush), I can now tech to ultralisks while denying his third expo attempt. All of these fights exhibit one thing:
I had almost NO equal trade with the enemy. Lost a ton of lings and about 20 roaches. he even tries to smack talk this fact to throw me off my game. I end up with 8 ultralisks and a handful of lings crushing his army (of which he never lost units from), and his newly made colossus.
I won because I kept his eco down while expanding myself, and I never once traded armies evenly.
I fear that this is the only way people will be able to reliably play when faced with the loss of infestors. It also illustrates that for zerg, its more important to get ahead in bases and ignore their army and kill their vital parts, like guerilla warfare, than it is to go head to head. Without infestors, thats really all thats left.
We know going head to head is not reasonable for zerg armies vs T or P armies.
Zerg has half the army size it should since roaches were nerfed in supply cost.
Zerg has half the survivability it should, since roaches regen and armor was nerfed.
All races have a main unit that the race is based around, and for zerg it was hydralisk in brood war. For SC2, its roach. Yet as we can see, roach is actually bad, and people cite people who "stay on roach too long" as playing badly. Yet they were meant to be the main unit in the zerg force.
So the zerg lost their main unit, and were complaining forever untuil infestor nerf/buff (personally ,I think the 8 seconds is a far better deal than quicker DPS ofrom the same spell), and their main unit became infestor.
Is it any wonder we'll be back to square 1?
On September 12 2011 12:12 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:On September 12 2011 12:04 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 11:43 Truedot wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
Explain to us how a Queen is "tanky" when it loses 1:1 vs a zealot. Are you telling us to build queens, which cannot go on the offense until late game when you creep spread everywhere with an opponent who's either too incompetent or too dead to be actively killing creep? Spend 20 minutes making creep. 1 scan, and 4 seconds, all creep is gone. seems fair. explain how queen is tanky, when it moves slow enough on creep that void rays can continue to shoot it with their stupid 'moving shot" gimmick, and thus kill a queen off when its trying to get away, while also charging up on the queen. explain how a queen is tanky for 150 minerals when 2 roaches have more HP and have actual speed, better ground range, and better DPS for only 50 more gas? Anyone forwarding the idea of queens as a game changer beyond injections is a fool. Don't just shut down an idea when it has been seen to work in PvZ. Compare their late game usage to ghosts. Ghosts are mixed in and amassed in order to provide huge utility packed into 2 supply, for those late game maxed army confrontations. People have just started using ghosts in late game v Z, and now are finding them very strong. Similarly, hardly anyone uses late game queens, but I have seen them be very impressive in late game ZvP, so why not in ZvT? It doesn't matter that they are slow (off creep) since you have a bunch so you can spread creep quickly, and you are only following broodlords. Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage. 2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage 1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens! I'd rather not be completely dependent on creep instead of it being a very nice bonus as is. Remember this is super late game, so you should have creep everywhere by then.
because 1 terran scan or 1 protoss observer with the maijn army while you're trying to build up your own army doesn't completely dismantle creep in a few seconds that took 10 minutes to build, right?
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On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors.
yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better.
16 roaches beat 2 thors with 4 remaining.
you can make make roaches much faster than thors.
That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation.
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On September 12 2011 12:12 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:16 Belisarius wrote:On September 12 2011 10:03 Wren wrote:On September 12 2011 06:34 freetgy wrote:The reason that fungal growth is overpowered is pretty simple, fungal got overbuffed DPS wise. what funny is, that people might think that Fungal is only "half as strong" as storms (while the opposite is true) simple chart to make it understandable: (calculating with average dps of 10 for FG and 20 for storm) ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/dps788o.png) This calculation is only truly useful if you apply it to a huge group of units with size = 1 (whatever that might be) on hold-position (so they don't run from storm). This math is comparing fungal hitting 12.57 units to storm hitting 7.06 units. Now, while it is true that the extra area of effect is significant, real units are quite so nicely sized. Apply the calculation to a group of Thor, and the storm value will be much higher than the number for fungal. Huge squad of lings, vice versa. But the ratio will be the same. It's independent of unit size. Total dps is dps per unit * number of units hit. Number of units hit is dependent on aoe / unit size. So long as both storm and fungal are being applied to the same sized unit, the dps ratio won't change. If every unit has size 2, fungal hits for ~63dps and storm hits for ~70. If unit size is 0.5, 252 vs 282. It's always 125.7:141.2. Even then we're completely ignoring the fact that units can run out of storm while they always take the full hit from fungal. I don't think the point is that fungal does more damage than storm. It's obvious that fungal will take twice as long to kill any given unit. Moreover, storm still comes out ahead on dps*aoe. But it does show that fungal's raw damage output is a lot more than half storm. Add the root effect to that damage potential and you have a very scary spell. Actually, because of issues with: square mathematical units, round radii, and whatever shape units the game has, you're going to waste more space with larger units, and fill the space more efficiently with small ones. But that's really irrelevant, I merely posted to show that pure math only tells some of the story. I'm certainly not going to call fungal a weak spell, but it's silly to suggest its damage output is 89% of what storm's.
Just because it's surprising, doesn't mean it's silly. Unless you mean silly like "it's crazy that it actually is that close."
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you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors.
Repairing SCV completely change the outcome of the fight, i dont think even 8 roaches are gonna be able to win this
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On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation.
Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can not kill them with simple Roaches. And then there is SCVs on repair, and additional Hellion damage...
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On September 12 2011 11:37 WesleyLok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:04 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 10:29 sc2trainer wrote:On September 12 2011 09:43 Jubio wrote:On September 12 2011 08:58 Umpteen wrote:On September 12 2011 07:50 Jayrod wrote:
You guys always want to talk about good game design and stuff like that, but then complain when they try to limit a unit that is good in every situation. You say that zerg needs it because the rest of their army is so weak... if your goal is a good game design, why would they keep it the way it is... with zergs able to rely on one unit +anything else to deal with every situation. Have some patience with the patching. This is a really impactful patch and adding even more, like a hydra buff or a corruptor change or something, will make it even harder to see what the true impact of these changes are. When you talk about 'a unit that is good in every situation', you make it sound like a bad thing. But what you're actually describing is a unit composition that's robust, with few weaknesses and only a small number of fairly fiddly direct counters. A description which also fits a number of Terran and Protoss builds. Marine/tank, for instance, is extremely robust, scales well and segues cleanly into medivacs, Thors, Vikings and Ghosts. It denies ground to the enemy, allows for devastatingly effective, often game-ending harassment, works to deny drops, and is arguably the best, most mobile anti-air in the game. It works, or at worst transitions quickly and cost-effectively into something that works, against everything Zerg has to throw at it. I'd say marine/tank has been seen at least as often in TvZ as mass infestor, wouldn't you? So why aren't we talking about taking marine/tank off Terran, or nerfing it so that it doesn't work in quite so many circumstances? What is it about marine/tank that makes it more worthy than ling/infestor? Not really, the thing is, is the infestor works vs every race and there is no time when you WOULDN'T make them. Marine tank? Infestors. Colossus? Infestors. MMM? Infestors. Roach ling, muta, or even broods. Even vs banshees, void rays, carriers and even battle cruisers, no zerg unit deals with it quite as well as the infestor does. Every single matchup, in every single situation you should do nothing but make more infestors. Marine tank is nowhere the magnitude that the infestor is. There is an issue when the game revolves around the spam of one unit with the support of some lings and broods to push. Do not argue that the marine is the same thing. Its not. this its made to counter EVERY unit im glad for this much needed nerf, fungal is still op yeesh infestors are almost as good as ghosts Actually, Marines and Infestors are basically the same thing. Marines are pretty much good all of the time no matter what you're up against. "oh but Marines have soft counters such as infestors and high templar!" . . . . oh you mean like how Infestors are soft countered by Ghosts and High Templar? yeah ...... Are you in bronze league? Marines are HARD COUNTERED by colossus, high templar, banelings, infesters, tanks, hellions. Infesters are soft countered with extreme micro with ghosts and high templar, while hard-countering pretty much every unit in the game except for ghosts and high templar. Do you see the difference?
Sorry, i don't quite understand your point. Yes marines are hard countered by those units, but Marines are T1 so why would they not be? zerglings are also hard countered by those units and the only way to make lings work in a good composition is not getting them killed by micro-ing them correctly. yes, Marines have counters, MKP already proved micro can outmatch these "hard counters" so what's the problem with your Teir One unit dying quickly to much more costly units?
Yes for them to work late game, as good as Infestors do, you have to micro well, but they also cost 50 minerals each so they shouldn't be cost efficient versus the zerg tier 2 aoedps in the Infestor. If you don't like how marines die so fast, don't use them, or switch to protoss, i heard they have tanky units 
Infestors are not "soft countered" they are hard countered by Ghosts and High Templer, yes you have to micro a bit, so do zergs so all our Infestors don't get emp'd or feedback'd. Last time i checked Ghost's have cloaking, so that may help get emps off pre-engagement.
Now as far as your post goes in relation to the discussion at hand... assuming you read it... what he was trying to say is that terran builds often relies on the marine. Even if it may be for tanking and/or anti air they almost always have that unit in their composition because it is a GOOD UNIT. Why do Zergs use infestors, it is a GOOD UNIT, Zergs only good unit in tier 2. they are used all the time because they are a good unit not because either is op or w.e people are trying to say. Yes the way the zerg race is right now is too linear and i can say safely as a zerg myself playing now has become boring, but in terms of the necessity of the unit both races need them at the current game state so they are the same in that regard. The only way to change the zerg race is fix our broken units (hydra, corrupter, some would argue ultras), maybe nerf roaches but decrease supply so we can get more to create more tanks for our hydras, which should be our T2 dps. With the hydra buff infestors could go back to mainly a longer snare, low dps, which would help ultras anyways. These would change proper compositions to roach/hydra/infestor or roach/infestor, which is a much more beatable composition with large amounts of marines and a much less fragile game in ZvT. as far as ZvP, the roaches could tank more rounds of colo making the hydra dps last longer and an improved(fixed) corrupter would make them more viable. I could think that maybe another morph of the corrupter could be cool, one that can hit ground but at reasonable damage at a semi cheap cost so they do not become useless once their job is completed, since every other aa unit has a way to effect the ground combat. (a spell is ok, but it does not actually help when they just have more ground units then you)
TL;DR Zerg is broken, needs reworking, infestors are needed right now since no replacement dps exists in tier 2. marines and infestors are good units.
On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. 16 roaches beat 2 thors with 4 remaining. you can make make roaches much faster than thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation.
you don't see zergs winning with a brood lord only push do ya, one unit comps are bad don't use them to compare.
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On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches.
actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test
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On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test
Don't forget to bring SCVs.
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On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. 16 roaches beat 2 thors with 4 remaining. you can make make roaches much faster than thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation.
roaches re meat shields NOT dps. they fare very poorly, and the only reasonable response to thor rush is mass ling/roach, or roach/hydra (yes I said hydra), because as it is, hydra is the only high DPS unit in zergs arsenal, and while neither it nor roach can deal with thor cost efficiently, hydra certainly can kill thors faster and thus keep you from dying.
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On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
queen are literally as slow as non-stimmed marines. off creep they're even worse. think about this okay? zerg's supposed DPS unit, the hydralisk, is the same speed off creep as queen on creep, and costs 50 less minerals but 50 more gas, and has no casting abilities.
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On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test
Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave.
[I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them]
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On September 12 2011 11:44 Eps wrote:
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's.
It did all of these things 6 months ago, and zerg still struggled with terrans and protoss. Zerg currently still has a lot of trouble vs. terran, regardless of how many fungals it takes to kill a marine. You're making arguments about a unit completely divorced of its context within the game. If you actually give a shit about balancing the races, then you'll stop speaking in vagaries about the "versatility" of a unit, and actually consider the role the infestor plays within the zerg army, and the reasons why it has to be as versatile as it is. Were the blizzard balance team to actually do their jobs and properly balance the race, rather than instituting half-assed stop gaps as a way to bridge the time until HOTS, you could nerf the infestor without severely damaging game balance. As it is, zerg players, who've already suffered more than either of the other two races as a result of poor game design, are going to be out in the cold again if the NP nerf goes through.
If you want to nerf the infestor simply because you don't like the unit, regardless of the effect of such a nerf on the overall state of balance, your argument is without merit.
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On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors.
Yes agreed. From playing terrans who do mech on me, mech is my area of weakness as a zerg. It is hard as hell to beat because zerg has no cost efficient options to beat terran mech.
upgraded thors absolutely pound roaches to dust, and they just need a few tanks to seal the deal. go muta? thors still can win easily and mutas are not cost efficient either. go lings? they just get blue flame hellion.
the only real cost efficient way to beat thors was neural parasite and now with this nerf, zerg is in real trouble.
if blizzard is going to nerf neural this bad, which makes it completely useless, hydras need a serious rework.
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On September 12 2011 11:44 Eps wrote:
I'm glad you can see all the things wrong with the unit then. It does it ALL. Crowd control, dealing with mass low tech units, death balls, air units. It can also harass with Infestors and snipe Planetary/Nexus. It can also control any unit in the game for a limited duration. It is way to versatile for a Support unit.
The FG DPS nerf isn't even that big. A whopping 6 damage to Light/Armoured decrease. I don't have the specific post on hand but it doesn't change much in ZvP. In TvZ it still kills Marines in 2 FG's.
You can say that about almost every unit
Raven, Medivacs, High Templars, Sentries, etc
Doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with the unit.
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I did not say queen did alot of damage, I said they were tanky. They have 175 hp as Psionic type. Aka tanks/thors/immortal/stalkers/marauders/hellions still do the minimum damage to queens.
You obviously aren't really... aware. Queens lose 1v1 to a zealot, as in they fucking die. Stalkers beat them with micro.
I'm not suggesting you drop your queen in the front line, or use it in the front line at all as most of you are suggesting. It should be in the back assisting, taking out the medivacs with its long range. Transfuse will be able to keep up your T3 units for a very long time, while costing almost nothing to make. Not larva, not gas. Zerg don't really have problem with minerals late game.
Queen has amazing potential with transfuse, its just one of the units that has yet to be fully explored. Note I am not saying you should mass queens and win, but they should be additional casters in your unit that helps keeping up infestors/ultra/BL alive. Transfuse is probably the most underrated ability in game, just like snipe before recent events.
EMP, siege tanks, marauders, snipe, all murder queens. It's not the most effective unit to Terran's insane DPS. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. Why don't you try massing queens against Terran like that?
Ling/Bane is much better against a ghost army than getting mass queens. And this is a dumb conversation, because Zerg aren't complaining about ghosts or TvZ. And I'll repeat that queens get owned by ghosts.
Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled.
Infestors are horrible against siege tanks. Infestors aren't really viable against mech, so stop saying this change affects mech. People go either mass muta or mass roach agaisnt thor, and mutas are actually good against thors. It's thor/marine that's a problem for mutas.
As for zerg. This fungal nerf wont make that much difference, will it?
All it changes is 1 more FG for ghosts, vikings, and colossi and void rays. Kind of a goofy nerf, I believe people QQ'd about fungal on their marines (which is stupid, it's like saying storm is too strong when they don't make ghosts) and Zerg needed FG for colossi and void rays.
A buff to hydras really is needed. Does need some care though, as the difference between OP and useless with the hydralisk seems like it would be *very* minor (think about the roach and archon range changes) Hydras already do ridiculous damage, and in very specific circumstances are scary as hell.
hydras don't need a buff, they need to be removed. They have no place in this game, they are supposed to counter air but they actually get owned by mutas and phoenix (double stargate or muta openings zvz). There's no buffing or anything that could make them viable. They're cost and place in tech just needs to be totally reworked, because at the moment they are okay for all-in timing attacks against Protoss but that's it.
Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage.
2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage
1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health
Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens!
You are aware that Terran can double instantly snipe before Zerg regen right? And then there's EMP.
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On September 12 2011 12:25 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:22 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:21 BeeNu wrote:On September 12 2011 12:14 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors. yet 8 roaches beat 2 thors without micro. It won't even be a fight with micro. And gas should be the limiting factor here, not minerals. Nontheless, roach is better. you can make 8 roaches much faster than 2 thors. That is extremely cost efficient for zerg, consider the weakness thors have (extremely slow production speed, immobility). Pushing with scvs should not be factored as that is risk vs reward situation. Yes, in smaller numbers Roaches counter Thors. [never mind that a Terran going Mech will have Siege Tanks, but lets ignore that for the moment] once the Thor count actually gets to a much higher number you can no kill them with simple Roaches. actually, no. Once the number gets bigger, roaches pulls further and further ahead. Until a point I imagine when roaches start blocking each other, I'm going to do a 10 thor vs roach test Yes, Terrain plays a huge factor at a certain point, which is what I was kinda trying to get at. Once the Thor count gets large it's impossible just just A-Move your Roaches in and except to get a great concave. [I'm still ignoring the fact that Mech pushes always have Siege Tanks with them]
sure, but as zerg you can easily trade supply of roaches for thors and keep his count low. Terran will not be able to produce any feasible amount of thors/tanks by the time you max out. Mech terran suffers the same problem as protoss late game, if not worse.
Most zerg respond to mech terran by massing roaches, adding in infestors once their economy kicks in, to eventually Brood lords. NP is really overkill and not needed, and won't effect TvZ at any rate
And I lol at the other guy bringing in scvs as if that means anything. Say hi to fungals and banelings
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On September 12 2011 12:09 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:
Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors 4 Roaches (300/100) lose to one thor (300/200) in every possible engagement. In a thor-only push with SCV assistance, it takes about 8 roaches (600/200) to take out one thor (300/200). Roaches are not cost-effective against Thors.
Thats not really how cost effectiveness is looked at. 1 on 1 is misleading. Maybe one thor beats x amount of roaches until y then one roach doesnt die. If your going mech you want tanks against roaches
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On September 12 2011 12:28 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I did not say queen did alot of damage, I said they were tanky. They have 175 hp as Psionic type. Aka tanks/thors/immortal/stalkers/marauders/hellions still do the minimum damage to queens. You obviously aren't really... aware. Queens lose 1v1 to a zealot, as in they fucking die. Stalkers beat them with micro. Show nested quote +I'm not suggesting you drop your queen in the front line, or use it in the front line at all as most of you are suggesting. It should be in the back assisting, taking out the medivacs with its long range. Transfuse will be able to keep up your T3 units for a very long time, while costing almost nothing to make. Not larva, not gas. Zerg don't really have problem with minerals late game.
Queen has amazing potential with transfuse, its just one of the units that has yet to be fully explored. Note I am not saying you should mass queens and win, but they should be additional casters in your unit that helps keeping up infestors/ultra/BL alive. Transfuse is probably the most underrated ability in game, just like snipe before recent events. EMP, siege tanks, marauders, snipe, all murder queens. It's not the most effective unit to Terran's insane DPS. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. Why don't you try massing queens against Terran like that? Ling/Bane is much better against a ghost army than getting mass queens. And this is a dumb conversation, because Zerg aren't complaining about ghosts or TvZ. And I'll repeat that queens get owned by ghosts. Show nested quote +Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. Infestors are horrible against siege tanks. Infestors aren't really viable against mech, so stop saying this change affects mech. People go either mass muta or mass roach agaisnt thor, and mutas are actually good against thors. It's thor/marine that's a problem for mutas. All it changes is 1 more FG for ghosts, vikings, and colossi and void rays. Kind of a goofy nerf, I believe people QQ'd about fungal on their marines (which is stupid, it's like saying storm is too strong when they don't make ghosts) and Zerg needed FG for colossi and void rays. Show nested quote +A buff to hydras really is needed. Does need some care though, as the difference between OP and useless with the hydralisk seems like it would be *very* minor (think about the roach and archon range changes) Hydras already do ridiculous damage, and in very specific circumstances are scary as hell. hydras don't need a buff, they need to be removed. They have no place in this game, they are supposed to counter air but they actually get owned by mutas and phoenix (double stargate or muta openings zvz). There's no buffing or anything that could make them viable. They're cost and place in tech just needs to be totally reworked, because at the moment they are okay for all-in timing attacks against Protoss but that's it. Show nested quote +Now the juicy stuff. Using queens for transfuse can more than completely negate ghost snipe damage.
2 snipes = 50 energy, 90 damage
1 transfuse = 50 energy, 125 health
Then think about the fact that queens don't cost gas, and you can get about 2.5 queens per ghost if you value gas higher than minerals, which zergs do. In the late game, you want to max out with the most supply effective army possible. That means broodlords, infestors, some buffer units....... and queens! You are aware that Terran can double instantly snipe before Zerg regen right? And then there's EMP.
you are missing the point again. Infestor loses to zealot 1v1, it must be crap!
I have never mention massing queens, I said using them as support along with your unit composition. Try reading my post again before you reply
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On September 12 2011 12:02 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 12:00 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:57 iky43210 wrote:On September 12 2011 11:53 MrDudeMan wrote:On September 12 2011 11:38 iky43210 wrote:
First off, NP nerf will have almost no effect on TvZ. It is purely a PvZ change.
Secondly, Zerg is onpar currently with Terran with protoss quite behind both races. Zerg and terran have similar win rate against all match up, and ironically both equally smash protoss just as hard.
To the ghost QQs:
why are zerg not getting queens to counter against late game ghosts? If snipe is op, then transfuse must be out of this world broken.
Queens cost no gas and no larva. Doesn't have any armor type, so it is tanky as hell and have a decent good AA and range build into it. Problem is mobility, but with good overlord drop, creep tumors, and pooping creeps they should do quite well to counter against ghosts.
No, thor timing pushes will be much stronger now that you can no longer NP them. You must be joking about the queen thing, so I won't even address that. there is no such thing as thor timing pushes. Give me one example where there is this thor timing attack. Moving out at 2-3 thors? pure suicidal. btw roaches are extremely cost efficient against thors Sorry, not necessarily a timing push. Just a 2 base thor tank marine push, roaches are good against thors, but are awful against tanks. Zerglings are decent against thors, but awful against tanks. Mutas do good against tanks, but are bad against thors. And right now infestors are good because they can take control of the thors, but without that thors are virtually unrivaled. terran can not support a siege/thor/marine off 2 bases. Unless you're talking about mostly marine/tank with 1 thor, then its not mech build is it? The most terran can support at 2 bases is 1.5 factories pumping siege tanks. You either get siege or thors, you can't get both I am still waiting on zerg telling me why queen is bad as assist caster units. Its cheap, tanky, no larva requirement, good AA / long range, and have one of the strongest ability rival with snipe in game, without the need to suffer production (larva) or any gas to it. Sure it has its own weakness such as mobility, but its not something that can't be overcome. Zerg don't initiates fight that are not on their creep anyway, and late game can have overlord drop or overlord generate creep/creep tumor support.
This is just false overall... As a two base terran going mech you can easily support 4 factories 3 with tech lab and 1 with reactor going hellion/tank or 3 factories if going thor/hellion/tank 4 if your macro is slipping even a small fraction.... this is while taking a third (aka continuing scv production) and upgrading off of 1 armory...
As for why queens aren't used as an assist caster unit... That fact of the matter is that while you can discount mobility as something which can be easily overcome, in most cases it can't... With terrible DPS,horrible "tanky"(lol) abilities, and a healing spell which is virtually useless before B-lord/ultra tech queens are simply put not worth the two supply unless they are next to a hatchery spawning larvae... with the exception of a single excess queen to lay addition creep tumors incorporating queens as a support unit is not nearly as feasible as you make it sound...
Not trying to sounds at all bias here I am a masters(mid-low-low-low) level random player, but your understanding of this particular matchup seems to be lacking somewhat, or I have misunderstood your point...
Either way the argument being made that a 2base terran push with 4-ish thors and a solid 6-10 tanks along with blue flame hellion support is indeed extremely difficult to stop. Terran mech is an extremely difficult playstyle to counter especially if B-lord/infestor tech transitions are being kept in check and countered....
The fact of the matter is that a terran keeping on top of a zergs hive and infestor timings can transition into Vikings and ghosts in time to easily fend of the usual game ending zerg composition.... Theres a reason I go mech TvZ, and theres a reason I 2 base roach with ovie drops against a meching terran ZvT
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EPT
