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3815 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:17 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons. Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
1 well placed EMP is also capable of singlehandedly winning the game. 1 well placed storm is not.
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On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
^ No 1 storm isn't but several feedbacks are.
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The bigger issue for "Just build cannons" is that Cannons are fundamentally different than Spine Crawlers and Bunkers.
Spine Crawlers and Bunkers only require a Pool/Rax to be built which you will have anyway.
Cannons require Forge which other than allowing Cannons are pretty bad. When you see a 4 gate incoming do you think about getting +1 attack? Imagine trying to defend rushes if you needed an Evolution Chamber to build a spine crawler or an Engineering Bay to build a Bunker.
If cannons were changed such that you only needed a Gateway to build one, but they could neither detect nor shoot at air till you built a Forge then that right there would fix Toss's issue, but it would be a massive buff and make Cannon rushes just ridiculous so cannot be done without other changes.
IMHO, Protoss's mechanics make it a pain to balance. First, static defense is annoying as mentioned above. Second, Warp gives you 2 rounds of units back to back right as you gain the ability to attack across the map. The result is that you must balance Protoss so they can survive right before Warp finishes, but then a few seconds, and 2 rounds of units later when they are attacking across the map they cannot be OP. It is very difficult to balance that.
IMHO, Gateways should be changed such that they can warp in units within range of pylons that are near a nexus. This means you get your first Zealot in your base only a few seconds after your gateway finishes. This would give Toss a buf in the early game when defending from cheese, while simultaneously getting rid of Proxy gating. This would heavily nerf 6 pool and Cannon rush since the first Zealot pops 30 seconds earlier and also nerf the Proxy Gating totally since the Gateway's location is irrelevant to where the Zealot warps in.
Furthermore, since Warp would not longer be needed for defensive purposes, Hallucination first builds could become viable.
Next, I would say Cannons only need a Gateway instead of a Forge, but until Forge is made Cannons can again only be warped in near pylons near a nexus (So Toss would still have to Forge first to cannon in their natural) Also Cannons would be unable to shoot at air or detect till Forge is built. Again this massively helps defend against Cheese or early one base all ins since you can just start warping cannons in at your ramp when you see it coming. This provides no help to cannon rushing since Toss would likely just go Forge first and do as they do now rather than trying to get a Proxy Nexus up with a Proxy Pylon next to it.
Summary:
#1: Gateways can warp in units next to pylons near a nexus.
#2: Gateway allows construction of Cannon next to pylons near a Nexus.
#3: Cannons do not gain detection or ability to shoot air until completion of a Forge.
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On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
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It seems to me the most recent protoss wins against terran in the GSL and GSTL after last Code A finals has been early all-ins and timings. What with HongUn in the GSTL and Tassadar in the Code A.
I mentioned this in the other thread, but I fear that this might be the best response and the games will get that short and predictable...
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I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
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On August 10 2011 00:19 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
Then this thread serves no purpose, if the GSL players haven't found it what makes you guys, who don't earn a living off winning, any more likely to find it?
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On August 10 2011 00:09 WarpMePlz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote:
State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems.... Care to elaborate?
From the very beginning both Protoss and Zerg had alot of ups and downs(I understand that the game is still evolving and developing).. but Terran pretty much only had ups (60+% win rate at one point over other race).
These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long.
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On August 10 2011 00:09 Crying wrote:
We should sent Day[9] alot of PvT 1,1,1 all ins and he can do a really professional review and come with a solution.
Since HUK died to GanZi in MLG to a 1,1,1 i heard and MC died to Bomber to 1,1,1 i dont know
Why would a master level commentator understand Protoss better than MC?
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3815 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
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On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote:
And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins
You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
I hear there is this thing called 4gating...
The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
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On August 10 2011 00:20 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:19 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it. Then this thread serves no purpose, if the GSL players haven't found it what makes you guys, who don't earn a living off winning, any more likely to find it?
jesus christ then do us all a favor and stop posting.
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On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. ^ No 1 storm isn't but several feedbacks are.
He probably wants a response that will work in the GSL caliber consistently.
EDIT: And I have to agree with him that there needs to be a GSL caliber response.
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On August 10 2011 00:17 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons. Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
A protoss should always look to drag out a game pvt because it's very rare that lategame your army gets completely crushed (unless you get caught without an obs vs cloaked ghosts of something stupid like that). You'll either win the battle handily and then you can either push in with instant reinforcements or sit around and get even more gateways (20-30), get more bases, and more robos. Even if you lose your army, good protosses like hasu keep 1-2 templar back at home in case that happens and in combination with warpin of zealots, you can usually hold the counter. Ideally, in PvT, a protoss never wants to attack because with the current metagame, a terran shouldn't beat a protoss with a good economy, tons of gateways, max upgrades, and 3-4 robos producing.
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On August 10 2011 00:21 fritos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:09 WarpMePlz wrote:On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote:
State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems.... Care to elaborate? These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long.
This. The thread should be relabeled 'State of the Terran'
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On August 10 2011 00:19 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
This isn't a thread about people wondering what the answer is, because that would belong in a strategy section, and at least for 1/1/1 there already are such threads.
This is a thread about people stating the only answer is "this is imbalanced" (or if you want a more sophisticated variant: "the game design is bad" or "we're incomplete") and that all other answers are bad.
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Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff the only new thing they've done is zealot/archon but terran and zerg has experimented. Warp Prism is so underused it's so fast it's weird. Sure it's fragile but it's speed takes that, upgraded warp prism is FAST.
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On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
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On August 10 2011 00:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:17 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons. Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P. 1 well placed EMP is also capable of singlehandedly winning the game. 1 well placed storm is not.
Relying on Storms is a mistake imo, and trying to play too passively in most situations as well. But it is true that Ghosts also punish passive play from P, because once he has enough Ghosts with enough energy Protoss units basically don't have shields or energy anymore. Being maxed also means you have no drop defence anymore, which is why I think that Protoss should try to grasp every timing they have in PvT midgame. I cringe every time I see a pro P lose or nearly lose lategame PvT after an seizable advantage because he didn't want to end the game.
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On August 10 2011 00:14 Konsume wrote:So to be honest I totaly agree that protoss needs some help, but in a way to get this help they will have to trade something cause they're super strong early game, at least it looks like it in my games!  That may be more a reflection of your playstyle, particularly if you favour heavy macro. The consensus seems to be that Protoss are stronger late game than early game, and I would venture to suggest that it is specifically early-mid game defence where Protoss is especially weak.And on a side note, I know that Dustin said something about an harassing unit... but I taught that the DT was doing a fine job with this role no? how about 2-3 dts +3wep attacking my expand while I defend the main army at my main?? Yah they destroys a spore in about 2 sec and my hatch in 5!!
It's true that protoss does indeed have harass units available. Generally the problem is that protoss players cannot afford to use the various harasss units much, since the cost in resources, tech and production time is high and most do not contribute much to general army strength.
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EPT
