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On August 10 2011 00:07 mrsaturn wrote:
MC would have won both of those games with immortals. vs MVP, there weren't even enough marines to justify colsi being needed. the bunkers and the tanks were the winners, versus no immortal thats gg. gateway + immortal is on equal footing with 1-1-1.
versus noblesse MC just didnt have enough units, but had a robo that was mostly idle, used only for an obs. i feel like he KNEW an all-in was coming, and that he could hold with his skill and FF. which works versus an inferior player but not versus a player thats almost as good as you.
gateway loses to MMM, i think this is like the first thing anyone should learn about starcraft, medivacs are the point when terran becomes stronger than a gateway toss. immortals and charge are how the protoss equalizes.
Why are you spewing bullshit? It was a 1 base all in, how is MC supposed to have chargelots and immortals? Zergs should get broodlords to deal with 4 gates!
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The biggest thing protoss's need to learn is what terrans learnt in season 3-4 of GSL.
Timing attacks are on a clock, theres only so long you can do a certain strategy before people learn how to snap it's neck.
There are very few protoss players that actually strive for a macro game, and out of those diamonds in the rough only a handful like Youngwa / tyler actually advance current unit compositions.
Personally i think the future of PvP is the carrier, it'll just take about a year till they get there.
PvZ i still believe theres alot of room for growth, especially in warp prism/ stargate play.
PvT i have absolutely no idea how you can approach it, honestly the problem is the inability to KILL terrans after crushing a push.....
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On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
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On August 10 2011 00:00 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote:
It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^ Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.  + Show Spoiler +I agree, but sigh, the majority as usual... 
The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you."
I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play.
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The main reason i'm sick of laddering with protoss right now is the lack of harassment. It is practically non existant. The amount you have to invest into harassment practically leads you to an allin situation. If it dosent work you have already lost. I especially hate how the two best forms of harassment, dt and phoneix are both shut down by one building from each race.
I personally think protoss either need a unit similar to a hellion or they need to make the phoneix a beter harassment unit similar to mutalisks. For example giving them a building attack like reapers. Then they would be able to snipe turrets and not be shut down by one turret in trhe mineral line.
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1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
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On August 09 2011 23:55 HubertFelix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote:
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires. Could you explain lol?
Surely. 1 void ray wins vs one queen, but not by much, and Zerg should be able to get out 2 queens per each of your void rays, and will start pumping them once they see the void, making it a losing battle to begin with. So perfect void ray micro, and pulling back at exactly the right moment is essential, because if you lose even a single void the harass instantly falls apart. At the same time you have to worry about keeping the charge, since if you lose it you immediately lose your chance to deal more damage, since your void ray DPS will be much lower than that of a banshee (which costs much less) until it recharges.
But now the phoenixes rush in! Lift off a queen, focus another queen with voids, maybe kill it and another one. But make sure to constantly keep your voids away from spores, since by now, even if the zerg didn't start building them until you got there, spores will be done. And spores destroy toss air, which was alright when it took them so long to burrow, but now they can get up, move, and plop back down in a better spot without taking more than half damage. And see how I didn't even get to the part about killing drones? Try to slip some of that in there too.
All of this needs a ton of attention, much more than a medivac drop, or baneling drop. Since the units involved are so much more costly. And the worst part is that even if you do kill 2 queens, 14 drones, and some spores and overlords, zergs will hold it off and have been building nothing but drones the whole time. That is how much of a joke it is, that zerg doesn't even need hydras to deal with it, and usually ends up with many more drones than when the harass started. I would love to drop down 4 hellions and roast 25 drones in 5 seconds, and lose the hellions, I wouldn't even mind losing the dropship.
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On August 10 2011 00:08 GrimmJ wrote:
I feel as though if the Robotic Bay had an upgrade for Immortal speed (just like observer and warp prisim), Protoss would have a decent harrass unit.
Immortals only do 20 damage vs light, workers have 45 hp. 3 shotting a worker does not make for a good harass unit. Sure you can snipe buildings but that is a less effective form of econ harass than just killing workers.
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What should be done. Nothing !!
Its 1 year into the game and HOTS is due in around 6 months. Too late to adjust balance.
If I were a Protoss player unhappy with his race then switch to another race its that simple
Most of the issues affect only the Top 20 players in the world, and to be honest they are all Korean. This is a non issue to EU and NA, so posts like this are counter productive and tbh should be deleted as they serve no purpose
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On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
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I play protoss and it seems fine to me. Players take a third base too late PvZ and I think that's the biggest problem in their play. Maybe it's really that punishable but I don't have a problem defending a 3rd at the 11-12 minute mark while many others protoss expands at 14 or beyond.
That's just from watching Huk's stream now and how he plays. Overall I do feel the higher the level gets the more terran can do to get ahead though, and I do feel like a higher level terran is probably favoured, I think there it all comes down to the terran being able to put pressure on everywhere at once and thereby preventing a 3rd base for a while. At just regular high master level it is not a problem however.
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As a protoss I'm looking for a Terran nerf rather than a buff. PvZ isn't a huge issue. It's the sheer number of terrans tearing up the pro-scene. There's a reason TvT is such a great mirror with so many options. Banshees, hellions and mmm are all such cost-effective units with great harrass potential. I have no idea how Terran has escaped significant nerfs for this long considering their long-term success.
On August 10 2011 00:13 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I play protoss and it seems fine to me.
Same -.- However the game shouldn't be balanced around non-pro's. Spectators don't want to see terrans abusing imbalance, leading to endless majority Terran GSL's which reflect the state of the Korean GM Ladder.
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+ Show Spoiler +MC goofed the second game vs Noblesse. MC scouted it as early as it was possible to scout it. What happened was combination of 2 major things.
Stalkers got caught on high ground and he made the mistake of warping in next round of stalkers on high ground as well when Noblesse was outside his natural. That combined with Noblesse absorbing stalker dmg using the factory to get into a better position lead to MC losing that game.
MC would have been ok if he picked someone weak instead of MVP and get himself a win but unfortunately bad day for him after making a risky choice. MVP pulling off that contain has a lot to do with the map itself being iffy as well. Although I wonder why MC didn't choose to engage in the open ground with 1 coll + all those zealots. He scouted MVP moving out immeadiately with his obs. Bunkers + tank contain usually = gg in almost any MU no?
I'm considering race changing personally, not because P is UP but I really don't like how with each metagame shift either P does amazing or terrible. I think the same goes for Z. T just seem to be much more stable and adapts well to metagame shifts. Feels like the race that doesn't "counter" anything in particular and isn't "countered" by anyhting in particular.
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On August 10 2011 00:11 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:00 Talin wrote:On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote:
It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^ Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread. + Show Spoiler +I agree, but sigh, the majority as usual... The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you." I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play.
Then wait until the Korean progamers solve it.
Nobody here is a tip top Korean progamer, so it's pointless for people who don't know enough about the game to discuss balance related topics anyway.
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On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
yeah zealot/archon is very strong in late game because of the amount of gateways you can build and the mobility that comes with warping anywhere as opposed to colossus centric builds but it is quite fragile to harass in early game.
I think the terran response to it is the 1-1-1 all in since it has a huge weakness vs air.
MC only debuted this build like a month ago at NASL finals and koreans terrans have already tagged teamed the shit out of it >.<
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warp prisms are garbage. stop suggesting them. what you're really suggesting is that toss mimic the drop style of terran and zerg. let's think about this for a sec. whose drop is more effective? we should all be able to agree that terran is the best at dropping. banelings drops scale well and are useful as both harass and as components of an army. what about toss drops? sometimes you can catch an opponent off guard with moving HTs around. second, the active ability on the warp prism is fucking garbage.
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it looks really impossible to deal with the 1-1-1 timing attack right now.
I suppose thats the only thing protosses are whining about now?
But there was a time when other things looked impossible to deal with for other races as well.
They adapted and dealed with it, and i believe one of the pros will finally figure out how to.
If only there were more good protosses players around, who can advance the metagame.
Look at slayers, so many good terrans putting their heads together, which is why the bfh marine elevator came out.
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On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
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On August 10 2011 00:15 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons. yeah zealot/archon is very strong in late game because of the amount of gateways you can build and the mobility that comes with warping anywhere as opposed to colossus centric builds but it is quite fragile to harass in early game. I think the terran response to it is the 1-1-1 all in since it has a huge weakness vs air. MC only debuted this build like a month ago at NASL finals and koreans terrans have already tagged teamed the shit out of it >.<
Yeah MC goes into it off blink stalkers/dts to delay/harass slightly, and you see some other players going colo first before transitioning. Before you have the economy and infrastructure to really churn out the numbers (and get the upgrades/tech), it's definitely punishable, as Taeja so cleanly showed vs Tails.
All a different topic, anyway, but I'm still a fan of the composition :p
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EPT
