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On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors?
It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
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On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. ^ No 1 storm isn't but several feedbacks are.
Because the suggestions are just as bad as people telling zerg to use nydus more back when they were in a rut. Use warp prism more? Use carriers? I don't even know what half of the people coming into this thread trying to give advice are talking about. There is no "state of protoss metagame" to change with warp prisms, since the warpgate nerf we have no ability to put on pressure so zerg drones freely and now takes an extremely fast third compared to when they built their third during the time they struggled. All gateway timings have been figured out so it extends into the late game and largely ends in the mid-game because zerg has such a massive macro advantage. Also due to the warpgate nerf the 1-1-1 all-in has made a comeback and been refined because four gate is now holdable (and an instant loss) due to coming 20 seconds later. The warpgate nerf also makes the expansion timing later than it could safely be and you have almost one less round of warpins to combat any early terran all-in, and makes 3gate sentry expand hard versus roach/ling allin.
The struggle of protoss nowadays is almost solely based on the extremely weak early game. PvP is a complete highlight of it, where if you lose one stalker you have now died to your opponent's one base all-in because every unit is fragile in the beginning and hard to reproduce. Protoss is forced into a defensive posture in the early game which allows either for extreme greed or an all-in that still exploits unalterable timings. There really isn't even much to discuss, Blizzard will eventually make some sort of change, protoss will just lose, or Heart of the Swarm will come out and make changes to the overall rigid protoss game design.
The best foreign protoss, Naniwa, and another great one, Sase, are in Code A now and playing soon. Those two basically represent the two best protoss not currently in Korea. So almost every good protoss in the world has gone to Korea, and so far none of them are doing well against the competition there. Naniwa and Sase are unlikely to ever win the GSL but we'll see I suppose.
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I think the most glaring thing with the 1-1-1 is that Terrans are hardly executing their build to perfection. I've seen supply blocks, forgetting siege mode (lol what?), not making enough rax (some think you should only have 1 with reactor), some micro badly, some forget their Raven exists, and yet it is winning most of their games still. One of the many reasons why people have no idea how to defeat 1-1-1 atm is because when they do defeat it, they have no idea whether it was done correctly. This leads to people learning the incorrect response which happened to work when the Terran screwed up.
I've yet to see a definitive build of the 1-1-1 that is remotely refined (Bomber's variant seems quite refined though). Most Terrans are literally getting their composition of marine tank banshee and sending it to the face and it works.
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On August 10 2011 00:14 Konsume wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Imbalanced:
- Early game 10-20 mins in
- On certain maps like Xel'naga, Searing, Gultch.....
- Early economy (aka you can stay on par with drone count WHILE making combat units thx to chrono)
Under-powered:
- After the 20mins marks If I was able to deny your 3rd while taking my 4th
- If I can get to T3 with some good incomes
- If I was able to get away with a greedy build
Really..? -.-
Did you watch the games when Zerg can max out on 200 food when Protoss gets 130? I think it's just a matter of knowing when to drone, something that top pros all know how to do.
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On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
All these nerf are done like Months ago, It is only recently where Terran's are kind of abusing 1.1.1. I say give it some time, toss will find some ideas.
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On August 10 2011 00:22 WritersBlock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote:
And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins
You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that I hear there is this thing called 4gating... The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
Sometimes the "the race isn't fully discovered" gets old.
Just remember there is a possibility that you can't name top notch protoss players is because even if they practice just as hard they can't reach that S class point.
But truthfully, the tournament winners have been switching like crazy, Blizzcon EU thing Ret one, protoss second. If a race is able to get second in a tournament it's not imbalanced, I think if there are any issues it can be worked out with more protoss favourable maps.
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On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
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I think that both protoss and zerg have similar problems when it comes to nerfing/buffing when compared to terran. I feel that terran is easier to nerf/buff because good terran play currently relies on more factors then protoss of zerg play. To put it in the words of Dustin Browder "Terran is currently the most complete race".
IMO the biggest thing protoss depends on until now is brute force and how to get to that point of brute force in order to crush the opponent. Terran on the other hand, can win in different manners, because they can rely more on harassing/raiding as well as having some very nifty brute force timing pushes.
Balancing protoss for that matter becomes hard, because if you buff certain units too much protoss can go death ball mode to easy and when you nerf units too much they become weak and depend more on their opponent screwing up rather then outplaying someone.
The same goes for zerg I feel atm. Zerg wasn't doing too well until one unit got slightly buffed (infestor) and suddenly they started kicking terran and protoss ass like it was nobodys business. Take away that buff and zerg suddenly becomes that frail race again.
I think that hoping for better balance in Wings of Liberty is kinda foolhardy. The best we can hope for is that Blizzard has learned from the past year and will add some units for zerg and toss that make the race more complete, as to compete with terran better.
Plz keep in mind btw that this is not meant as a balance complain and whatever and that it's just my humble opinion based on watching a lot of pro play and playing myself. (I'm a toss player btw.)
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The true problem is the the reasoning behind the balance nerfs for toss. For example:
Flux vanes removed - too good in team games
Zealot build time nerf- too many silver players losing to 2gate
When you make changes to the entire race, to make a matchup easier for low level and casual players, it has repercussions at the higher levels of play, and those repercussions are magnified when pros play each other. Blizzard is sacrificing GSL race diversity for silver players, which, while probably good for business, is bad for esports.
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On August 10 2011 00:22 WritersBlock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote:
And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins
You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that I hear there is this thing called 4gating... The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
1) 4gate is an all-in and its become so common that just about every player knows how to defend it.
2) Protoss is not the most mobile race (youre retarded if you think so).
sure we can warp in anywhere but thats countered by shitty units we can warp in that does jack shit by themselves (zealots/stalkers), expensive (dts, hts), that all end up being a glorified way of donating to the other player.
3) People seriously need to stop thinking warp prisms being used more will balance the game. I agree it is underused but thats because a) it takes up robo time b) useless in army therefore it represents a diverging tech c) we have such shitty units to harass with
4) gee i guess all the top notch players picked terran? i guess thats just a coincidence? or maybe they see that terran is infinitely more rewarding for good mechanics and multitasking.
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On August 10 2011 00:27 eraft wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you. All these nerf are done like Months ago, It is only recently where Terran's are kind of abusing 1.1.1. I say give it some time, toss will find some ideas.
1. The 1-1-1 all-in builds are absolutely not new, they've been around for a long time.
2. The statistics chart goes all the way back to the launch of the game which is why I looked at all patches since launch.
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Korean opinion on balance:
http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/
72.7% think that protoss is weak.
I don't think Protoss is weak as a race, but early-mid 1/1/1 terran push is kinda too strong. Hope we will find solution soon. Other than that protoss still dominates late game.
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On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good.
I don't know about the early game problems
And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
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On August 10 2011 00:23 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:17 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 10 2011 00:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:06 ForTheDr3am wrote:On August 09 2011 23:57 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss..... Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess. I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi. Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons. Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P. A protoss should always look to drag out a game pvt because it's very rare that lategame your army gets completely crushed (unless you get caught without an obs vs cloaked ghosts of something stupid like that). You'll either win the battle handily and then you can either push in with instant reinforcements or sit around and get even more gateways (20-30), get more bases, and more robos. Even if you lose your army, good protosses like hasu keep 1-2 templar back at home in case that happens and in combination with warpin of zealots, you can usually hold the counter. Ideally, in PvT, a protoss never wants to attack because with the current metagame, a terran shouldn't beat a protoss with a good economy, tons of gateways, max upgrades, and 3-4 robos producing.
I know that it is mainly my opinion, but even MC said that Terran has the advantage on big maps like Tal'Darim after 20 or 25 minutes. This, and various observations from professional PvTs in a time before 1-1-1 killed everything, led me to that belief. I might be wrong, but it works in my own games. As of now it doesn't matter though, PvTs don't really reach mid/late game anymore.
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On August 10 2011 00:26 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you. Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors? It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
I'm looking at overall trends, not individual players. There are always exceptions, but my point remains. On top of that I've Losira and Nestea use infestors in some PvZ's and they certainly use them in TvZ.
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Also what happened to Tyler's double forge upgrade build? when did that go downhill?
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
NO! cannons are good against zerg, Vs terran they are just a Glass of water.
unless u make like 6cannons in a row, which is a bad investment.
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On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Cool. So a full, what, 1.75 years after launch Protoss will finally be where it should be? Nice. So until HotS, we get to watch Tosses losing over and over. Yeah, that makes sense. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) that in HotS you'd get some good units! Oh yay, HotS?! I only have to wait a year for my race to be usable? Why thank you Blizzard, you are too kind.
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On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
There is some truth in your narrative but it is woefully simplistic. None of those nerfs would really have helped Protosses to hold the marine/tank/banshee all-in that has been winning so many TvPs in Korea - so the points are somewhat unrelated. You also tend to ignore the fact that void rays got a huge buff by making them do additional damage to massive units. You can point to actual games where Zergs actually lost because of that buff - for example, Fruit Dealer vs Ace game 3 on Metalopolis in the Super Tournament - whereas the recent trend of Protoss problems is not related to any of those. Do you suggest that Protoss players would build void rays to defend the siege tank marine banshee all-ins when there are 15 or 20 marines around and a starport to make vikings?
As for the note about the infestor, there is obviously truth to it but it also misses some key moments in the evolution of Zerg player. First, the strength of the brood/infestor/corruptor composition was starting to be discovered and exploited to great effect in ZvT prior to the infestor buff - you can see this in 12 weeks with the pros with Darkforce. Around the same time there is a good deal of experimenting going on with alternative styles of ZvP involving banelings, mass zerglings, hive tech and even infestors - all before the infestor buff. As these new approaches came to be refined by pros like Morrow in the West and Coca and Losira in Korea, the match-up changed. Of course, the infestor buff played a role in all of that as well, but changes were happening prior to and concomitant with the infestor change. It was not so drastic that immediately Zerg became overpowered or won every game.
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On August 10 2011 00:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:11 Cyrak wrote:On August 10 2011 00:00 Talin wrote:On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote:
It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^ Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.  + Show Spoiler +I agree, but sigh, the majority as usual...  The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you." I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play. Then wait until the Korean progamers solve it. Nobody here is a tip top Korean progamer, so it's pointless for people who don't know enough about the game to discuss balance related topics anyway.
It's clearly idiotic for us to try to solve this problem in the place of the Koreans, on that we agree. By your logic, however, there is no possibility that this won't be solved at some point. Your default stance is that the game is balanced.
My default stance is that I don't know whether or not it's balanced, so all I can do is look at the evidence. The fact is that we will be waiting on a patch that may or may not come, but both popular positions in this thread; "it's imbalanced" or "lol metagame" are both stupid.
If you think it's imbalanced wait for the patch, if you don't then you can be shocked and dismayed if or when there is a patch... and the cycle continues.
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EPT
