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On August 10 2011 00:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
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Protoss players are losing to early game terran all-ins in the GSL, yet this thread has become a generic protoss whine thread. Suddenly protoss is terrible at everything.
Whats the point?
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On August 10 2011 00:26 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you. Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors? It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
Because they can expand freely w/o risk and then zerg macro mechanics takes over and it does not matter what units they have. Protoss now takes a FE in response but they just take a third and protoss cant at that point in the game.
They are awesome players too but when protoss CAN NOT deny it spells big big troubles. Terran still can pressure fortunately but even that matchup is rather imba even is w/l is 50/50. Terran strong early until zerg ball takes over.
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On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line. 925/425 loses to a spore crawler or an overseer Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote:
Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast. I believe Korean protoss are something like a 20% winrate versus Korean terran in the GSL right now.
Yo dawg, add another 100 for a pylon, you can't have an Artosis pylon / show all your tech you know!
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On August 10 2011 00:33 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:31 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
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On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
He does that special stuff more against people he completely outclasses like on his stream. Watch him dropping drewbie with a warp prism full of archons and then see it killed with like 1 scv killed for instance.
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On August 10 2011 00:32 hypnobean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you. There is some truth in your narrative but it is woefully simplistic. None of those nerfs would really have helped Protosses to hold the marine/tank/banshee all-in that has been winning so many TvPs in Korea - so the points are somewhat unrelated. You also tend to ignore the fact that void rays got a huge buff by making them do additional damage to massive units. You can point to actual games where Zergs actually lost because of that buff - for example, Fruit Dealer vs Ace game 3 on Metalopolis in the Super Tournament - whereas the recent trend of Protoss problems is not related to any of those. Do you suggest that Protoss players would build void rays to defend the siege tank marine banshee all-ins when there are 15 or 20 marines around and a starport to make vikings? As for the note about the infestor, there is obviously truth to it but it also misses some key moments in the evolution of Zerg player. First, the strength of the brood/infestor/corruptor composition was starting to be discovered and exploited to great effect in ZvT prior to the infestor buff - you can see this in 12 weeks with the pros with Darkforce. Around the same time there is a good deal of experimenting going on with alternative styles of ZvP involving banelings, mass zerglings, hive tech and even infestors - all before the infestor buff. As these new approaches came to be refined by pros like Morrow in the West and Coca and Losira in Korea, the match-up changed. Of course, the infestor buff played a role in all of that as well, but changes were happening prior to and concomitant with the infestor change. It was not so drastic that immediately Zerg became overpowered or won every game.
I would absolutely say that with good micro (pre charging your Void Rays) they could have been viable vs 1-1-1. Charged void rays used to have insane DPS.
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Protoss lategame, at least at GSL levels of play, isn't that much of an issue, at least not to the point as to warrant a discussion. The problem is there is no way for P to keep up with T / Z in the early game.
In PvT, if you expand before T does, you basically die, your openings are pretty much as fragile as it is in PvP. You can straight up lose to a 1 rax marauder expand if you go for a 1gate FE, for god's sake. Terran has a variety of openers they can use, from passive like hiding a CC in base whilst being walled off, to semi aggressive like 1rax reaper or 1rax marauder, fast ghost push, or 2rax, or 111, or banshee play, all of which have the potential to outright kill a Protoss if not read absolutely perfectly with VERY limited information, and don't even put the T behind at all IF they are read perfectly. On some maps you can get away with a faster expansion, but even then it's a gamble as to whether you might get busted by a quick drop play, a cloak banshee, or something similar - all the while T ALWAYS has the option to either plant a safe CC behind his ramp / bunkers, or pull workers and turn light pressure into a very hard all-in or contain.
Because of that, P typically has to play from behind. Chronoboost lets you catch up a bit on probes, but that means your tech ends up lagging, then mid-game comes around where you're a sitting duck for hellion / mmm harass and again, if the Terran isn't being awful, at best you're trading even by shutting down the drops, at worst you lose straight up to 8 marauders sniping a nexus or a twilight council in 3 seconds. Warp prism play isn't really viable as you are already behind on econ and your units take longer to construct, so any drop you do lose sets you back much further than it sets the Terran back - nvm that you have to construct a specialist unit for that, whereas Terran has every tool needed to both perform AND counter a drop as part of their standard army (medivacs, marauder/marine, vikings, most of the time a few turrets as well).
Once the econ evens out, and if the P didn't suffer too much from mid-game harass, it's usually very even; there's still the debate of EMP vs feedback / storm etcetc, but really... how often do we see that kind of late game play? Last series between real top pros I remember was PuMa vs MC (and boy, was that series awesome?), but 99% of the time PvT boils down to all-ins and sometimes 2-base timings, so discussing whether or not archon / carrier / whatever is viable and balanced is pretty hard.
In PvZ, P is a little less fragile than vs Terran, having the ability to expand pretty safely and efficiently... but there are absolutely no options to punish a Zerg doubling your econ once you do expand. MC's fast VR build worked well the first time he used it, but since it's literally the only strat you CAN do from behind an FE, it's been dissected and is easily countered by correct queen & spore timings. That leaves 2-base gateway all-ins - which is pretty much all we see from Protoss players in GSL PvZ, which again, are all easily counted by top level Zergs.
If and when the P somehow gets through midgame, secures a third and maybe even a fourth, things are much more interesting, with several different styles being somewhat viable, but again, just like in PvT, when a P loses a lategame match it's hard to say whether that was because Infestor + Broodlord is too strong or because P players simply don't have the experience playing lategame matches - because it rarely ever gets to that point, and most of the time, P are playing from way behind economically.
All in all, personally I don't see how can what I consider to be the issues of Protoss race be fixed without a pretty substantial rework. Perhaps charge could be moved to cybernetics core, that would let Protoss deal with roach / marauder kiting easier in early game, without breaking late game too much, but what do I know, I'm not a game designer.
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The Brotoss don't whine like the tiny zergs did, we make epic songs.
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On August 10 2011 00:33 Bagi wrote:
Protoss players are losing to early game terran all-ins in the GSL, yet this thread has become a generic protoss whine thread. Suddenly protoss is terrible at everything.
Whats the point?
Errr I think most posters are highlighting 2 major issues: Lack of harass options and vulnerability to earlygame all-ins (PvT). Even blizzard has made note of the lack of harass and problematic timing attacks.
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On August 10 2011 00:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:33 Talin wrote:On August 10 2011 00:31 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote:
1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out. Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance". I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems.
It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies).
Do I need to remind you that Ret completely dominated Naniwa with pretty much the most standard unit compositions for Zerg since beta (I've only seen Infestors in 2 games, one they just got sniped, other they weren't even used).
Thinking in terms of unit compositions is thinking on an extremely low level.
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On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote:
Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff This point of view is fucking infuriating. Why is it that people assume that ever protoss is a retard. That top protoss players who are getting shit in Korea are just trying the same thing over and over. Of course they try to "fucking do new stuff". It clearly isn't working. Their may be something that has yet to be discovered but to act like P players must be sitting back and twiddling their thumbs while T and Z try new stuff is short sighted, arrogant, and idiotic.
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Just keep watching the big protoss games. Those guys are working on it. And no offense, but they're smarter than all of us. Big discussions like this aren't really necessary.
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On August 09 2011 23:26 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:25 Dfgj wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar? Every game I get the chance, in GM. Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in). Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive. Choya v Qxc in the GSTL showed Warp prism speed + Colossus drops and while Choya was blatantly intended it to be cute it also showed potiential.
Collossus drops? Chances are the terran saw your support bay and will start making vikings. Then he keeps one viking in each of his mineral lines.
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There are no safe openings for Protoss that don't put you behind. That's the problem.
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There are also some other interesting stats to look at. For instance number of Protoss players in Code S/Code A.
GSL January:
Code S: 9 (28,13%)
Code A: 9 (28,13%)
GSL March:
Code S: 9 (28,13%)
Code A: 6 (18,95%)
GSL May:
Code S: 10 (31,25%)
Code A: 12 (37,5%)
GSL July:
Code S: 9 (28,13%)
Code A: 11 (34,38%)
GSL August:
Code S: 8 (25%)
Code A: 9 (28,13%)
As you can see Protoss have except for May had an underrepresentation when it comes to the GSL. I did not include the statistics for 2010 because that's pretty irrelevant right now.
The interesting thing here is if we look at the players on the nine pro-gaming teams in Korea there are 51 protoss (according to TLPD) These 51 players represent 31,9% of the players in these teams which is very close to 1/3.
(World Championship and Super Tournament players were decided on previous GSL records and they are a bit different so I didn't include them in this comparison.)
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On August 10 2011 00:34 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:26 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0
WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2
Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0
Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0
Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3
Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you. Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors? It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them. Because they can expand freely w/o risk and then zerg macro mechanics takes over and it does not matter what units they have. Protoss now takes a FE in response but they just take a third and protoss cant at that point in the game. They are awesome players too but when protoss CAN NOT deny it spells big big troubles. Terran still can pressure fortunately but even that matchup is rather imba even is w/l is 50/50. Terran strong early until zerg ball takes over.
NesTea and Losira have designed a specific build that deters the current Protoss favourtism shown towards using a Stargate to stop Zerg 3rds. There has to be some sort of timing in that build you can use to exploit their defense towards Stargates.
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Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
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On August 10 2011 00:37 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:34 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:33 Talin wrote:On August 10 2011 00:31 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:13 Heavenly wrote:
[quote]
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference. Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance". I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems. Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems. It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies).
zergling/baneling drop/ultralisk/infestor deals fairly well with the protoss ball. In a lot of ZvP you don't even see an exceptional amount of infestors.
boom. Only buffed slightly by the infestor's increased damage to armor, but now requires more fungals to keep the protoss locked in place.
Turtle behind spinecrawlers while posturing defensively with neural-parasite infestors.
Transition into mass broodlord/infestor/corruptor.
Now explain a unit composition that adequately deals with the 1-1-1.
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Well now that Bisu is playing SC2, you can expect Protoss to be OP in about a week.
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EPT
