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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does... Unfortunately you're 100% right. MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him. | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:26 Heavenly wrote: Because the suggestions are just as bad as people telling zerg to use nydus more back when they were in a rut. Use warp prism more? Use carriers? I don't even know what half of the people coming into this thread trying to give advice are talking about. There is no "state of protoss metagame" to change with warp prisms, since the warpgate nerf we have no ability to put on pressure so zerg drones freely and now takes an extremely fast third compared to when they built their third during the time they struggled. All gateway timings have been figured out so it extends into the late game and largely ends in the mid-game because zerg has such a massive macro advantage. Also due to the warpgate nerf the 1-1-1 all-in has made a comeback and been refined because four gate is now holdable (and an instant loss) due to coming 20 seconds later. The warpgate nerf also makes the expansion timing later than it could safely be and you have almost one less round of warpins to combat any early terran all-in, and makes 3gate sentry expand hard versus roach/ling allin. The struggle of protoss nowadays is almost solely based on the extremely weak early game. PvP is a complete highlight of it, where if you lose one stalker you have now died to your opponent's one base all-in because every unit is fragile in the beginning and hard to reproduce. Protoss is forced into a defensive posture in the early game which allows either for extreme greed or an all-in that still exploits unalterable timings. There really isn't even much to discuss, Blizzard will eventually make some sort of change, protoss will just lose, or Heart of the Swarm will come out and make changes to the overall rigid protoss game design. The best foreign protoss, Naniwa, and another great one, Sase, are in Code A now and playing soon. Those two basically represent the two best protoss not currently in Korea. So almost every good protoss in the world has gone to Korea, and so far none of them are doing well against the competition there. Naniwa and Sase are unlikely to ever win the GSL but we'll see I suppose. I always hate it when people claim that Protoss is the least innovative race. The reason why a lot of people see Protoss as "cheesy" in first place is because people invented good 1-2 base timing pushes, like 4 Gate, 4 Gate Blink, 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 6 Gate +1, 7 Gate Blink +1, 7 Gate Blink +2, 5 Gate + Immortals, 3 Gate Stargate, 3 Gate Robo, 7 Gate Chargelot +2 armor. In PvT Protosses have tried Colossus based armies (either with Phoenices or not) and Zealot/Archon/HT based armies, Phoenix openers, DT openers, ridiculously detailed and strict 1Gate Expands etc. In PvZ Protosses have used Colossus armies, Colossus/Void Ray, Zealot/Archon, Stalker/Immortal/HT, even Motherships (before Blizzard decided that Archon Toilet was too powerful trolol). Compared to that it took Terrans a year to figure out how to properly 1-1-1 and Zergs several months to find out that it actually is possible to do multipronged attacks, or build other units than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor, or take a fast third base against FFE maybe. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
Similarly, PVT phoenix can solve a lot of problems as well. Drops can still work (as Puma showed), but they work like they did in BW zvt; phoenix act like scourge and make drops suicide missions. | ||
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Premier
United States503 Posts
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jyvblamo wrote: Well now that Bisu is playing SC2, you can expect Protoss to be OP in about a week. ..what?! | ||
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Crying
Bulgaria778 Posts
You got trolled. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:42 -_- wrote: I think stargate is the key. Specifically mass phoenix. FE, I think the generic pvz opening on shak or any other fast expand maps should be double stargate mass phoenix. Similarly, PVT phoenix can solve a lot of problems as well. Drops can still work (as Puma showed), but they work like they did in BW zvt; phoenix act like scourge and make drops suicide missions. I agree that there's potential in that direction, I'd like to see more of it in high-level play overall. | ||
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x6Paramore
Canada130 Posts
1) you will win more games... this will improve your fun factor and prevent smashing of hardware 2) you will lose to good protoss... this will improve your game theory on how it feels to be a zerg Bonus advantage/disadvantage: you will be called a fag by all Protoss | ||
Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does... ok genius. name a comp that would work. | ||
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theBALLS
Singapore2935 Posts
We should compile a list of points which protoss seems to have no answer to, then try to solve them systematically. I shall kick it off, do add on valid points should you have them: 1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise: 2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise: 3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise: 4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise: 5) Feel free to add on, but only valid points please! Let's keep this thread as flame free as possible. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility. I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote: Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff the only new thing they've done is zealot/archon but terran and zerg has experimented. Warp Prism is so underused it's so fast it's weird. Sure it's fragile but it's speed takes that, upgraded warp prism is FAST. lol l2p protoss. whatever. Protoss do lots of new stuff. There is no tech tree unused or unexplored and what exactly you want to drop? Zealots that can't even catch probes? And why when you have DT's and warp in? | ||
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gustavohmp
Brazil139 Posts
Its like you guys think MC is the only protoss in the world, or the only good one I bet that if Naniwa or Sase win their games tomorrow, you guys will be all like "baaaaw but its Code A" And if HongUn, Alicia, or Puzzle make it to later rounds, it will be like "baaaaaw they were lucky" Im a Protoss player and this thread is embarassing You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining. All of you are spoiled and will only acknowledge skill over balance when all 3 races are the same with different skins | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:40 Dfgj wrote: Unfortunately you're 100% right. MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him. You mean MC creates a bunch of timing attacks that everyone copies but eventually get adapted to. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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RumbleBadger
322 Posts
I do think toss deserves some sort of buff. I dunno what, any suggestions I make would probably totally screw up the game, but a buff that helps them make changes to the metagame. Obviously the infestor buff helped zerg, but there were also many metagame changes in that time period that helped out even more (imo) like Spanishiwa's play style and zergs realizing they can take really fast thirds and be safe. While we will have to wait to see if Blizz does anything about it, I would like to see some cool innovation. You guys have already thrown around a lot of great ideas, but I remember seeing this video and thinking it was really cool and funny: | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:45 Dfgj wrote: Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility. I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level. idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On August 10 2011 00:47 gustavohmp wrote: Blizzard wont give in to P crying just like they didnt to Zerg crying Its like you guys think MC is the only protoss in the world, or the only good one I bet that if Naniwa or Sase win their games tomorrow, you guys will be all like "baaaaw but its Code A" And if HongUn, Alicia, or Puzzle make it to later rounds, it will be like "baaaaaw they were lucky" Im a Protoss player and this thread is embarassing You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining. All of you are spoiled and will only acknowledge skill over balance when all 3 races are the same with different skins Hey Tosses didn't have any intention of giving all of our abilities and units to the others races, Blizzard just made SC2 like that. We didn't give a dragoon to the other 2 races (marauder and roach). We just ask that if the other races get units like the dragoon, then make ours (the stalker) into less of a "Scout" from BW. =P | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
In PvZ, well, I have no personal insight in the matchup, and stats do seem to be a bit volatile, yet if a change is needed, it's probably a change to the infestor or protoss' way of dealing with them. A collective solution would be giving Stalkers (or sentries) some sort of energy-burn passive ability, burning X number (could be 4-8) of energy and dealing damage equal to the energy burned. Gives considerable firepower against banshees and infestors. Just a quick idea. | ||
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