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On August 10 2011 00:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:45 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:43 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote:
Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does... ok genius. name a comp that would work. Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility. I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level. idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution.
There's a difference between asking for suggestions and laying down a 'speak now or hold your peace' ultimatum on balance :p
One encourages discussion, one prevents it.
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On August 10 2011 00:40 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:37 Talin wrote:On August 10 2011 00:34 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:33 Talin wrote:On August 10 2011 00:31 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:29 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:27 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:24 Denzil wrote:On August 10 2011 00:22 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:18 Denzil wrote:
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Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response. all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.' what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice. So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit? All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us. Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance". I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems. Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems. It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies). zergling/baneling drop/ultralisk/infestor deals fairly well with the protoss ball. In a lot of ZvP you don't even see an exceptional amount of infestors. boom. Only buffed slightly by the infestor's increased damage to armor, but now requires more fungals to keep the protoss locked in place. Turtle behind spinecrawlers while posturing defensively with neural-parasite infestors. Transition into mass broodlord/infestor/corruptor. Now explain a unit composition that adequately deals with the 1-1-1.
It's also easy to "boom" it in hindsight, isn't it?
Now, if you watch some of the recent ZvPs where Zergs dominate top Protoss players, you won't see any Ultralisks and often times Infestors either. You'll often see the most standard unit compositions Zerg used since forever, just used better (roach/ling early, roach/hydra, etc). Baneling drops also aren't anything new.
Like I've said, thinking in terms of unit compositions is thinking on an extremely low level. Unit compositions don't solve anything, and nothing revolutionary will happen to solve this either. People will just figure out how exactly to exploit the weaknesses of 1/1/1 or whatever else there is, and that's that.
On August 10 2011 00:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:45 Dfgj wrote:On August 10 2011 00:43 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote:
Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does... ok genius. name a comp that would work. Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility. I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level. idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution.
What makes you think anybody is entitled to it? To be honest if it was up to me, I'd hand out bans like crazy for even discussing so-called imbalances (and a lot of them are actually handed out in other threads). This isn't beta anymore for gods sake.  At least as a Protoss player myself I can be somewhat happy that we don't have whiners among progamers like Zergs did... yet. -_-
What makes you think anybody can just "give" you the solution either? The fact that nobody has come up with a workable solution YET doesn't mean you're not overreacting. You KNOW nobody has the exact solution which you just use as an excuse to vent and call all suggestions bad.
This really makes me sad. I would have thought that it would stop a year or so after release and that everyone would figure that eventually all gameplay problems get solved. But now it seems that every time somebody comes up with a refined build/strategy/timing, we're going to have to endure a month of outcry in every corner of SC2 community.
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I think Zerg is really instructive here. A big part of Zerg development was figuring out drone timings...but an equally part were two MAJOR buffs and one minor buff. The Roach got +1 Range, which turned it from a mediocre unit into the core Z unit it is today, The Infestor got a major dps buff which gave Z a ranged AOE/map control unit they'd been missing ever since Blizz got rid of the Lurker, and the Spine Controller was made more mobile to make holding off Staregate/DT pressure a bit easier.
The Roach and Infestor buffs were the biggies though. Zerg went from not having a single decent core unit that was useful throughout the game and could win fights straight up, and not having a single late tier unit worth teching towards or any means of delivering ranged AOE and controlling the map, to having units that comfortably fill both roles. Surprise surprise, Z is now vastly more playable and competitive across all levels.
Protoss right now just feel lacking in the way that Z pre-buffs felt lacking. Most of the most abusive timing pushes they had were nerfed out, and the remaining ones have been thoroughly figured out, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that if they aren't exploiting a favorable timing or allowed to reach a critical mass deathball, Protoss are really, really fragile.
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The air tech tree seems a bit unrefined. How often do you see the fleet beacon in pro games?
Hope they implement dark archons or twilight archons and tweak the Mothership in HotS.
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I think the 4 gate nerf that was meant for PvP needs to be reversed.
It allows Z and T to cut more corners, and give them more time to scout. They just can play greedier than before. All timings are a bit later.
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I personally feel that the problem isn't with in the protoss race, but in all races. Blizzard thinks that in order to balance a game (with three races), and have all races win roughly 50%, there must be a slight advantage given to one of the races. Granted all three races are played the same, then all three races SHOULD have a 50% win ration, unfortunately this does not make for a very interesting game.
Going into a match thinking that ether myself or my opponent has a advantage in game, makes me feel like I am just playing a more visually stimulating rock paper scissors game. This game had SOOOOO much potential, and blizz is throwing it away, cause they think this is the easier rout. A waiste of what could have been an amazing game tsk tsk.
Z is entirely to strong vs toss. An average zerg can spam roach, or ling, or inf, or muta and gain a respectable rank or league without even using micro. Simply hot key units and send them to an area that is under attack. To many times have I seen Z send units to an area without even looking at what is happening in their base. For example ~ I send 4 phoenix to a Z base, and mass lings show up below my phoenix. Does Z even look whats going on in game? Or are they just massing units and assuming they have some thing to handle w.e aggression is happening? IF so I cant help but think this requires less skill in general.
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On August 10 2011 00:23 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:21 fritos wrote:On August 10 2011 00:09 WarpMePlz wrote:On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote:
State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems.... Care to elaborate? These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long. This. The thread should be relabeled 'State of the Terran'
That's what I've trying to these folks..
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I'm a silver league player so I guess my input isn't very valued, I watch all the events though and what it seems to me is just some inflexibility when it comes to Toss. I mean you pretty much have to go templar or colossi every game, or just all-in. I know that you can say other races are the same, but it seems with Toss you just kinda do what you can based on early scouting, then changing it later costs you an arm and a leg. Also if they were to make actual changes, I'd like to see a change in the concussive shell for marauders, they just seem too good against gateway units.
I wouldn't take any of my opinions very seriously though, again SILVER LEAGUER
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I think the huk style is what needs to be used more. Either really early expansions (almost always a 1gate fe) or extremely well hidden yet successful all-ins. Protoss players need to realize that the stargate play was cute, but its easily defend able now that its expected more.
Don't worry, come GSL October the top 4 players will probably all be protoss. It always happens in cycles.
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the sentry drop video is so lulzy!!
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Protoss has the same problem zerg had for a huge amount of time.
While zerg had the problem to juggle between expansion / units / drones, protoss has also to juggle between expansion / tech / units.
What's for zerg units / drones, is for protoss tech / units.
You're very often on a thinly path were you have to choose how you continue.
Either teching very fast and risking dieing to a timing attack because you don't have enough shit, or completely outmicro them and win the battle regardless. If you delay the teching to much, he'll be more ahead in tech and you surrender even more mapcontrol, letting him take a third for instance.
It's especially prevalent in PvT. If you take your expansion to early, you lack tech (mainly sentries)and units, so he can deny your expansion with several builds that you can't really scout.
Now you have to choose to get tech to scout (hallu / robo) or play without scout / detection and get auto-loss against cloak. If you choose to tech up, you get a scout with the robo, but nothing in addition. Immortals are trash past early low unit count battles. If you see now he goes for a 1-1-1, you're fucked, because you have to choose between get higher tech that won't come in time before his attack, or get a shitton of inefficient units against his highly efficient composition.
If he choose to expand early as well, you're about even, and you have to choose to either tech fast up to colossus or stay on gateway units and upgrade them. If he scouts that you get early colossus, you surrender mapcontrol, thus he may drop you or do 2 pronged attack, while you're totally on the ropes and the tiniest mistake may cost you the game. If you go for the gateway style, me may just sit back, get good upgrades / ghosts and add a third. You have no way to punish that, other than taking a third as well while slowly teching up, and be susceptible to many timing pushes / drops because you're spread out.
If you go the fast colossus way and survive his drops / pokes etc. , you have to take a third and slowly getting your charge / blink upgrades as well as the storm path, because he'll have enough vikings and will murder your colossus if he doesn't mess up. You have to choose again between units for safety, tech to stay equal in the later game, and the expansion.
While you're the whole time really fragile.
If you manage to survive all this and be even, you're in a good position, because you have all our tech and a good economy. But you may still lose the game to some good emps.
And everything comes down to your gateway units being absolutely shitty and only effective in one blob while using forcefields to segment his army.
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On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote:
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
Players like Huk and San have gotten carriers before, and they have worked though, so it can work.
Also, carriers are a lot less gas intensive than people may think, because the interceptors cost minerals too
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You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining.
Ugh...you do know there's a been a pretty serious dearth of elite Protoss players for several years now in BW, right? And that even at their best (Bisu, Nal_rA) there has never been a Protoss Bonjwa? The state of Protoss in the BW scene is not something to aspire too.
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On August 10 2011 00:40 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote:
Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does... Unfortunately you're 100% right. MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him.
I don't think you guys understand just how drastic patches are. Just slight nerfs/buffs can totally change a matchup and Protoss had a lot since MC was on top. Just to illustrate how drastic small changes make:
Look at infestor. It got a slight buff, and only to armored units, and went from never being used to being the go to unit for many Zerg.
Archon +1 range and massive, very slight, now protoss everywhere is using them.
Unfortunatly nerfs work the same as well and two WG nerfs has crippled protosses ability to pressure FEs.
It's not a "meta game" change but a game change.
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Canada4481 Posts
A lot of these comments sound exactly the same (except with the races being changed) as when Zergs were complaining about the "ridiculously OP" ZvP matchup. "Protoss" players were telling zergs to try "new, different, stupid, gimmicky shit" like mass infestors, and zergs were saying exactly this:
On August 10 2011 00:38 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote:
Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff This point of view is fucking infuriating. Why is it that people assume that ever protoss is a retard. That top protoss players who are getting shit in Korea are just trying the same thing over and over. Of course they try to "fucking do new stuff". It clearly isn't working. Their may be something that has yet to be discovered but to act like P players must be sitting back and twiddling their thumbs while T and Z try new stuff is short sighted, arrogant, and idiotic.
that, if their lively hood depended on it, professional protoss players would have figured it out by now. Zergs said the exact same thing a few months ago. If you look at the win rates in the OP, they change every month. It fluctuates between T being higher one month, to P being higher the next month. Is there going to be one of these threads every month solely based on whatever race wins a tournament?
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On August 10 2011 00:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think Zerg is really instructive here. A big part of Zerg development was figuring out drone timings...but an equally part were two MAJOR buffs and one minor buff. The Roach got +1 Range, which turned it from a mediocre unit into the core Z unit it is today, The Infestor got a major dps buff which gave Z a ranged AOE/map control unit they'd been missing ever since Blizz got rid of the Lurker, and the Spine Controller was made more mobile to make holding off Staregate/DT pressure a bit easier.
The Roach and Infestor buffs were the biggies though. Zerg went from not having a single decent core unit that was useful throughout the game and could win fights straight up, and not having a single late tier unit worth teching towards or any means of delivering ranged AOE and controlling the map, to having units that comfortably fill both roles. Surprise surprise, Z is now vastly more playable and competitive across all levels.
Protoss right now just feel lacking in the way that Z pre-buffs felt lacking. Most of the most abusive timing pushes they had were nerfed out, and the remaining ones have been thoroughly figured out, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that if they aren't exploiting a favorable timing or allowed to reach a critical mass deathball, Protoss are really, really fragile.
Its posts like these that blow my mind.
Protoss is losing to 1-1-1 all-ins. Conclusion? Protoss is as bad as zerg before infestor and roach buffs.
Its just... What? Are you just ranting? How is protoss even weak lategame?
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I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
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On August 10 2011 00:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote:
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings) Players like Huk and San have gotten carriers before, and they have worked though, so it can work. Also, carriers are a lot less gas intensive than people may think, because the interceptors cost minerals too
To be fair, didn't San go carriers against Sen as a joke, and proceed to get them all killed by Corruptors easily?
Yeah, he won in the end, but that was by transitioning out of Carriers vs Sen not making anything but roaches (besides those corruptors) for 20 minutes.
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"get better" at least that's what all the dudes said to complaining zerg players all the time -.-
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The numbers in the OP seem to be far more about Terran dominating the matchups than Protoss struggling.
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EPT
