Heck yeah man! Let's gooo! Light killed it! Even though I main Protoss, I couldn't root for the guy that's been away for 4 seasons. Light must be feeling at the top of the world right now, just got married and won ASL 4-0. I'm calling it now, this guy's gonna be a father 9 months from now.
I personally do see a slight bias in the commentary, however it's to be expected, we're all a little biased every now and then. It isn't that bad to make it unbearable and the game knowledge Scan and Nyoken bring to the cast is so good I feel like I'm improving in the game just by watching.
WTF just happened... Light is monster, that invincible defense and macro at 1st game, that mid-game rush and contain on last game, that shit just makes terran look sooooo OP! I hope Rain won't go to long hiatus after this one (he went to one after his KSL finals vs. Light , same MU, same opponent). I think we need some dirty protoss like Mini to stop him, you just can't straight up win vs. this monster. GG Light! You deserved it.
On April 09 2022 19:28 oxKnu wrote: I completely disagree with what Scan is saying. Revolver is a perfectly fine map for Terran.
Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome but that's always a possibility on other 4p maps as well.
Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act.
I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in.
idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao
I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao.
As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it.
Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now?
Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong.
I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything.
+ Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community.
You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt.
Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily.
The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them.
Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say.
So what? Scan has right to have his opinnion as much as Best and Mini. You can watch and translate what Mini said during Bisu vs Light or Rain that matter. And are you serious, no terran pro predicted that Light would win. And while it is not certain, those players practiced with Rain and got trashed. Korean community was certain that Rain would win. Yeah surely you know better than them how this game works hahaha.
And for that, everyone was bashing Light when he switched to protoss and kept losing and losing. Surely he has not evolved as a player but maps are tesagi, terran is tesagi and protoss "is at disadvantage" shees.
Edit, I am just so tired of this crap, same thing when Last sweeped Jaedong, "maps are tesagi, casters terran biased, terran imba" blah blah. Its just so great, when zerg beats protoss on map like lunar colony or when terran loses on third world.
Lmao who said anything about Light or Rain or Tesagi that you had to bring that up. You must be very insecure about Terran-related matters huh? Even I myself always said Light is the best player skillwise.
And I don't know how you got that weird idea of players prediction being fully indicative of map balance. So, nothing to do with luck, form and the players themselves eh? Nothing to do with the Koreans believing in the champion pedigree of Rain especially after the semi (just like they were believing in Soma before that), and Light's tendency to underperform? No it has to be about maps lol.
But let's not bring the topic too far. The original matter is about Scan's bias in commentary. Go see the JYJ vs Bisu vods on youtube and see how many people also share my impression, that Scan himself had to give an explanation. If you want to dispute that, try to analyze how JYJ "did nothing wrong" and "the map is wrong" in that game.
No, I meant that Scan is maybe biased about maps, but not anymore than other koreans. It has been mentioned multiple times in multiple streams, that this season PvT seems to be heavily in favor of protoss, even if results speak otherwise. You can dive deeper if you want, but what Scan casts is very much alligned with what korean community thinks. If you don't like his casting fine, but disregarding ASL player and his cast as "biased" and "disgrace" is not.
You need to start constructing your own arguments with data and facts instead of appealing to a vague authority (the Korean community) that no one can verify the actual saying, the consensus, or the context.
Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse?
Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves.
That was expected. All the top protoss are pvz masters. They need better maps and/or shake things up. Rain went more or less the same build 4 games in a row. Can't do this in pvt.
Congrats to Light, he's really really good in tvp.
On April 09 2022 19:37 TMNT wrote: [quote] Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act.
I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in.
idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao
I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao.
As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it.
Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now?
Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong.
I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything.
+ Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community.
You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt.
Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily.
The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them.
Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say.
So what? Scan has right to have his opinnion as much as Best and Mini. You can watch and translate what Mini said during Bisu vs Light or Rain that matter. And are you serious, no terran pro predicted that Light would win. And while it is not certain, those players practiced with Rain and got trashed. Korean community was certain that Rain would win. Yeah surely you know better than them how this game works hahaha.
And for that, everyone was bashing Light when he switched to protoss and kept losing and losing. Surely he has not evolved as a player but maps are tesagi, terran is tesagi and protoss "is at disadvantage" shees.
Edit, I am just so tired of this crap, same thing when Last sweeped Jaedong, "maps are tesagi, casters terran biased, terran imba" blah blah. Its just so great, when zerg beats protoss on map like lunar colony or when terran loses on third world.
Lmao who said anything about Light or Rain or Tesagi that you had to bring that up. You must be very insecure about Terran-related matters huh? Even I myself always said Light is the best player skillwise.
And I don't know how you got that weird idea of players prediction being fully indicative of map balance. So, nothing to do with luck, form and the players themselves eh? Nothing to do with the Koreans believing in the champion pedigree of Rain especially after the semi (just like they were believing in Soma before that), and Light's tendency to underperform? No it has to be about maps lol.
But let's not bring the topic too far. The original matter is about Scan's bias in commentary. Go see the JYJ vs Bisu vods on youtube and see how many people also share my impression, that Scan himself had to give an explanation. If you want to dispute that, try to analyze how JYJ "did nothing wrong" and "the map is wrong" in that game.
No, I meant that Scan is maybe biased about maps, but not anymore than other koreans. It has been mentioned multiple times in multiple streams, that this season PvT seems to be heavily in favor of protoss, even if results speak otherwise. You can dive deeper if you want, but what Scan casts is very much alligned with what korean community thinks. If you don't like his casting fine, but disregarding ASL player and his cast as "biased" and "disgrace" is not.
You need to start constructing your own arguments with data and facts instead of appealing to a vague authority (the Korean community) that no one can verify the actual saying, the consensus, or the context.
Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse?
Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves.
Wdym, I didn't analyse maps or players because unlike apparently you, I don't understand pro players take on how maps are played. If someone here understands these matters its Scan. But whatever, I agree with you, Metaverse and specially monopoly + allegro are shit maps that should go in to same hole as bloom and thrid world.
I think that for anyone that has followed sponbbang/eloboard map statistics for the last couple of years, it is absolutely not surprising that a terran player has won this ASL -- in fact, I would say it's surprising that it took this long for it to happen post-Flash (I was very confident in Light or Rush winning last season personally). The second the old "imbalance meta" of p>t t>z z>p was broken due to Terran winning both matchups, this felt inevitable -- I can only imagine what it would've looked like if Flash was still around. Now there is always the potential that new meta/builds will evolve, and new maps that might surface that favour protoss in pvt, so I am not really worried.
As for Scan's casting, I actually think he did a decent job not being too biased, I find it natural that he would talk more about terran related things rather than protoss/zerg, and have a deeper understanding of the maps and meta from a terran point of view. I personally also enjoyed having a caster that was capable of translating both interviews and other random tidbits live, which can be quite difficult to do. Nyoken's casting was thoroughly enjoyable as always.
Although I do think insinuating that anyone that happens to dislike their casting or any aspect thereof is guilty of destroying/ruining the entire sc scene simply because they don't get paid for doing it, is a bit over the top.
On April 09 2022 19:28 oxKnu wrote: I completely disagree with what Scan is saying. Revolver is a perfectly fine map for Terran.
Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome but that's always a possibility on other 4p maps as well.
Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act.
I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in.
idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao
I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao.
As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it.
Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now?
Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong.
I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything.
+ Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community.
You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt.
Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily.
The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them.
Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say.
And did you just argue that in your book, the map has to support a Terran push "easily" for it to be considered "not wrong" lol? As if a map favoring Terran is fine and a map not favoring Terran (aka balanced) is wrong lol. The high and low grounds work for and against both races depending on the situation. It's not like only Terran has a problem with it. Also, where were your "the map is wrong" comment for Protoss on Monopoly? Where were you when Protoss "did nothing wrong" and died to a 3H Hydra?
What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up. I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny.
This is the real map data if you want to talk about. + Show Spoiler +
And this is bisu's interview after the match.
This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals. + Show Spoiler +
Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there.
And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games. Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers.
Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool.
What an awesome series from Light. That game one was flawless. I know I had to write Rain’s side, but there was no way Light could lose this finals. This is a great wedding present for the married man!
On April 09 2022 19:28 oxKnu wrote: I completely disagree with what Scan is saying. Revolver is a perfectly fine map for Terran.
Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome but that's always a possibility on other 4p maps as well.
Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act.
I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in.
idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao
I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao.
As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it.
Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now?
Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong.
I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything.
+ Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community.
You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt.
Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily.
The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them.
Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say.
And did you just argue that in your book, the map has to support a Terran push "easily" for it to be considered "not wrong" lol? As if a map favoring Terran is fine and a map not favoring Terran (aka balanced) is wrong lol. The high and low grounds work for and against both races depending on the situation. It's not like only Terran has a problem with it. Also, where were your "the map is wrong" comment for Protoss on Monopoly? Where were you when Protoss "did nothing wrong" and died to a 3H Hydra?
What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up. I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny.
This is the real map data if you want to talk about. + Show Spoiler +
This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals. + Show Spoiler +
Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there.
And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games. Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers.
Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool.
Ah yes, the condescending method . Citing some obvious knowledge like "Terrans don't like 2p maps" and "Light is good" and pretend that the other doesn't know it, hence gaining some virtual ground, while literally avoiding the main point of the debate.
Let me remind you the matter in discussion is that you blamed the map (Metaverse), saying "the map is wrong" and "JYJ did nothing wrong" for his lost against Bisu. While in fact, JYJ did make some mistakes, like getting his hidden Starport spotted immediately, or pushing at the wrong timing and with the army not synced up.
Let me remind you again that while you cite the high and low grounds of Metaverse as being disadvantageous to Terran, the fight where JYJ lost the game vs Bisu happened when his army already took the high ground and Bisu was the one attacking from the low ground. So even if Metaverse actually favored Protoss, it's not even the reason JYJ lost.
And I'm only discussing the objective facts that you failed there. I'm not even discussing stuff like the non-existent appreciation for Protoss in that series, which can be subjective to viewers and can be partly understood as you're a Terran player.
Of course 12 Nexus cross spawn is a very strong build and Bisu got lucky with both spawn and scout in that game. Everyone knows it. Bisu knows it. What's the point of citing his interview then? Did he say he won that game because the map is wrong for Terrans? No.
grats to the "invisible terran" and thank you based scan for competing in asl, providing the best casting for foeigners, and owning the seething protoss goblins on teamliquid.
Impeccable play from Light, it seems the scoreline made up for the time that it took a Terran to finally win ASL in the anti-Terran era. Cope and seethe more Protoss. In fact, I believe Protoss players should never be allowed to say anything related to balance because of the existence of 12 nex, gas steal, 1gate zealot pressure, proxy everything, reavers.
Not sure what's with the 12 nexus hate. Is it really that cheesy or abusive? From what I understand (and as experts as Scan and Nyoken always stress), Protoss needs to be way ahead in supply and econ to cope with Terran's upgrade and Zerg's tech. What is the standard build for Protoss then?
The casters are really doing a good job. But I do sometimes feel a lack of objective perspective may leave gaps in a casual viewer's understanding of current game meta and balance (like myself) and risks formenting a 'toxic' environment among fans (as glimpses from this thread has shown).
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for a Terran win from a player other than God himself. A good spread of wins between the races is good for the sustainibility of the game. Maybe next season more people can get into the casting scene? I liked BisuDagger's cast while it lasted. Maybe Scan and Nyoken can have some guest casters once in a while?
Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool.
I have a hard time understanding your statement here. Is the logic as follows? -> There aren't many Terrans -> Therefore Light's games are a large proportion of Terran games -> Therefore overall Terran stats are skewed in the direction of Light's stats -> Light is crazy good -> Light is masking certain imbalances (e.g., Metaverse), causing maps that aren't truly balanced to look balanced
Ah yes, the condescending method . Citing some obvious knowledge like "Terrans don't like 2p maps" and "Light is good" and pretend that the other doesn't know it, hence gaining some virtual ground, while literally avoiding the main point of the debate.
Let me remind you the matter in discussion is that you blamed the map (Metaverse), saying "the map is wrong" and "JYJ did nothing wrong" for his lost against Bisu. While in fact, JYJ did make some mistakes, like getting his hidden Starport spotted immediately, or pushing at the wrong timing and with the army not synced up.
Let me remind you again that while you cite the high and low grounds of Metaverse as being disadvantageous to Terran, the fight where JYJ lost the game vs Bisu happened when his army already took the high ground and Bisu was the one attacking from the low ground. So even if Metaverse actually favored Protoss, it's not even the reason JYJ lost.
And I'm only discussing the objective facts that you failed there. I'm not even discussing stuff like the non-existent appreciation for Protoss in that series, which can be subjective to viewers and can be partly understood as you're a Terran player.
Of course 12 Nexus cross spawn is a very strong build and Bisu got lucky with both spawn and scout in that game. Everyone knows it. Bisu knows it. What's the point of citing his interview then? Did he say he won that game because the map is wrong for Terrans? No.
ok since you pointed out "main point of the debate" I'll explain about my side and talk something more of your earlier comment
1) Scan saying "map is wrong, JyJ did nothing wrong"
Maybe I should've said differently with the word of choice. First, Metaverse is a conceptual map. I was saying map is wrong as a map was not on his side for JyJ to counter NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE 12 nexus carrier build. I wanted to say DIFFERENT map like a regular standard 4 player map may help for JyJ to fight back vs cross spawn 12 nexus carrier. I already pointed out in the earlier post that bisu made 0 mistake + JyJ's build sync up well for protoss victory. So I'll admit "map is wrong" for my fault since I chose wrong word + badly described. But JyJ did nothing wrong is true. If I have to pick on something, then it would be JyJ not syncing up his army correctly + not waiting for 2/1 upgrade before the huge fight. Also, hidden starport getting spotted doesn't matter for his build. His main goal is 2/1 upgrade and hide his information as much as possible.
And like I said, I don't root for anyone in ASL cast. I'm not biased for terran. I also wanted to see full 7 games of ASL Finals.
2) Earlier of your post, you were saying about the stats "Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%"
You stopped commenting about this part when I made the next post. You were saying these maps are not so favored for protoss and pointing out the winrate. Do you really think so? Every single protoss player knows the longer the duration of the game it is with pure gateway unit and early to mid stage of the game is super hard for terran to keep up. IDK the reason behind, but I can assume protoss players heavily practicing on speed shuttle mass gateway style to warm up for their regular maps TvP because they can't simply play on 2 player maps every time. Whenever protoss player is desperate with the victory, they will choose carrier build no matter what.
Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse?
Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves.
then what maps terran should play? Terran can't just only play 4 player maps. Protoss can't just only play 2 player maps. ASL organizer and ASL players already share their thoughts to make the negotiation like current mappool. some conceptual maps + some standard maps.
4) Bisu's interview The point of bisu's interview was he's agreeing on his 5th game was lucky. fate was on his side. Every small detail built up for the victory with 0 mistakes. I'm not saying Bisu won the game because "the map is wrong" I'm saying JyJ might have given the better shot on other 4 player maps. Just pretty much repeating from #1 at the above.
Not sure what's with the 12 nexus hate. Is it really that cheesy or abusive? From what I understand (and as experts as Scan and Nyoken always stress), Protoss needs to be way ahead in supply and econ to cope with Terran's upgrade and Zerg's tech. What is the standard build for Protoss then?
There are many openings protoss can start the lead off. Best one would be gas steal into somewhat fast expansion like nexus/1 zealot expo. Terran players don't use rax expo commonly because the early scout from protoss + zealot aggression most of the time which it makes rax expo feel worse than ever. It is matter of the mind games of these rax expo vs 1 base opening protoss OR 1 base opening terran vs 12 nexus OR 1 base opening terran vs 1 base opening protoss.
It is very common nowadays protoss often do early probe scout which eliminate terran's possibility not going for rax expo that often. Probably like 2 of out 10 games or so. Protoss 12 nexus opening is a different story than rax expo. Rax expo vs early probe scout for terran would be feeling like disadvantage opening most of the time since there are no early units + have to think various protoss early builds.
12 nexus has huge power with eco boost in early stage if there is no harassment/cheese. It literally forces terran to play turtle style vs heavy macro gateway style. If protoss does carrier, terran has to get up from the bed and go for the attack. because of the early eco boost with the 12 nexus, it makes carrier much more stronger than standard 1 base opening expo carrier build.
I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased.
Never have I thought I'd see Rain being toyed with. In all of the SC2 and in BW I've watched he's never seemed so helpless as in this series. Light totally outplayed him and the opening game was a thing of consummate beauty. The rest just rubbed more salt in the would, Light just showing off how much better he was that day. Utter domination, just astonishing, I'm in awe. Without knowing the name, you could've told me the Terran is that swindler Flash instead of Light and I would've just said "Yeah, makes sense, he's so good, untouchable even."
Just watched the finals, and holy shit Light is a monster. It's so crazy to me how back in the KeSPA days he was pretty much used exclusively as a TvZ sniper and now his TvP looks monstrous.
Very well played from Light. It really looked like Rain wasn't prepared for all the early timing pushes Light did in this series. He also played it very smart by playing Standard on a map that's fairly easy for Terran to split (If Terran gets safely through the early game, that is).
For the Scan bias thing, I really only saw this in the Ro24 for the Soulkey vs Mong game and that's a single game, so can we really complain? However, I haven't watched the 3rd place match yet so I can't comment on that but overall I've really enjoyed the Scan/Nyoken casts.
Edit: Disregard the last part of my message since it's PvZ anyway.
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