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[ASL13] Grand Finals - Page 14
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 10 2022 15:37 LaStScan wrote: ok since you pointed out "main point of the debate" I'll explain about my side and talk something more of your earlier comment 1) Scan saying "map is wrong, JyJ did nothing wrong" Maybe I should've said differently with the word of choice. First, Metaverse is a conceptual map. I was saying map is wrong as a map was not on his side for JyJ to counter NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE 12 nexus carrier build. I wanted to say DIFFERENT map like a regular standard 4 player map may help for JyJ to fight back vs cross spawn 12 nexus carrier. I already pointed out in the earlier post that bisu made 0 mistake + JyJ's build sync up well for protoss victory. So I'll admit "map is wrong" for my fault since I chose wrong word + badly described. But JyJ did nothing wrong is true. If I have to pick on something, then it would be JyJ not syncing up his army correctly + not waiting for 2/1 upgrade before the huge fight. Also, hidden starport getting spotted doesn't matter for his build. His main goal is 2/1 upgrade and hide his information as much as possible. And like I said, I don't root for anyone in ASL cast. I'm not biased for terran. I also wanted to see full 7 games of ASL Finals. 2) Earlier of your post, you were saying about the stats "Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%" You stopped commenting about this part when I made the next post. You were saying these maps are not so favored for protoss and pointing out the winrate. Do you really think so? Every single protoss player knows the longer the duration of the game it is with pure gateway unit and early to mid stage of the game is super hard for terran to keep up. IDK the reason behind, but I can assume protoss players heavily practicing on speed shuttle mass gateway style to warm up for their regular maps TvP because they can't simply play on 2 player maps every time. Whenever protoss player is desperate with the victory, they will choose carrier build no matter what. 3) I honestly don't understand this part + Show Spoiler + Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse? Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves. then what maps terran should play? Terran can't just only play 4 player maps. Protoss can't just only play 2 player maps. ASL organizer and ASL players already share their thoughts to make the negotiation like current mappool. some conceptual maps + some standard maps. 4) Bisu's interview The point of bisu's interview was he's agreeing on his 5th game was lucky. fate was on his side. Every small detail built up for the victory with 0 mistakes. I'm not saying Bisu won the game because "the map is wrong" I'm saying JyJ might have given the better shot on other 4 player maps. Just pretty much repeating from #1 at the above. There are many openings protoss can start the lead off. Best one would be gas steal into somewhat fast expansion like nexus/1 zealot expo. Terran players don't use rax expo commonly because the early scout from protoss + zealot aggression most of the time which it makes rax expo feel worse than ever. It is matter of the mind games of these rax expo vs 1 base opening protoss OR 1 base opening terran vs 12 nexus OR 1 base opening terran vs 1 base opening protoss. It is very common nowadays protoss often do early probe scout which eliminate terran's possibility not going for rax expo that often. Probably like 2 of out 10 games or so. Protoss 12 nexus opening is a different story than rax expo. Rax expo vs early probe scout for terran would be feeling like disadvantage opening most of the time since there are no early units + have to think various protoss early builds. 12 nexus has huge power with eco boost in early stage if there is no harassment/cheese. It literally forces terran to play turtle style vs heavy macro gateway style. If protoss does carrier, terran has to get up from the bed and go for the attack. because of the early eco boost with the 12 nexus, it makes carrier much more stronger than standard 1 base opening expo carrier build. I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased. Yes, Protoss has a few different openers. 12 nexus is just one option - greedy, and can be punished (as we saw in the finals). Isn't gas steal only viable if Protoss get an early scout? I remember Rain (or was it someone else?) pulling it off doing the group stage - seems more abusive and annoying than 12 nexus, judging from people's reaction? So yeah, my point is that there are far worse cheesy shenanigans - gas steal, proxy gate, etc. 12 nexus gives an early econ lead but still requires Protoss to play solid and be wary of all-ins. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 10 2022 18:28 JoinTheRain wrote: Never have I thought I'd see Rain being toyed with. In all of the SC2 and in BW I've watched he's never seemed so helpless as in this series. Light totally outplayed him and the opening game was a thing of consummate beauty. The rest just rubbed more salt in the would, Light just showing off how much better he was that day. Utter domination, just astonishing, I'm in awe. Without knowing the name, you could've told me the Terran is that swindler Flash instead of Light and I would've just said "Yeah, makes sense, he's so good, untouchable even." Rain's loss to Flash in ASL8 semis was worse than this. Those maps were actually decent for Protoss. Contrary to the sentiment in this thread, Rain actually did play pretty solid in these games. There were no terrible blunders or gross mistakes. His mistakes were either strategic: inferior build for the map, victim of getting scouted first or just being too greedy overall and Light just pouncing on that. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Likewise, in the 4th game, Rain was trying to both deny reinforcements and attack from front and behind with dragoons on the advancing marines and tanks of light. Problem was after Light scanned and killed the observer, he lost too much trying to figure out where exactly were the army to best coordinate the two armies, which is an amazing level of skill. I wouldn't characterise that as Rain being toyed with, but more of fog of war and coordination of two seperate groups to attack at the same time as difficult. As well as yet again, light started with an aggressive opener which gave an advantage to Light. 2nd and 3rd game were practically build order wins. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 10 2022 20:45 oxKnu wrote: Rain's loss to Flash in ASL8 semis was worse than this. Those maps were actually decent for Protoss. Contrary to the sentiment in this thread, Rain actually did play pretty solid in these games. There were no terrible blunders or gross mistakes. His mistakes were either strategic: inferior build for the map, victim of getting scouted first or just being too greedy overall and Light just pouncing on that. I agree with this sentiment for sure. Thought it was a very nice series to watch and even though Rain was my 2nd favorite player of the tournament I'm not disappointed in his performance in the tournament at all. I'm actually incredibly impressed by his overall performance considering how long of a hiatus he took from the game. Truly one of the greats - in both Starcraft 2 and modern Brood War. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 10 2022 19:19 EquilasH wrote: Just watched the finals, and holy shit Light is a monster. It's so crazy to me how back in the KeSPA days he was pretty much used exclusively as a TvZ sniper and now his TvP looks monstrous. Very well played from Light. It really looked like Rain wasn't prepared for all the early timing pushes Light did in this series. He also played it very smart by playing Standard on a map that's fairly easy for Terran to split (If Terran gets safely through the early game, that is). For the Scan bias thing, I really only saw this in the Ro24 for the Soulkey vs Mong game and that's a single game, so can we really complain? However, I haven't watched the 3rd place match yet so I can't comment on that but overall I've really enjoyed the Scan/Nyoken casts. Edit: Disregard the last part of my message since it's PvZ anyway. Hasn't Light been wrecked by Zergs past few ASL seasons? He barely survived against Action in RO8. Sorry, just thinking out loud. I don't recall much of Light during the twilight KeSPA years. His TvZ just seems shaky. Then again, probably due to the rise of top Zergs in recent years (and even Flash also struggled before military). Who has best TvZ now? Rush? | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Light has won two major titles in the Remastered era and the main knock on him as always been his nerves in offline tournaments. The idea that Terran struggles against Zerg is pure fallacy. Flash -- Light -- .. .. Others That's the problem right there. Others are getting good but not fast enough for the large amount of Zergs out there that are already top tier. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 10 2022 22:17 RKC wrote: I also recall Light was the one who popularised the 1-1-1 and fast valks against Zerg. But Zerg seems to have figured the build out? Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it: But during Kespa Era Light used 111 I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 15:37 LaStScan wrote: I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased. Well if you say it's just a matter of poor choice of words then the things are much simpler. Keep in mind that I have no problem with you being biased as a player but try to not show it, even inadvertently, during your cast. That's why I made the comparison with Artosis, who we both know is a million times more biased than you, but doesn't show it on his cast. Obviously it's just my opinion and there are others in this thread who disagree, but as you saw already, a lot of people on youtube also share my impression about that game so I'm not alone. Another instance I can remember is after the Light vs Bisu match, there was also an user on tl who didn't like when you used the term "dirty" to describe 12 Nexus. As for points 2 3 4 which mostly are about map balance as a whole. Although it wasn't my original point and I don't want to make a big thread about it, I'd like to say that the stats for the top 5 Protoss are skewed a bit from the overall stats because on average I'd say the top 5 Protoss players are stronger than the top 5 Terrans. Indeed, as Best and Snow alone have been monstrous in PvT for years whatever the map pool is. So single out the win rate of the top 4/5 players of each race doesn't really reflect the map balance. It's like when Flash was around and you include him in everything and suddenly Terran looked imba. Overall let's not make a big deal about this. I always really appreciate what you guys are doing for the community. Let's consider my problem with your casting like a fan feedback for you to improve and if I used the words too harsh or inappropriate, I apologize for it. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 10 2022 21:53 RKC wrote: Hasn't Light been wrecked by Zergs past few ASL seasons? He barely survived against Action in RO8. Sorry, just thinking out loud. I don't recall much of Light during the twilight KeSPA years. His TvZ just seems shaky. Then again, probably due to the rise of top Zergs in recent years (and even Flash also struggled before military). Who has best TvZ now? Rush? Light's TvZ still seems pretty good but it was definitely better during KeSPA days. Iirc he had a higher winrate than Flash at one point in TvZ (I could be wrong so someone please correct me in that case). I'm just incredibly impressed by how far his TvP has come since those days. For reference, in TvP he had 44.83% winrate and in TvZ he had 66.86% winrate during his career in the KeSPA days according to TLPD, which is just a massive difference. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway699 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4100 Posts
On April 10 2022 23:13 EquilasH wrote: Light's TvZ still seems pretty good but it was definitely better during KeSPA days. Iirc he had a higher winrate than Flash at one point in TvZ (I could be wrong so someone please correct me in that case). I'm just incredibly impressed by how far his TvP has come since those days. For reference, in TvP he had 44.83% winrate and in TvZ he had 66.86% winrate during his career in the KeSPA days according to TLPD, which is just a massive difference. While Flash was around, no other terran player had a higher or equal winrate in any of the matchups. He always hovered around 70%+ in every matchup. Post-Kespa he reached 75%, briefly even 80%. Light's best matchup is TvZ and he sometimes came close to Flash's winrate with only a few % difference. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On April 10 2022 23:00 TMNT wrote: Well if you say it's just a matter of poor choice of words then the things are much simpler. Keep in mind that I have no problem with you being biased as a player but try to not show it, even inadvertently, during your cast. That's why I made the comparison with Artosis, who we both know is a million times more biased than you, but doesn't show it on his cast. Obviously it's just my opinion and there are others in this thread who disagree, but as you saw already, a lot of people on youtube also share my impression about that game so I'm not alone. Another instance I can remember is after the Light vs Bisu match, there was also an user on tl who didn't like when you used the term "dirty" to describe 12 Nexus. As for points 2 3 4 which mostly are about map balance as a whole. Although it wasn't my original point and I don't want to make a big thread about it, I'd like to say that the stats for the top 5 Protoss are skewed a bit from the overall stats because on average I'd say the top 5 Protoss players are stronger than the top 5 Terrans. Indeed, as Best and Snow alone have been monstrous in PvT for years whatever the map pool is. So single out the win rate of the top 4/5 players of each race doesn't really reflect the map balance. It's like when Flash was around and you include him in everything and suddenly Terran looked imba. Overall let's not make a big deal about this. I always really appreciate what you guys are doing for the community. Let's consider my problem with your casting like a fan feedback for you to improve and if I used the words too harsh or inappropriate, I apologize for it. We’ll put in that last sentence. I hope it is clear that Scan and Nyoken did an amazing job casting this season. Any criticism about bias should be taken as something completely separate from the enjoyment and quality of cast that we got from them. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 11 2022 00:05 Magic Powers wrote: While Flash was around, no other terran player had a higher or equal winrate in any of the matchups. He always hovered around 70%+ in every matchup. Post-Kespa he reached 75%, briefly even 80%. Light's best matchup is TvZ and he sometimes came close to Flash's winrate with only a few % difference. Thanks for clarifying. Maybe I misremembered because he came close. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 10 2022 22:45 whaski wrote: Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it: https://youtu.be/2dT4U1xU6Hg But during Kespa Era Light used 111 https://youtu.be/RLurOizm6ns I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly. Don't forget about Fantasy...probably the first to use this strategy effectively long ago. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1689 Posts
Damn really thought Rain could win it he showed so much more skill this season than Light did. Just didn't show up tonight | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 11 2022 11:08 Sirris wrote: Don't forget about Fantasy...probably the first to use this strategy effectively long ago. Not to derail this thread, the original dropshipcentered version "T1-build" was invented by Iloveoov and adapted by Fantasy and Ssuck And lol sure sure, Rain showed more skill than Light during tournament with these results. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years). | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. Don't even sweat it, most of us appreciate your commentary and the stuff you guys do for the community a lot. Check Scan out on Twitch guys. Hilarious game the other day where he beats arty with carriers and tanks (mind controlled SCV) where the tanks actually contributed to the win and weren't just a way ahead flex | ||
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