EPT
[ASL13] Grand Finals
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
Head - Rain | ||
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angry_maia
314 Posts
Head - Light | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
FIGHTING ! ! ! | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
Head - Rain | ||
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Katkishka
United States649 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1764 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
Edit: oh cool my 3000th post. I got a ghost icon now. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 15:07 angry_maia wrote: Heart - Rain Head - Light You are now my mortal enemy lol  Clearly joking...you just have the opposite picks. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 16:44 KameZerg wrote: Is this gonna be another terran defends and toss attacks for 20 minutes and then T wins with one push? No it will not! Rain will learn from Bisu's struggle. He will use a solid non carrier mid game then start carriers in the late midgame at near max to force a response. I'm talking 170ish supply he will max up with carriers. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
On April 09 2022 16:44 KameZerg wrote: Is this gonna be another terran defends and toss attacks for 20 minutes and then T wins with one push? Recall R16 Group A winners match on Eclipse. Light tried but mine replacement not mature as it failed. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:01 NoS-Craig wrote: I think Rain will win. He just looks so strong right now. Edit: oh cool my 3000th post. I got a ghost icon now. Grats man. My thoughts as well. Before I saw Rain vs Soulkey I favored Light to win this season. After seeing how Rain adapted and improved to do so well against Soulkey and then continued that improvement against Soma I had to assume he would analyze and destroy Light's play. I don't know for sure of course, I just have to make that educated guess. Assuming things somewhat normalize in the early game I would expect Rain to use multiple shuttles with templars to fight against the midgame terran. From there I expect him to start +1 air weapons early and transition into 2 stargate carriers just before maxing (either for the first time or for the second time depending on how terran plays). Of course this could all be nonsense based on how the games go. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:11 NoS-Craig wrote: I usually pick Rain against anyone but Flash. You're a wise man. Champion blood is strong. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
From what I’ve seen from Rains PvTs he often throw away units into fortified Terran positions, but let’s hope he’s improved. I’m fine with either of them winning but it would be nice to see a Protoss win, better yet someone who just returned to the scene. Maby that will make the others get their shit together and start improving. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1032 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:23 maybenexttime wrote: Anyone know how long all the intro stuff will take? I have to pick up some stuff from IKEA. Don't wanna miss the first game. :< It's usually 10 minutes or so but since it's a finals I would say at least 15 minutes. Just an educated guess. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
there should be a live audience as well for the finals(about 514 people) | ||
prosatan
Romania8046 Posts
 Please LR a bit | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 16:44 KameZerg wrote: Is this gonna be another terran defends and toss attacks for 20 minutes and then T wins with one push? Maybe one of the games. Rain will also cheese though. It's a Bo7. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:47 prosatan wrote: I cannot watch it Please LR a bit I got you. Most people probably don't like it but I can't help myself  I'll be spamming Live Reports based on my reactions. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: its a finals, the first 30 mins is interviews and hype. there should be a live audience as well for the finals(about 514 people) You're more correct of course. I didn't know if this finals would be scaled down. Side note...super excited for these finals. I love TvP and this is one for the ages. I hope it lives up to it. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1764 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:23 maybenexttime wrote: Anyone know how long all the intro stuff will take? I have to pick up some stuff from IKEA. Don't wanna miss the first game. :< I always tune in 20 minutes after the start time, puts you in the first minute or two of the 1st set. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:32 Sirris wrote: It's usually 10 minutes or so but since it's a finals I would say at least 15 minutes. Just an educated guess. Cheers. I missed the bus... I'll stay for the finals and try to reschedule. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:18 maybenexttime wrote: Cheers. I missed the bus... I'll stay for the finals and try to reschedule. Blind-Rawr predicted it better;) But thank you. The bus system clearly doesn't understand how important this ASL is haha. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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namkraft
458 Posts
Rain 4: 2 Light | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:26 namkraft wrote: Stats completely in Light's favor, both sponbang and ASL competitions. But as we have seen in the semi-final, stats don't really count for Rain. Rain 4: 2 Light I agree completely. We just saw the maps. I'm going Rain 4-3. WOOOOOOO clap sounds and stuff | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
Rain needs to clear the mines asap. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:41 oxKnu wrote: Light is way ahead. No quite yet Rain needs to clear the mines and delay the third. Rain can't over commit here. Light is stronger than Rain thinks I think. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
That wasn't good enough though. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:42 staatbauhaus wrote: yea Bisu sea geumchi saying Light is way ahead I know what i see. I disagree Light is doing very well though. Not saying that. Rain has a strong chance though. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Not sure you want to do this on this map. If Terran gets safely to max they're hard to punish. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Feels that Light wins this 90% of the time when he gets to that point on 3rd base. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:47 Motivate wrote: why is everyone hyperaggressive these days vs terran? bad push from rain, even with the good storms I think because it works vs every T right now besides Light. Light found the cheatcode of winning by making PVT games longer than TVT. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Rain effectively on 3. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:47 Motivate wrote: why is everyone hyperaggressive these days vs terran? bad push from rain, even with the good storms It's a good strategy on Eclipse. Most other game states are incredibly bad for Protoss late-game. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:53 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Those were some juicy storms on those tanks. Still wasn't enough. Feels like this map is relatively easy for terran to defend whilst at the same time too open for carrier use somehow. Yes, Eclipse is a phenomenal Terran map mid-to-late vs P. Tremendous game-sense for Rain to attack into that 4th to trade armies and prolong the game. This latest attack is basically a death-move though. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:54 Sirris wrote: Carriers go!!! don't think jaehoon strats would work against someone like Light. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Terrible recall and by now Protoss is in the graveyard. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:57 Motivate wrote: i feel like protoss is on a timer in this map... not an easy match up v T and yet protoss has been doing excellently on this map, they just tend to end games quickly. Light managed to drag the game out to pretty much split the map now. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
losing on eclispe doesnt bode well.. (for my liquibet choice ^^) | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:57 Sirris wrote: Sigh...Rain needed to let Light take the top left and just go carrier. Use the templars to defend. Not attack. You're joking surely. If Light scans carrier switch he A moves to a win in the next minute. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:58 oxKnu wrote: You're joking surely. If Light scans carrier switch he A moves to a win in the next minute. You slowly make carriers to force goliaths. Then defend the a move with mass templar. You dont need to make all your carriers at once. You balance them with your ground army. Just two carriers changes how the game works. Otherwise you have to attack them. I'd always prefer to have terran attacking into me. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:03 niteReloaded wrote: Why don't people include a Dark Archon or two in the late game... Feedback is just 50 energy and it would own Vessels.. EMP is strong.. lol | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:03 niteReloaded wrote: Why don't people include a Dark Archon or two in the late game... Feedback is just 50 energy and it would own Vessels.. EMP is strong.. It's the attention necessary. Remember these guys are doing a million things at once. It's not easy to spot a vessel and feedback it before the emp goes off. And if the emp is on the DA you've wasted a lot of resources beyond the norm. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:00 Sirris wrote: You slowly make carriers to force goliaths. Then defend the a move with mass templar. You dont need to make all your carriers at once. You balance them with your ground army. Just two carriers changes how the game works. Otherwise you have to attack them. I'd always prefer to have terran attacking into me. Balance what? Terran was ONLY in the upper side of the map. 2 carriers don't do anything. Where do you attack with carriers in this setup? It would be far more terrible than what Rain actually ended up doing. The game was already lost after the second attack on the 4th. By that point, upgraded Terran is simply impossible to stop on this map, unless you have 2-3 consecutive hallelujah attacks with perfect storms. His stalling strategy was very good for that game state. Not having banked up energy for stasis when Light has 40 tanks is the final blow. But Rain was bleeding already since that second attack on 4th. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:00 Sirris wrote: You slowly make carriers to force goliaths. Then defend the a move with mass templar. You dont need to make all your carriers at once. You balance them with your ground army. Just two carriers changes how the game works. Otherwise you have to attack them. I'd always prefer to have terran attacking into me. You can't afford to have both Carrier and "mass" Templar. It's easier said than done. You're a bit of an armchair critic here. Honestly how many games have you seen Protoss switching from Shuttle Templar play to Carrier? The result is 0. They can transition into Arbiter a bit but that's it. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
The arbiters did almost nothing for him. Just 2 carriers would've changed the army composition for Light a lot. You don't win with the carriers you win with the ground army but you make the ground army worse and give Terran more to worry about. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:06 TMNT wrote: You can't afford to have both Carrier and "mass" Templar. It's easier said than done. You're a bit of an armchair critic here. Honestly how many games have you seen Protoss switching from Shuttle Templar play to Carrier? The result is 0. They can transition into Arbiter a bit but that's it. Plus, keep in mind the map here. If Light sees some carriers popping out of nowhere when he has killed 10 HTs already he builds one round of goliaths for safety and then just A moves with his already existing 35 tanks on 3-2. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
My thought process is that once Terran has that many tanks, no protoss ground army is going to be able to trade reasonably against. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:06 TMNT wrote: You can't afford to have both Carrier and "mass" Templar. It's easier said than done. You're a bit of an armchair critic here. Honestly how many games have you seen Protoss switching from Shuttle Templar play to Carrier? The result is 0. They can transition into Arbiter a bit but that's it. Why can't they get carriers if they can get arbiters? We are all armchair critics None of us could play even close to their level. Once again...I'm not talking about carriers in the end game. I'm talking about before Rain made his first attack that failed miserably. Again I can see the map. So i don't blame Rain at all. Instead of sacking your army into the perfect Terran defense you show carriers and the move out, you defend with templars in shuttles on each highground...storm...then move back. Yes I'm armchairing but that's all I can do I simply think it was the best move Rain had. It's also an idea I had before I saw the games so it's not like I'm saying this out of no where. Light is so good at defense against everything...including drops and arbiters. It's better to make him attack earlier and pick it apart. Sure it could fail and I could be wrong. But I think it would've been a better chance. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
Rain just has a safe nexus first. Massive advantage so far for Rain. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:13 Sirris wrote: Why can't they get carriers if they can get arbiters? We are all armchair critics None of us could play even close to their level. Once again...I'm not talking about carriers in the end game. I'm talking about before Rain made his first attack that failed miserably. Again I can see the map. So i don't blame Rain at all. Instead of sacking your army into the perfect Terran defense you show carriers and the move out, you defend with templars in shuttles on each highground...storm...then move back. Yes I'm aircharming but that's all I can do I simply think it was the best move Rain had.He was making Arbiters from 1 Stargate, not 2. And yet he still lost. Even Arbiter transition from mass Shuttle HT play was not that good. Game's gone from Rain after Light took his 4th. He was behind from the opening which is something the pros also said. Hence his only viable strat is Shuttle Templar (not any late tech). You're too confident with your opinion. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:13 Sirris wrote: Why can't they get carriers if they can get arbiters? We are all armchair critics None of us could play even close to their level. Once again...I'm not talking about carriers in the end game. I'm talking about before Rain made his first attack that failed miserably. Again I can see the map. So i don't blame Rain at all. Instead of sacking your army into the perfect Terran defense you show carriers and the move out, you defend with templars in shuttles on each highground...storm...then move back. Yes I'm aircharming but that's all I can do I simply think it was the best move Rain had. It's also an idea I had before I saw the games so it's not like I'm saying this out of no where. Light is so good at defense against everything...including drops and arbiters. It's better to make him attack earlier and pick it apart. Sure it could fail and I could be wrong. But I think it would've been a better chance.All of your theories somehow ignore the fact that Light scans constantly and always will know the exact timing of carriers and what he has to do to defend. Rain was NEVER at an eco-advantage that game which make that kind of strat viable. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:22 Sirris wrote: Jesus christ Rain I mean I had no hopes on Allegro. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
He's locked in an seems to be very defensive against Rain since I think he believes he can crush him late-game in his sleep. Rain's strategies are not good for the type of player Light is. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
edit: actually, thats being a bit facetious... rains aggression just isn't working | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
That's true. It was basically an all in. But still so ugly to see. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:25 Sirris wrote: That's true. It was basically an all in. But still so ugly to see. but also I don't care because light won. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
I love Light don't get me wrong. Part of the reason I voted for Rain so I could be happy either way I just want it to go 4-3 and be an awesome series. I don't wanna see games like that haha. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome but that's always a possibility on other 4p maps as well. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:28 oxKnu wrote: I completely disagree with what Scan is saying. Revolver is a perfectly fine map for Terran. Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome. What? Look at the base layout man. It's so hard to take bases for T compared to other maps. You're just wrong sorry. Scan is correct. Beyond that the nexus is on the high ground. Lets see if Light can nail this RIGHT NOW HYPE | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:30 Sirris wrote: What? Look at the base layout man. It's so hard to take bases for T compared to other maps. You're just wrong sorry. Scan is correct. Now that the I see the spawn locations and openings I am very confident Light will win this game. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:31 oxKnu wrote: Now that the I see the spawn locations and openings I am very confident Light will win this game. Clearly I was talking about the long game...not this crazy opening | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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lamarine
586 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
whatever | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
He started doing things he never did such as becoming team leader, collaborating with other streamers, letting people joke about him and not getting butthurt, and doing wacky things for entertainment such as jumping into a river while its freezing. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:28 oxKnu wrote: I completely disagree with what Scan is saying. Revolver is a perfectly fine map for Terran. Only some spawn configurations + scout timings can be troublesome but that's always a possibility on other 4p maps as well. Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act. I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:36 M3t4PhYzX wrote: *sigh* whatever my thoughts exactly Rain got too greedy... | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
I mean, Light would've won anyway but these maps are just Protoss graveyards. Even Eclipse, since it's so known and played out Terran has the perfect response for everything P can do. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:37 TMNT wrote: Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act. I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in. Personally I think you're full of shit. You're picking moments in your mind that support your theory and ignoring all the others. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:37 TMNT wrote: Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act. I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in. while i agree with the T bias, artosis has been like that for years with protoss with far worse game knowledge edit: meant tasteless | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
I have no problems with disagreeing with what TMNT says but don't antagonize. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
Ok sorry about that. Calling someone a disgrace isn't antagonizing though? hmm... What I essentially said is I find your facts highly suspect. I just chose the wrong language. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:37 TMNT wrote: Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act. I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in. I've enjoyed Scans cast this entire season and right after your post, he said "the next map is bad for protoss".... | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
He has tremendous in-game adjustments but his series strategy is awful here. You have to know you are behind on these maps against a guy like Light and make it things weird. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
I was stating facts. Lots of people have that same impression after his JYJ vs Bisu cast. Go on reddit or youtube and see. What's with the dick response though? Did I insult you? | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:41 Sirris wrote: Ok sorry about that. Calling someone a disgrace isn't antagonizing though? hmm... What I essentially said is I find your facts highly suspect. I just chose the wrong language. he called his "biased casting" a disgrace, strong words they were but he elaborated on the point. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:43 TMNT wrote: I was stating facts. Lots of people have that same impression after his JYJ vs Bisu cast. Go on reddit or youtube and see. What's with the dick response though? Did I insult you? I just think you're wrong. Simple as that. I think Scan provides very high level analysis as a ASL RO 24 player. He might have more insight than you and I. I think he is just telling the truth he sees honestly based on his extremely high level. You might not agree but that doesn't mean you're correct. He knows Broodwar very well. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:48 Motivate wrote: so good to see a big(ish) crowd as big as they were allowed to have. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Although, that might be different now, I don't know. I haven't heard an Artosis cast in 2 years. | ||
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:37 TMNT wrote: Scan has been a disgrace this season with his Terran bias. It's like, he's literally appreciating Terran all game, blaming the map which are supposed to be a balanced and saying nothing about the maps which areclearly Terran favored. Feels bad for Nyoken trying to balance the act. I no longer watch Starcast TV stream anymore. Even Artosis the whiner has been professional in his casting and doesn't let his bias slip in. idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
He build a pylon. I don't think that's good. A battery doesn't change anything. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
Rain will do much better this time. He will know he's being attacked. He will cut probes and defend. Scan is right he might siege rush. But rain can counter with DT..which he can't so nevermind lol. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Interesting.. Rain has a decent chance to defend this.. If it's a fake, he's royally fucked though. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:47 Sirris wrote: I just think you're wrong. Simple as that. I think Scan provides very high level analysis as a ASL RO 24 player. He might have more insight than you and I. I think he is just telling the truth he sees honestly based on his extremely high level. You might not agree but that doesn't mean you're correct. He knows Broodwar very well. He literally said "the map is wrong" after JYJ lost to Bisu's Carriers on Metaverse. If that's the case every map is wrong for Terran lol. There was a small debate on TL by someone, after he said 12 Nexus was dirty or something. I think you were involved in that debate as well. He just doesn't hide his enthusiasm/bias towards Terran, unlike Artosis who everyone knows hate Protoss so much but doesn't let it slip into his cast. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
Okay maybe with the 3-0 lead Light wants to show off a little bit. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Now Light going full berserk. Hey, at least these openings are entertaining. | ||
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staatbauhaus
99 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
-_- | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
NO FILLER LIGHT IS YOUR CHAMPION | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
GG | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Poll: Recommend Light vs Rain Set 4? Yes (25) No (7) If you have time (0) 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Light vs Rain Set 4? | ||
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
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Katkishka
United States649 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
I still believe that Rain's overall preparation/strategy for these maps and the series overall was awful. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
I like seeing Light as a champ waaaaay more. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:03 Timebon3s wrote: This was a shitty finale and I dont reccommend watching it at all first game is worth watching rest are just rushes against nexus first lmao good textbook references for terran i guess | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:03 Timebon3s wrote: This was a shitty finale and I dont reccommend watching it at all Personally I don't really mind that much if was a one sided 4-0, as long as we see high level play from both players. Good moments from the first game at least. 4th game too at certain points. | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:02 Sirris wrote: Never been more wrong. But so happy for Light GGI feel the same. I thought Rain was coming into this the easy favorite, but Light was just better overall. Wanted Light to win it too, glad he pulled it off. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
6 Terran 4 Zerg 3 Protoss | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/306265950007590914/962308779565809684/unknown.png?width=884&height=497) ![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/306265950007590914/962309345121558619/unknown.png?width=884&height=497) ![[image loading]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/306265950007590914/962309641679822858/unknown.png?width=884&height=497) | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
I think Rain used all his luck with 12 Nexus and scouting versus Soma, that every opening today went awful for him. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
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ERSJ
Sweden57 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 19:50 Ikirouta wrote: idk why you complain, just don't watch it if you don't like it, why do you also have to cry about it lmao I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao. As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it. Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
check drone's preview https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/590155-bsl14-ro4-preview | ||
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: some people want good games, not me I like seeing Light as a champ waaaaay more. Preach! So happy for Light. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:21 TMNT wrote: I literally said I no longer watch StarcastTV anymore lmao. As for crying, I just stated my opinion about his cast when someone brought up a somewhat relevant info. That's literally what everyone's doing on the internet. Crying would be me making a new thread about it. Likewise I can say if you don't like my post dont read or dont reply. Why cry? See how ridiculous your response now? Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Congrats, Light! Just caught parts of the finals (had a bad feeling somehow and went out). All things considered, best player won. Would've been rather poor taste if someone coming back from a long sabbatical won ASL straight away. Hope Rain sticks around and comes back even stronger! He's still the MVP this season for me with all the epic games! | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. Don't worry about that nonsense man. You're doing a great job. You're literally much better at the game than anyone here. Don't let it bother you. Almost all of the people here appreciate the knowledge you bring to the cast. There will always be haters. Just do what you do | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. Well it's only 1 person saying these things, please focus on the rest of us that are very greatfull for the amount of work you put in :D Keep up the good work and dont let the haters get to you Much love <3 | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Even when some of the games were just pure duds. Like some today. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:22 BLinD-RawR wrote: I never do this but since BSL semis are today check drone's preview https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/590155-bsl14-ro4-preview I never do this either. But drone did an amazing job breaking these match ups down. Wish I would've read them before I voted on Liquibet Oh wait I made the same choices anyways ...lucky me Seriously pure luck. Just like most of my BSL choices, being only a little bit familiar with the players and their games. I did know Dewalt and Mihu though I'll admit, but nothing more than they are fantastic foreign players and Mihu won last season. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
Didn't expect such a clean sweep, I thought Light would win but not like that. Big win for him, he worked hard for it and he deserved it Rain got a taste of what it feels like running into a superior opponent. I hope this doesn't discourage him, but rather motivates him to try again next season. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 09 2022 21:11 Sirris wrote: I never do this either. But drone did an amazing job breaking these match ups down. Wish I would've read them before I voted on Liquibet Oh wait I made the same choices anyways ...lucky me Seriously pure luck. Just like most of my BSL choices, being only a little bit familiar with the players and their games. I did know Dewalt and Mihu though I'll admit, but nothing more than they are fantastic foreign players and Mihu won last season.we need more responses in that thread. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
Good point. Also Drone once again did do a REALLY good job at the break down even if you aren't familiar with the top foreign players. I encourage people to take a look. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:19 Ikirouta wrote: Thanks to Scan + Nyoken for another great season of casting! I agree I really hope they keep doing it. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. Dude you're literraly showing your bias in this post. Did JYJ's hidden Starport not get spotted immediately? Did his army not sync up during that push? Nothing wrong? Even Artosis and Nyoken acknowledged it but you kept whining about the map. And did you just argue that in your book, the map has to support a Terran push "easily" for it to be considered "not wrong" lol? As if a map favoring Terran is fine and a map not favoring Terran (aka balanced) is wrong lol. The high and low grounds work for and against both races depending on the situation. It's not like only Terran has a problem with it. Also, where were your "the map is wrong" comment for Protoss on Monopoly? Where were you when Protoss "did nothing wrong" and died to a 3H Hydra? If there wasn't a problem with your Terran bias in that cast, there wouldn't be a series of comments from viewers from reddit and youtube, so much that Starcast TV has to pin your explanation on youtube. It's not only me. There are others who recognize it too. And we didn't have a problem with Nyoken either. Your cast is generally great. I appreciate what you guys are doing for the community. But that doesn't make you immune to criticism. I suggest you listen to yourself first and improve your cast, instead of retaliating by saying everyone has to like your work no matter what otherwise they're killing the community, which is an absurd and condescending statement. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
that was absolutely terrible | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
And by the way, where are all those, who blabbered about that Rain should have won KSL 4. It was certain, that Light wanted to face Rain olin finals and 4-0 illustrates why. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
Impressive, impressive play by Light. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Not good enough to comment about the maps and balance. But based on Light's TvP games against both Bisu and Rain, the current state of the matchup just seems brutal for Protoss. Protoss has to take the initiative and make all the risky moves to stop the Terran macro machine. I don't even think Light has hit the godlike peak of Flash - yet he's still owning. Probably a dirtier player like mini is the perfect foil against Terran. Or a miracle man like Jangbi who can play from behind and has the clutch factor. Rain has shown signs of mixing things up this season, so maybe he can still go up a few gears. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 09 2022 22:28 RKC wrote: Karma's a bitch. Rain got the lucky breaks in the opening against Soma, and today Lady Luck just spat in his face. Mainly watched G1 and G2. Didn't seem like Rain played that badly. Light was just better, and yes, was luckier with the map spawns and scouting. Even without lucky breaks, Light would've still won but we would've all gotten a closer series. Probably the final scoreline is rather misleading and unfair towards Rain. Not good enough to comment about the maps and balance. But based on Light's TvP games against both Bisu and Rain, the current state of the matchup just seems brutal for Protoss. Protoss has to take the initiative and make all the risky moves to stop the Terran macro machine. I don't even think Light has hit the godlike peak of Flash - yet he's still owning. Probably a dirtier player like mini is the perfect foil against Terran. Or a miracle man like Jangbi who can play from behind and has the clutch factor. Rain has shown signs of mixing things up this season, so maybe he can still go up a few gears. Its only Light thats currently bashing protoss. Other terrans are doing very poorly. Online, Rush is doing good in tvz and JyJ has okay record against toss. And the rest, well: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list | ||
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barcodejester
19 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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barcodejester
19 Posts
On April 09 2022 23:19 Shinokuki wrote: This is where rain got exposed for having been out of the scene too long. Too many casuals thought rain was the best player when he just opened with 12 nexus vs Soma 4x and got lucky. Casuals don't know how big of an advantage 12 nexus is vs zerg in upper echelons of the progaming level. Pros try everything to get ahead and that leads to victory in almost all cases. soma started going 9 pool to stop 12 nexus, i am pretty sure he only got 12 nexus in 2 games | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 23:19 Shinokuki wrote: This is where rain got exposed for having been out of the scene too long. Too many casuals thought rain was the best player when he just opened with 12 nexus vs Soma 4x and got lucky. Casuals don't know how big of an advantage 12 nexus is vs zerg in upper echelons of the progaming level. Pros try everything to get ahead and that leads to victory in almost all cases. It wasn't 4x. He went 12 Nexus first 3 games, won 2-1. Then went Forge expand last 3 games, still won 2-1. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 23:19 Shinokuki wrote: This is where rain got exposed for having been out of the scene too long. Too many casuals thought rain was the best player when he just opened with 12 nexus vs Soma 4x and got lucky. Casuals don't know how big of an advantage 12 nexus is vs zerg in upper echelons of the progaming level. Pros try everything to get ahead and that leads to victory in almost all cases. Don't think there were that many people claiming Rain to be favorite for the title against Light. Everyone that knows his history is aware that he has had major failings against Terran before in big series and that it's his weakest match-up. It was perfectly reasonable to think Rain would make it a series because of the previous games where he was able to mind-game other pros towards a victory. Today he tried to play conventional for today's meta and got blasted out of this realm. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 09 2022 23:09 barcodejester wrote: that was disappointing. in asl and kcm i see terran dominating on eclipse but all the casters being terran players they always complain about that map. thats really my only complaint about nyoken and scan they have some big blinders on Well, as a viewer you have to filter some of this stuff too. And since most casters in BW are Terran of course you will get some bias thrown in in there. And it's worth mentioning that the way pro players play these maps is different from what usually happens on ladder where Terrans indeed do get cheesed a lot on Eclipse for example. At the highest level the most you get is an eco-cheese and that's a whole different world altogether, so the margins are finer and the sole purpose is to get an eco-lead and then transition into a standard build. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
Klazart quit because he kept being flamed and parodied here. The others like diggity, moletrap etc was bad because they had no knowledge of the game. Tasteless has apparently turned to shit because he isnt as active as he once were, Artosis is bad because he doesnt have the knowledge some people think he should have, and now that we have an actual progamer commentating, thats bad too because of some "bias" people seem to think he has. All under the excuse as "constructive critisism" by people who doesnt even want to watch their casting. Its never good enough. Maby just STFU and be thankfull people like Scan and Nyoken are keeping this scene alive, and realise that your "constructive critisism" isnt wanted, and is just an excuse to stirr up some shit. Neither is this the thread for it since its the ASL finals thread, not a thread about the commentaters. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2022 22:00 whaski wrote: You should not care about comments like that. To TMwhatevernameis, It was clearly reflected within player predictions, that most of pros think these maps are terrible for tvp just as Scan argued. Or maybe you know better than Scan and Soulkey perhaps who was very vocal on his stream about maps being rigged towards protoss in pvt. Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily. The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them. Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
A complete over-haul in map design would do the current state of BW a world of good. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 10 2022 00:47 TMNT wrote: Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily. The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them. Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say. So what? Scan has right to have his opinnion as much as Best and Mini. You can watch and translate what Mini said during Bisu vs Light or Rain that matter. And are you serious, no terran pro predicted that Light would win. And while it is not certain, those players practiced with Rain and got trashed. Korean community was certain that Rain would win. Yeah surely you know better than them how this game works hahaha. And for that, everyone was bashing Light when he switched to protoss and kept losing and losing. Surely he has not evolved as a player but maps are tesagi, terran is tesagi and protoss "is at disadvantage" shees. Edit, I am just so tired of this crap, same thing when Last sweeped Jaedong, "maps are tesagi, casters terran biased, terran imba" blah blah. Its just so great, when zerg beats protoss on map like lunar colony or when terran loses on third world. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 01:52 whaski wrote: So what? Scan has right to have his opinnion as much as Best and Mini. You can watch and translate what Mini said during Bisu vs Light or Rain that matter. And are you serious, no terran pro predicted that Light would win. And while it is not certain, those players practiced with Rain and got trashed. Korean community was certain that Rain would win. Yeah surely you know better than them how this game works hahaha. And for that, everyone was bashing Light when he switched to protoss and kept losing and losing. Surely he has not evolved as a player but maps are tesagi, terran is tesagi and protoss "is at disadvantage" shees. Edit, I am just so tired of this crap, same thing when Last sweeped Jaedong, "maps are tesagi, casters terran biased, terran imba" blah blah. Its just so great, when zerg beats protoss on map like lunar colony or when terran loses on third world. Lmao who said anything about Light or Rain or Tesagi that you had to bring that up. You must be very insecure about Terran-related matters huh? Even I myself always said Light is the best player skillwise. And I don't know how you got that weird idea of players prediction being fully indicative of map balance. So, nothing to do with luck, form and the players themselves eh? Nothing to do with the Koreans believing in the champion pedigree of Rain especially after the semi (just like they were believing in Soma before that), and Light's tendency to underperform? No it has to be about maps lol. But let's not bring the topic too far. The original matter is about Scan's bias in commentary. Go see the JYJ vs Bisu vods on youtube and see how many people also share my impression, that Scan himself had to give an explanation. If you want to dispute that, try to analyze how JYJ "did nothing wrong" and "the map is wrong" in that game. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
On April 10 2022 02:38 TMNT wrote: Lmao who said anything about Light or Rain or Tesagi that you had to bring that up. You must be very insecure about Terran-related matters huh? Even I myself always said Light is the best player skillwise. And I don't know how you got that weird idea of players prediction being fully indicative of map balance. So, nothing to do with luck, form and the players themselves eh? Nothing to do with the Koreans believing in the champion pedigree of Rain especially after the semi (just like they were believing in Soma before that), and Light's tendency to underperform? No it has to be about maps lol. But let's not bring the topic too far. The original matter is about Scan's bias in commentary. Go see the JYJ vs Bisu vods on youtube and see how many people also share my impression, that Scan himself had to give an explanation. If you want to dispute that, try to analyze how JYJ "did nothing wrong" and "the map is wrong" in that game. Scan is a terran player. What is wrong with the biase? He also happened to be extremely skilled (pro lvl) And proly faces many problems with that specific map.He speak koreans so im sure he got the same feedback from others.That is his opinion ofc.I dont see nothing wrong with it.If you disagree you are free to show stats or some way to explain why you dont agree with that. Instead you are acting like a weirdo and btching about his cast cuz of one specific game ? I still respect you dont like his cast. But the btching is not needed. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
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Lazyer
United States343 Posts
This was a fun and great ASL overall. Return of Jaedong/Rain/Bisu, A few super tight Ro8 series, good semis and balance of races. Crazy to think all 4 seeds didn't make it to re-seeding. The finals having an in-person crowd was awesome to see too (even selling out within minutes according to Scan). My personal highlights this season were Soulkey vs Mong on Vermeer (Ro24 Group F), Rain vs Soulkey in Ro8, and JYJ vs Bisu vs in Ro8. I really appreciate the high level insight Scan and Nyoken bring to ASL. It's really allowed me to enjoy the casts on another level <3 You two (and the StarcastTV team) really stepped up when it seemed like ASL English cast was going away and definitely raised my expectations of casting! | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 02:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Scan is a terran player. What is wrong with the biase? He also happened to be extremely skilled (pro lvl) And proly faces many problems with that specific map.He speak koreans so im sure he got the same feedback from others.That is his opinion ofc.I dont see nothing wrong with it.If you disagree you are free to show stats or some way to explain why you dont agree with that. Instead you are acting like a weirdo and btching about his cast cuz of one specific game ? I still respect you dont like his cast. But the btching is not needed. I made one post calling his cast a disgrace this season, after someone said he disagreed with Scan about Revolver. The rest are just responses after people and himself jumped into the debate and quoted myself directly . You can argue that the word "disgrace" too strong, but nothing about my behavior suggests its bitching like a weirdo. What does it take to not be a weirdo these days? Not replying to people calling for you at all? About what's wrong with the bias. Not as a player or a streamer, but shouldn't a caster be impartial? Notice how I also kinda complimented Nyoken and Artosis, who are also Terran players, on that aspect? And it's not because of one specific game, it just happens that that game is such a prime example. It's hard to respect his cast after a game where the winner (Bisu) was actually the one who did nothing wrong (or did more right things than the loser), but he spent all his time blaming the map, | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 10 2022 02:38 TMNT wrote: Lmao who said anything about Light or Rain or Tesagi that you had to bring that up. You must be very insecure about Terran-related matters huh? Even I myself always said Light is the best player skillwise. And I don't know how you got that weird idea of players prediction being fully indicative of map balance. So, nothing to do with luck, form and the players themselves eh? Nothing to do with the Koreans believing in the champion pedigree of Rain especially after the semi (just like they were believing in Soma before that), and Light's tendency to underperform? No it has to be about maps lol. But let's not bring the topic too far. The original matter is about Scan's bias in commentary. Go see the JYJ vs Bisu vods on youtube and see how many people also share my impression, that Scan himself had to give an explanation. If you want to dispute that, try to analyze how JYJ "did nothing wrong" and "the map is wrong" in that game. No, I meant that Scan is maybe biased about maps, but not anymore than other koreans. It has been mentioned multiple times in multiple streams, that this season PvT seems to be heavily in favor of protoss, even if results speak otherwise. You can dive deeper if you want, but what Scan casts is very much alligned with what korean community thinks. If you don't like his casting fine, but disregarding ASL player and his cast as "biased" and "disgrace" is not. | ||
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
Even though I main Protoss, I couldn't root for the guy that's been away for 4 seasons. Light must be feeling at the top of the world right now, just got married and won ASL 4-0. I'm calling it now, this guy's gonna be a father 9 months from now. I personally do see a slight bias in the commentary, however it's to be expected, we're all a little biased every now and then. It isn't that bad to make it unbearable and the game knowledge Scan and Nyoken bring to the cast is so good I feel like I'm improving in the game just by watching. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
I think we need some dirty protoss like Mini to stop him, you just can't straight up win vs. this monster. GG Light! You deserved it. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 03:50 whaski wrote: No, I meant that Scan is maybe biased about maps, but not anymore than other koreans. It has been mentioned multiple times in multiple streams, that this season PvT seems to be heavily in favor of protoss, even if results speak otherwise. You can dive deeper if you want, but what Scan casts is very much alligned with what korean community thinks. If you don't like his casting fine, but disregarding ASL player and his cast as "biased" and "disgrace" is not. You need to start constructing your own arguments with data and facts instead of appealing to a vague authority (the Korean community) that no one can verify the actual saying, the consensus, or the context. Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse? Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
Congrats to Light, he's really really good in tvp. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 10 2022 05:02 TMNT wrote: You need to start constructing your own arguments with data and facts instead of appealing to a vague authority (the Korean community) that no one can verify the actual saying, the consensus, or the context. Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse? Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves. Wdym, I didn't analyse maps or players because unlike apparently you, I don't understand pro players take on how maps are played. If someone here understands these matters its Scan. But whatever, I agree with you, Metaverse and specially monopoly + allegro are shit maps that should go in to same hole as bloom and thrid world. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
As for Scan's casting, I actually think he did a decent job not being too biased, I find it natural that he would talk more about terran related things rather than protoss/zerg, and have a deeper understanding of the maps and meta from a terran point of view. I personally also enjoyed having a caster that was capable of translating both interviews and other random tidbits live, which can be quite difficult to do. Nyoken's casting was thoroughly enjoyable as always. Although I do think insinuating that anyone that happens to dislike their casting or any aspect thereof is guilty of destroying/ruining the entire sc scene simply because they don't get paid for doing it, is a bit over the top. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On April 10 2022 00:47 TMNT wrote: Yeah? So rigged that the PvT win rate on Allegro and Vermeer are 44.6 and 39.2%? That the go-to maps for Protoss to pick, Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%? Not so P favored eh? I'm surprised that Monopoly is 47.3% though, but maybe that's because not many PvT on that map go to late game. Only maps which are statiscally positive for Protoss are Butter (50.5%) and Metaverse (52.5%) but with small sample size those small margins can swing the opposite way easily. The reality is the so-called Protoss maps are somewhat balanced or even slightly Terran favored, while the maps that Terrans pick are just hugely in favor of them. Also let's not play the appeal to authority fallacy card here because if that's the case I'm sure Best and Mini may have something to say. And did you just argue that in your book, the map has to support a Terran push "easily" for it to be considered "not wrong" lol? As if a map favoring Terran is fine and a map not favoring Terran (aka balanced) is wrong lol. The high and low grounds work for and against both races depending on the situation. It's not like only Terran has a problem with it. Also, where were your "the map is wrong" comment for Protoss on Monopoly? Where were you when Protoss "did nothing wrong" and died to a 3H Hydra? What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up. I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny. This is the real map data if you want to talk about. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yROlchp.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gaW1oOY.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dPQaiX6.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YpbAuyR.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zKEHBG4.jpg) And this is bisu's interview after the match. This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0RdYf18.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3R7tTKD.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/r0SNFpQ.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7YEUM2O.jpg) Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there. And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games. Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers. Here's a shocking result online record that I'm going to show for you. Protoss side TOP5 Rain's PvT Eclipse 14-3 / Butter 9-1 / Metaverse 6-4 / Revolver 5-2 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 3-4 / Vermeer 9-10 SnOw's PvT Eclipse 49-17 / Butter 4-7 / Metaverse 15-5 / Revolver 35-13 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 21-9 / Vermeer 8-10 Best's PvT Eclipse 59-33 / Butter 7-7 / Metaverse 6-7 / Revolver 32-22 / Monopoly 3-4 / Allegro 20-12 / Vermeer 9-8 Mini's PvT Eclipse 54-28 / Butter 7-5 / Metaverse 12-11 / Revolver 34-24 / Monopoly 9-5 / Allegro 13-13 / Vermeer 14-11 Bisu's PvT Eclipse 19-12 / Butter 9-6 / Metaverse 11-2 / Revolver 9-9 / Monopoly 10-11 / Allegro 11-16 / Vermeer 11-11 Terran side TOP4 Light's TvP Eclipse 42-27 / Butter 8-5 / Metaverse 7-4 / Revolver 22-16 / Monopoly 3-5 / Allegro 14-9 / Vermeer 15-2 Rush's TvP Eclipse 61-50 / Butter 8-11 / Metaverse 12-16 / Revolver 36-30 / Monopoly 16-4 / Allegro 17-13 / Vermeer 16-10 RoyaL's TvP Eclipse 62-52 / Butter 8-7 / Metaverse 14-13 / Revolver 37-31 / Monopoly 14-13 / Allegro 16-16 / Vermeer 18-13 JyJ's TvP Eclipse 33-29 / Butter 5-3 / Metaverse 5-7 / Revolver 15-21 / Monopoly 8-5 / Allegro 15-11 / Vermeer 7-3 Overall PvT Eclipse 577-604(48.9%) / Butter 54-54(50.0%) / Metaverse 62-57(52.1%) / Revolver 209-236(47.0%) / Monopoly 52-59(46.8%) / Allegro 112-139(44.6%) / Vermeer 71-113(38.6%) Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1952 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 09:25 LaStScan wrote: What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up. I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny. This is the real map data if you want to talk about. + Show Spoiler + And this is bisu's interview after the match. https://youtu.be/76zZ5sFpmrI?t=7318 This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals. + Show Spoiler + Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there. And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games. Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers. Here's a shocking result online record that I'm going to show for you. Protoss side TOP5 Rain's PvT Eclipse 14-3 / Butter 9-1 / Metaverse 6-4 / Revolver 5-2 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 3-4 / Vermeer 9-10 SnOw's PvT Eclipse 49-17 / Butter 4-7 / Metaverse 15-5 / Revolver 35-13 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 21-9 / Vermeer 8-10 Best's PvT Eclipse 59-33 / Butter 7-7 / Metaverse 6-7 / Revolver 32-22 / Monopoly 3-4 / Allegro 20-12 / Vermeer 9-8 Mini's PvT Eclipse 54-28 / Butter 7-5 / Metaverse 12-11 / Revolver 34-24 / Monopoly 9-5 / Allegro 13-13 / Vermeer 14-11 Bisu's PvT Eclipse 19-12 / Butter 9-6 / Metaverse 11-2 / Revolver 9-9 / Monopoly 10-11 / Allegro 11-16 / Vermeer 11-11 Terran side TOP4 Light's TvP Eclipse 42-27 / Butter 8-5 / Metaverse 7-4 / Revolver 22-16 / Monopoly 3-5 / Allegro 14-9 / Vermeer 15-2 Rush's TvP Eclipse 61-50 / Butter 8-11 / Metaverse 12-16 / Revolver 36-30 / Monopoly 16-4 / Allegro 17-13 / Vermeer 16-10 RoyaL's TvP Eclipse 62-52 / Butter 8-7 / Metaverse 14-13 / Revolver 37-31 / Monopoly 14-13 / Allegro 16-16 / Vermeer 18-13 JyJ's TvP Eclipse 33-29 / Butter 5-3 / Metaverse 5-7 / Revolver 15-21 / Monopoly 8-5 / Allegro 15-11 / Vermeer 7-3 Overall PvT Eclipse 577-604(48.9%) / Butter 54-54(50.0%) / Metaverse 62-57(52.1%) / Revolver 209-236(47.0%) / Monopoly 52-59(46.8%) / Allegro 112-139(44.6%) / Vermeer 71-113(38.6%) Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool. Ah yes, the condescending method . Citing some obvious knowledge like "Terrans don't like 2p maps" and "Light is good" and pretend that the other doesn't know it, hence gaining some virtual ground, while literally avoiding the main point of the debate. Let me remind you the matter in discussion is that you blamed the map (Metaverse), saying "the map is wrong" and "JYJ did nothing wrong" for his lost against Bisu. While in fact, JYJ did make some mistakes, like getting his hidden Starport spotted immediately, or pushing at the wrong timing and with the army not synced up. Let me remind you again that while you cite the high and low grounds of Metaverse as being disadvantageous to Terran, the fight where JYJ lost the game vs Bisu happened when his army already took the high ground and Bisu was the one attacking from the low ground. So even if Metaverse actually favored Protoss, it's not even the reason JYJ lost. And I'm only discussing the objective facts that you failed there. I'm not even discussing stuff like the non-existent appreciation for Protoss in that series, which can be subjective to viewers and can be partly understood as you're a Terran player. Of course 12 Nexus cross spawn is a very strong build and Bisu got lucky with both spawn and scout in that game. Everyone knows it. Bisu knows it. What's the point of citing his interview then? Did he say he won that game because the map is wrong for Terrans? No. | ||
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
Cope and seethe more Protoss. In fact, I believe Protoss players should never be allowed to say anything related to balance because of the existence of 12 nex, gas steal, 1gate zealot pressure, proxy everything, reavers. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
The casters are really doing a good job. But I do sometimes feel a lack of objective perspective may leave gaps in a casual viewer's understanding of current game meta and balance (like myself) and risks formenting a 'toxic' environment among fans (as glimpses from this thread has shown). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for a Terran win from a player other than God himself. A good spread of wins between the races is good for the sustainibility of the game. Maybe next season more people can get into the casting scene? I liked BisuDagger's cast while it lasted. Maybe Scan and Nyoken can have some guest casters once in a while? | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
Nonetheless looking at the record, Snow's PvT is monstrous...... | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 10 2022 09:25 LaStScan wrote: Overall PvT Eclipse 577-604(48.9%) / Butter 54-54(50.0%) / Metaverse 62-57(52.1%) / Revolver 209-236(47.0%) / Monopoly 52-59(46.8%) / Allegro 112-139(44.6%) / Vermeer 71-113(38.6%) Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool. I have a hard time understanding your statement here. Is the logic as follows? -> There aren't many Terrans -> Therefore Light's games are a large proportion of Terran games -> Therefore overall Terran stats are skewed in the direction of Light's stats -> Light is crazy good -> Light is masking certain imbalances (e.g., Metaverse), causing maps that aren't truly balanced to look balanced | ||
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barcodejester
19 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On April 10 2022 11:05 TMNT wrote: Ah yes, the condescending method . Citing some obvious knowledge like "Terrans don't like 2p maps" and "Light is good" and pretend that the other doesn't know it, hence gaining some virtual ground, while literally avoiding the main point of the debate. Let me remind you the matter in discussion is that you blamed the map (Metaverse), saying "the map is wrong" and "JYJ did nothing wrong" for his lost against Bisu. While in fact, JYJ did make some mistakes, like getting his hidden Starport spotted immediately, or pushing at the wrong timing and with the army not synced up. Let me remind you again that while you cite the high and low grounds of Metaverse as being disadvantageous to Terran, the fight where JYJ lost the game vs Bisu happened when his army already took the high ground and Bisu was the one attacking from the low ground. So even if Metaverse actually favored Protoss, it's not even the reason JYJ lost. And I'm only discussing the objective facts that you failed there. I'm not even discussing stuff like the non-existent appreciation for Protoss in that series, which can be subjective to viewers and can be partly understood as you're a Terran player. Of course 12 Nexus cross spawn is a very strong build and Bisu got lucky with both spawn and scout in that game. Everyone knows it. Bisu knows it. What's the point of citing his interview then? Did he say he won that game because the map is wrong for Terrans? No. ok since you pointed out "main point of the debate" I'll explain about my side and talk something more of your earlier comment 1) Scan saying "map is wrong, JyJ did nothing wrong" Maybe I should've said differently with the word of choice. First, Metaverse is a conceptual map. I was saying map is wrong as a map was not on his side for JyJ to counter NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE 12 nexus carrier build. I wanted to say DIFFERENT map like a regular standard 4 player map may help for JyJ to fight back vs cross spawn 12 nexus carrier. I already pointed out in the earlier post that bisu made 0 mistake + JyJ's build sync up well for protoss victory. So I'll admit "map is wrong" for my fault since I chose wrong word + badly described. But JyJ did nothing wrong is true. If I have to pick on something, then it would be JyJ not syncing up his army correctly + not waiting for 2/1 upgrade before the huge fight. Also, hidden starport getting spotted doesn't matter for his build. His main goal is 2/1 upgrade and hide his information as much as possible. And like I said, I don't root for anyone in ASL cast. I'm not biased for terran. I also wanted to see full 7 games of ASL Finals. 2) Earlier of your post, you were saying about the stats "Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%" You stopped commenting about this part when I made the next post. You were saying these maps are not so favored for protoss and pointing out the winrate. Do you really think so? Every single protoss player knows the longer the duration of the game it is with pure gateway unit and early to mid stage of the game is super hard for terran to keep up. IDK the reason behind, but I can assume protoss players heavily practicing on speed shuttle mass gateway style to warm up for their regular maps TvP because they can't simply play on 2 player maps every time. Whenever protoss player is desperate with the victory, they will choose carrier build no matter what. 3) I honestly don't understand this part + Show Spoiler + Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse? Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves. then what maps terran should play? Terran can't just only play 4 player maps. Protoss can't just only play 2 player maps. ASL organizer and ASL players already share their thoughts to make the negotiation like current mappool. some conceptual maps + some standard maps. 4) Bisu's interview The point of bisu's interview was he's agreeing on his 5th game was lucky. fate was on his side. Every small detail built up for the victory with 0 mistakes. I'm not saying Bisu won the game because "the map is wrong" I'm saying JyJ might have given the better shot on other 4 player maps. Just pretty much repeating from #1 at the above. Not sure what's with the 12 nexus hate. Is it really that cheesy or abusive? From what I understand (and as experts as Scan and Nyoken always stress), Protoss needs to be way ahead in supply and econ to cope with Terran's upgrade and Zerg's tech. What is the standard build for Protoss then? There are many openings protoss can start the lead off. Best one would be gas steal into somewhat fast expansion like nexus/1 zealot expo. Terran players don't use rax expo commonly because the early scout from protoss + zealot aggression most of the time which it makes rax expo feel worse than ever. It is matter of the mind games of these rax expo vs 1 base opening protoss OR 1 base opening terran vs 12 nexus OR 1 base opening terran vs 1 base opening protoss. It is very common nowadays protoss often do early probe scout which eliminate terran's possibility not going for rax expo that often. Probably like 2 of out 10 games or so. Protoss 12 nexus opening is a different story than rax expo. Rax expo vs early probe scout for terran would be feeling like disadvantage opening most of the time since there are no early units + have to think various protoss early builds. 12 nexus has huge power with eco boost in early stage if there is no harassment/cheese. It literally forces terran to play turtle style vs heavy macro gateway style. If protoss does carrier, terran has to get up from the bed and go for the attack. because of the early eco boost with the 12 nexus, it makes carrier much more stronger than standard 1 base opening expo carrier build. I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased. | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
Very well played from Light. It really looked like Rain wasn't prepared for all the early timing pushes Light did in this series. He also played it very smart by playing Standard on a map that's fairly easy for Terran to split (If Terran gets safely through the early game, that is). For the Scan bias thing, I really only saw this in the Ro24 for the Soulkey vs Mong game and that's a single game, so can we really complain? However, I haven't watched the 3rd place match yet so I can't comment on that but overall I've really enjoyed the Scan/Nyoken casts. Edit: Disregard the last part of my message since it's PvZ anyway. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oIXUGIv.jpg) | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 10 2022 15:37 LaStScan wrote: ok since you pointed out "main point of the debate" I'll explain about my side and talk something more of your earlier comment 1) Scan saying "map is wrong, JyJ did nothing wrong" Maybe I should've said differently with the word of choice. First, Metaverse is a conceptual map. I was saying map is wrong as a map was not on his side for JyJ to counter NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE 12 nexus carrier build. I wanted to say DIFFERENT map like a regular standard 4 player map may help for JyJ to fight back vs cross spawn 12 nexus carrier. I already pointed out in the earlier post that bisu made 0 mistake + JyJ's build sync up well for protoss victory. So I'll admit "map is wrong" for my fault since I chose wrong word + badly described. But JyJ did nothing wrong is true. If I have to pick on something, then it would be JyJ not syncing up his army correctly + not waiting for 2/1 upgrade before the huge fight. Also, hidden starport getting spotted doesn't matter for his build. His main goal is 2/1 upgrade and hide his information as much as possible. And like I said, I don't root for anyone in ASL cast. I'm not biased for terran. I also wanted to see full 7 games of ASL Finals. 2) Earlier of your post, you were saying about the stats "Eclipse and Revolver, have 48.7 and 47%" You stopped commenting about this part when I made the next post. You were saying these maps are not so favored for protoss and pointing out the winrate. Do you really think so? Every single protoss player knows the longer the duration of the game it is with pure gateway unit and early to mid stage of the game is super hard for terran to keep up. IDK the reason behind, but I can assume protoss players heavily practicing on speed shuttle mass gateway style to warm up for their regular maps TvP because they can't simply play on 2 player maps every time. Whenever protoss player is desperate with the victory, they will choose carrier build no matter what. 3) I honestly don't understand this part + Show Spoiler + Maps this season "heavily" in favor of Protoss, yeah? Is that why Light and JYJ always picked the 3 new maps: Allegro, Vermeer, Monopoly? Is that why Bisu and Rain always picked the old maps in Eclipse and Revolver (keep in mind that P doesn't even hold a positive record on those maps), plus the other 2p map Butter. Is that why all Protoss in this tournament either banned Monopoly or Metaverse? Come on. Think about it. If Metaverse (or any of Allegro, Vermeer & Monopoly) "heavily" favors P, why wouldn't they pick it to give an advantage to themselves. then what maps terran should play? Terran can't just only play 4 player maps. Protoss can't just only play 2 player maps. ASL organizer and ASL players already share their thoughts to make the negotiation like current mappool. some conceptual maps + some standard maps. 4) Bisu's interview The point of bisu's interview was he's agreeing on his 5th game was lucky. fate was on his side. Every small detail built up for the victory with 0 mistakes. I'm not saying Bisu won the game because "the map is wrong" I'm saying JyJ might have given the better shot on other 4 player maps. Just pretty much repeating from #1 at the above. There are many openings protoss can start the lead off. Best one would be gas steal into somewhat fast expansion like nexus/1 zealot expo. Terran players don't use rax expo commonly because the early scout from protoss + zealot aggression most of the time which it makes rax expo feel worse than ever. It is matter of the mind games of these rax expo vs 1 base opening protoss OR 1 base opening terran vs 12 nexus OR 1 base opening terran vs 1 base opening protoss. It is very common nowadays protoss often do early probe scout which eliminate terran's possibility not going for rax expo that often. Probably like 2 of out 10 games or so. Protoss 12 nexus opening is a different story than rax expo. Rax expo vs early probe scout for terran would be feeling like disadvantage opening most of the time since there are no early units + have to think various protoss early builds. 12 nexus has huge power with eco boost in early stage if there is no harassment/cheese. It literally forces terran to play turtle style vs heavy macro gateway style. If protoss does carrier, terran has to get up from the bed and go for the attack. because of the early eco boost with the 12 nexus, it makes carrier much more stronger than standard 1 base opening expo carrier build. I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased. Yes, Protoss has a few different openers. 12 nexus is just one option - greedy, and can be punished (as we saw in the finals). Isn't gas steal only viable if Protoss get an early scout? I remember Rain (or was it someone else?) pulling it off doing the group stage - seems more abusive and annoying than 12 nexus, judging from people's reaction? So yeah, my point is that there are far worse cheesy shenanigans - gas steal, proxy gate, etc. 12 nexus gives an early econ lead but still requires Protoss to play solid and be wary of all-ins. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 10 2022 18:28 JoinTheRain wrote: Never have I thought I'd see Rain being toyed with. In all of the SC2 and in BW I've watched he's never seemed so helpless as in this series. Light totally outplayed him and the opening game was a thing of consummate beauty. The rest just rubbed more salt in the would, Light just showing off how much better he was that day. Utter domination, just astonishing, I'm in awe. Without knowing the name, you could've told me the Terran is that swindler Flash instead of Light and I would've just said "Yeah, makes sense, he's so good, untouchable even." Rain's loss to Flash in ASL8 semis was worse than this. Those maps were actually decent for Protoss. Contrary to the sentiment in this thread, Rain actually did play pretty solid in these games. There were no terrible blunders or gross mistakes. His mistakes were either strategic: inferior build for the map, victim of getting scouted first or just being too greedy overall and Light just pouncing on that. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Likewise, in the 4th game, Rain was trying to both deny reinforcements and attack from front and behind with dragoons on the advancing marines and tanks of light. Problem was after Light scanned and killed the observer, he lost too much trying to figure out where exactly were the army to best coordinate the two armies, which is an amazing level of skill. I wouldn't characterise that as Rain being toyed with, but more of fog of war and coordination of two seperate groups to attack at the same time as difficult. As well as yet again, light started with an aggressive opener which gave an advantage to Light. 2nd and 3rd game were practically build order wins. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 10 2022 20:45 oxKnu wrote: Rain's loss to Flash in ASL8 semis was worse than this. Those maps were actually decent for Protoss. Contrary to the sentiment in this thread, Rain actually did play pretty solid in these games. There were no terrible blunders or gross mistakes. His mistakes were either strategic: inferior build for the map, victim of getting scouted first or just being too greedy overall and Light just pouncing on that. I agree with this sentiment for sure. Thought it was a very nice series to watch and even though Rain was my 2nd favorite player of the tournament I'm not disappointed in his performance in the tournament at all. I'm actually incredibly impressed by his overall performance considering how long of a hiatus he took from the game. Truly one of the greats - in both Starcraft 2 and modern Brood War. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 10 2022 19:19 EquilasH wrote: Just watched the finals, and holy shit Light is a monster. It's so crazy to me how back in the KeSPA days he was pretty much used exclusively as a TvZ sniper and now his TvP looks monstrous. Very well played from Light. It really looked like Rain wasn't prepared for all the early timing pushes Light did in this series. He also played it very smart by playing Standard on a map that's fairly easy for Terran to split (If Terran gets safely through the early game, that is). For the Scan bias thing, I really only saw this in the Ro24 for the Soulkey vs Mong game and that's a single game, so can we really complain? However, I haven't watched the 3rd place match yet so I can't comment on that but overall I've really enjoyed the Scan/Nyoken casts. Edit: Disregard the last part of my message since it's PvZ anyway. Hasn't Light been wrecked by Zergs past few ASL seasons? He barely survived against Action in RO8. Sorry, just thinking out loud. I don't recall much of Light during the twilight KeSPA years. His TvZ just seems shaky. Then again, probably due to the rise of top Zergs in recent years (and even Flash also struggled before military). Who has best TvZ now? Rush? | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Light has won two major titles in the Remastered era and the main knock on him as always been his nerves in offline tournaments. The idea that Terran struggles against Zerg is pure fallacy. Flash -- Light -- .. .. Others That's the problem right there. Others are getting good but not fast enough for the large amount of Zergs out there that are already top tier. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 10 2022 22:17 RKC wrote: I also recall Light was the one who popularised the 1-1-1 and fast valks against Zerg. But Zerg seems to have figured the build out? Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it: But during Kespa Era Light used 111 I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2022 15:37 LaStScan wrote: I hope things are now clear and don't call me I'm biased. Well if you say it's just a matter of poor choice of words then the things are much simpler. Keep in mind that I have no problem with you being biased as a player but try to not show it, even inadvertently, during your cast. That's why I made the comparison with Artosis, who we both know is a million times more biased than you, but doesn't show it on his cast. Obviously it's just my opinion and there are others in this thread who disagree, but as you saw already, a lot of people on youtube also share my impression about that game so I'm not alone. Another instance I can remember is after the Light vs Bisu match, there was also an user on tl who didn't like when you used the term "dirty" to describe 12 Nexus. As for points 2 3 4 which mostly are about map balance as a whole. Although it wasn't my original point and I don't want to make a big thread about it, I'd like to say that the stats for the top 5 Protoss are skewed a bit from the overall stats because on average I'd say the top 5 Protoss players are stronger than the top 5 Terrans. Indeed, as Best and Snow alone have been monstrous in PvT for years whatever the map pool is. So single out the win rate of the top 4/5 players of each race doesn't really reflect the map balance. It's like when Flash was around and you include him in everything and suddenly Terran looked imba. Overall let's not make a big deal about this. I always really appreciate what you guys are doing for the community. Let's consider my problem with your casting like a fan feedback for you to improve and if I used the words too harsh or inappropriate, I apologize for it. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 10 2022 21:53 RKC wrote: Hasn't Light been wrecked by Zergs past few ASL seasons? He barely survived against Action in RO8. Sorry, just thinking out loud. I don't recall much of Light during the twilight KeSPA years. His TvZ just seems shaky. Then again, probably due to the rise of top Zergs in recent years (and even Flash also struggled before military). Who has best TvZ now? Rush? Light's TvZ still seems pretty good but it was definitely better during KeSPA days. Iirc he had a higher winrate than Flash at one point in TvZ (I could be wrong so someone please correct me in that case). I'm just incredibly impressed by how far his TvP has come since those days. For reference, in TvP he had 44.83% winrate and in TvZ he had 66.86% winrate during his career in the KeSPA days according to TLPD, which is just a massive difference. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 10 2022 23:13 EquilasH wrote: Light's TvZ still seems pretty good but it was definitely better during KeSPA days. Iirc he had a higher winrate than Flash at one point in TvZ (I could be wrong so someone please correct me in that case). I'm just incredibly impressed by how far his TvP has come since those days. For reference, in TvP he had 44.83% winrate and in TvZ he had 66.86% winrate during his career in the KeSPA days according to TLPD, which is just a massive difference. While Flash was around, no other terran player had a higher or equal winrate in any of the matchups. He always hovered around 70%+ in every matchup. Post-Kespa he reached 75%, briefly even 80%. Light's best matchup is TvZ and he sometimes came close to Flash's winrate with only a few % difference. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On April 10 2022 23:00 TMNT wrote: Well if you say it's just a matter of poor choice of words then the things are much simpler. Keep in mind that I have no problem with you being biased as a player but try to not show it, even inadvertently, during your cast. That's why I made the comparison with Artosis, who we both know is a million times more biased than you, but doesn't show it on his cast. Obviously it's just my opinion and there are others in this thread who disagree, but as you saw already, a lot of people on youtube also share my impression about that game so I'm not alone. Another instance I can remember is after the Light vs Bisu match, there was also an user on tl who didn't like when you used the term "dirty" to describe 12 Nexus. As for points 2 3 4 which mostly are about map balance as a whole. Although it wasn't my original point and I don't want to make a big thread about it, I'd like to say that the stats for the top 5 Protoss are skewed a bit from the overall stats because on average I'd say the top 5 Protoss players are stronger than the top 5 Terrans. Indeed, as Best and Snow alone have been monstrous in PvT for years whatever the map pool is. So single out the win rate of the top 4/5 players of each race doesn't really reflect the map balance. It's like when Flash was around and you include him in everything and suddenly Terran looked imba. Overall let's not make a big deal about this. I always really appreciate what you guys are doing for the community. Let's consider my problem with your casting like a fan feedback for you to improve and if I used the words too harsh or inappropriate, I apologize for it. We’ll put in that last sentence. I hope it is clear that Scan and Nyoken did an amazing job casting this season. Any criticism about bias should be taken as something completely separate from the enjoyment and quality of cast that we got from them. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 11 2022 00:05 Magic Powers wrote: While Flash was around, no other terran player had a higher or equal winrate in any of the matchups. He always hovered around 70%+ in every matchup. Post-Kespa he reached 75%, briefly even 80%. Light's best matchup is TvZ and he sometimes came close to Flash's winrate with only a few % difference. Thanks for clarifying. Maybe I misremembered because he came close. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 10 2022 22:45 whaski wrote: Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it: https://youtu.be/2dT4U1xU6Hg But during Kespa Era Light used 111 https://youtu.be/RLurOizm6ns I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly. Don't forget about Fantasy...probably the first to use this strategy effectively long ago. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1689 Posts
Damn really thought Rain could win it he showed so much more skill this season than Light did. Just didn't show up tonight | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 11 2022 11:08 Sirris wrote: Don't forget about Fantasy...probably the first to use this strategy effectively long ago. Not to derail this thread, the original dropshipcentered version "T1-build" was invented by Iloveoov and adapted by Fantasy and Ssuck And lol sure sure, Rain showed more skill than Light during tournament with these results. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years). | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On April 09 2022 20:51 LaStScan wrote: Picking a single moment of my sentence doesn't mean I'm being biased for terran. There's literally no terran players who want to play on metaverse because there are 3 different level of floor(main is 3rd, nat is 2nd, 3rd base is 1st floor). Multiple of terrains with high and low grounds do not support terran for any of timing attack to execute any location 12 nexus with carrier build easily. It's just simply the map did not support for JyJ + Bisu with 0 mistake synergize on that map. Terran simply has to aim for protoss's mistakes to take some chance. So That's why I said JyJ did nothing wrong. I've said this numerous times I don't root for anyone when I do the commentary. I only talk about FACTs and what's out there. I compliment what the player did well/bad in the game. You close your ears all the time and hear ONLY what you want. Please don't talk like you know everything. + Nyoken and I don't get paid to do the ASL cast either. If you don't like our passion + commentary work, that's how you're killing the sc community. Don't even sweat it, most of us appreciate your commentary and the stuff you guys do for the community a lot. Check Scan out on Twitch guys. Hilarious game the other day where he beats arty with carriers and tanks (mind controlled SCV) where the tanks actually contributed to the win and weren't just a way ahead flex | ||
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LpTraxamillion
265 Posts
On April 10 2022 12:55 RKC wrote: Not sure what's with the 12 nexus hate. Is it really that cheesy or abusive? From what I understand (and as experts as Scan and Nyoken always stress), Protoss needs to be way ahead in supply and econ to cope with Terran's upgrade and Zerg's tech. What is the standard build for Protoss then? The casters are really doing a good job. But I do sometimes feel a lack of objective perspective may leave gaps in a casual viewer's understanding of current game meta and balance (like myself) and risks formenting a 'toxic' environment among fans (as glimpses from this thread has shown). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for a Terran win from a player other than God himself. A good spread of wins between the races is good for the sustainibility of the game. Maybe next season more people can get into the casting scene? I liked BisuDagger's cast while it lasted. Maybe Scan and Nyoken can have some guest casters once in a while? 12 nexus is pretty brutal in PvZ, especially these days | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
One underrated thing about having such strong players cast is that almost never miss anything. Every other caster misses stuff, often basic stuff (e.g. literally missing something that was shown on screen, but was overlooked because they just lost concentration for a moment or were too busy figuring out how to complete their current sentence). There's no shame in missing something as a caster. It's almost impossible not to miss stuff when casting dozens of hours of games. But tip-top level players like Scan and Nyoken know exactly what to look for at what time, which is why they so rarely ever miss anything. I want to call this out because we rarely notice when casters are *not* making certain mistakes. Great job and thank you again to Scan and Nyoken! Also, it is simply ridiculous that some people in this thread are complaining about supposed "bias". Even if Scan was super biased toward Terran (he's not), WHO CARES? It's a small price to pay to get such exceptional overall commentary. Clowns like TMNT getting in a direct debate and being all pedantic, nitpicky, and just all around dick-ish with Scan just flabbergasts me. As if one nobody's opinion about a cast is worth a damn. At least he apologized in the end. BS like this is why casters quit. You can say "oh it's just one guy, they should just tune it out". But Scan and Nyoken are doing this for free and out of their love of the game. Why should they have to put up with anything they don't want to put up with? Sometimes only takes one asshole to de-energize a caster, and make them think "screw it, why do I bother doing this". That's why I find it so aggravating to see TMNT's garbage. I'm not saying people should never critique a caster. Thoughtful, constructive criticism that assumes good intentions and gives the benefit of the doubt is fine. Otherwise, stfu and gtfo. There is literally an alternative English stream available. Everyone has the right to watch whatever stream they want, and stop watching a channel they don't prefer. But don't be a douchebag who is like "I don't even watch StarcastTV anymore" followed by critiquing the people on StarcastTV, calling them a "disgrace", etc. If Scan were to quit casting (which he has every right to do whenever he wants) because he got tired of hearing from some douchebag, will that douchebag (e.g. TMNT) be able to make up for the harm they have caused to the BW community? Will that douchebag produce an equal quality replacement for all the fans of StarcastTV who end up losing out because of the douchebag's actions? If you're not able to pay the price for the harm you potentially cause, then stop talking. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway697 Posts
On April 11 2022 18:10 darktreb wrote: Another amazing season of casting from Scan and Nyoken! We're incredibly lucky to have such exceptional players casting the games. One underrated thing about having such strong players cast is that almost never miss anything. Every other caster misses stuff, often basic stuff (e.g. literally missing something that was shown on screen, but was overlooked because they just lost concentration for a moment or were too busy figuring out how to complete their current sentence). There's no shame in missing something as a caster. It's almost impossible not to miss stuff when casting dozens of hours of games. But tip-top level players like Scan and Nyoken know exactly what to look for at what time, which is why they so rarely ever miss anything. I want to call this out because we rarely notice when casters are *not* making certain mistakes. Great job and thank you again to Scan and Nyoken! Also, it is simply ridiculous that some people in this thread are complaining about supposed "bias". Even if Scan was super biased toward Terran (he's not), WHO CARES? It's a small price to pay to get such exceptional overall commentary. Clowns like TMNT getting in a direct debate and being all pedantic, nitpicky, and just all around dick-ish with Scan just flabbergasts me. As if one nobody's opinion about a cast is worth a damn. At least he apologized in the end. BS like this is why casters quit. You can say "oh it's just one guy, they should just tune it out". But Scan and Nyoken are doing this for free and out of their love of the game. Why should they have to put up with anything they don't want to put up with? Sometimes only takes one asshole to de-energize a caster, and make them think "screw it, why do I bother doing this". That's why I find it so aggravating to see TMNT's garbage. I'm not saying people should never critique a caster. Thoughtful, constructive criticism that assumes good intentions and gives the benefit of the doubt is fine. Otherwise, stfu and gtfo. There is literally an alternative English stream available. Everyone has the right to watch whatever stream they want, and stop watching a channel they don't prefer. But don't be a douchebag who is like "I don't even watch StarcastTV anymore" followed by critiquing the people on StarcastTV, calling them a "disgrace", etc. If Scan were to quit casting (which he has every right to do whenever he wants) because he got tired of hearing from some douchebag, will that douchebag (e.g. TMNT) be able to make up for the harm they have caused to the BW community? Will that douchebag produce an equal quality replacement for all the fans of StarcastTV who end up losing out because of the douchebag's actions? If you're not able to pay the price for the harm you potentially cause, then stop talking. My thoughts exactly. It’s even more retarded when they don’t even want to watch the casters they claim to “help” with their “constructive criticism”. There’s a time and place for constructive criticism, and it’s not this thread, rather write it down on a note and throw it in the thrash. You’re not helping, we’ve got high quality casters now, doing this for free. If your shitty whining turns them off, it’s more help if you just shut the fuck up. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 11 2022 16:48 RKC wrote: So all great Terran innovation can be attributed back to iloveoov or Boxer! Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years). afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around. This is how Stork destroyed Flash with a reaver And this was Flash's response | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On the other hand darktreb just straight up called me asshole, douchebag, stfu and gtfo. I'd like to know if this is allowed on this board, so either he's banned or I'm preparing to write something in response | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 11 2022 21:51 RowdierBob wrote: Grow the fuck up, champ. You were being a douche. with that I consider this conversation over, move on people or action will be taken. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1543 Posts
Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice! | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On April 11 2022 22:57 moktira wrote: What a disappointing final to an otherwise great season. I'm pleased for Light what with getting married recently and all, but in a final you want it to feel close, and after game 1 this really didn't... Last season it went to the final game and I'd no idea who was going to win, here I felt Rain really didn't have a chance. Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice! It's unfortunate that it was a 4-0, but as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread; the games were closer than you'd expect from a 4-0. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Whenever he fast expanded, he built a forge and then scouted. If T had an expansion also, he canceled the forge and built a cyber core. If T didn't have an expansion, he left the forge in place and started a cannon at his nat. Obviously it didn't all work out the way Rain wanted, but Light is extremely good, so that's not necessarily a strike against the plan. In game 4 I would say that Light was dissuaded from doing a standard bunker rush by the cannon; Rain held off the subsequent bunker/tank push magnificently; and Rain only died to the mass bio attack because Light's execution was great and Rain probably wasn't expecting it, and maybe Rain needed to go for Reavers instead of Observers as a hedge against that strategy. But I don't think Rain's loss in game 4 was because the forge thing wasn't clever --- I think he actually got a lot of mileage out of the forge build. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1689 Posts
On April 11 2022 22:57 moktira wrote: What a disappointing final to an otherwise great season. I'm pleased for Light what with getting married recently and all, but in a final you want it to feel close, and after game 1 this really didn't... Last season it went to the final game and I'd no idea who was going to win, here I felt Rain really didn't have a chance. Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice! It was truly an amazing season What a horrible ending | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1764 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
Rain still has the same flaws in his PvT. He can hit some beautiful timings with his macro that most terrans can’t handle. But the top guys like Light and Flash (ASL s8) are able to play that really solid/impervious defensive style that Rain can’t break. If he misses that powerful timing he seems to lack a solid follow up and falls away in the long game. Still, a very impressive run given it’s his first big tourney in a long time. Hopefully comes back stronger. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 11 2022 21:01 Magic Powers wrote: afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around. This is how Stork destroyed Flash with a reaver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iioKridLM3o&ab_channel=nevake And this was Flash's response https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26lImRFiE78&ab_channel=nevake Wow, thanks for the link. Caught the whole series. Flash absolutely destroyed Stork (much more clinically than Light v Rain). My respect to Flash has gone up a notch. To be able to take down a more experienced foe (albeit a semi-Kong) with such creative and crisp play at such tender age is simply astounding. Sure, maybe his coaches and teammates helped him prepped some builds. But to execute them with such finesse and stone-cold instincts is amazing itself. The quick goliath to shut down reaver harass and keep the base safe at home while keeping the tank contain... Just wow! It's games like this that keeps BW fresh and alive after all these year. If only we have more wacky maps to keep things interesting these days. Please feel free to recommend more classic games from the KeSPA days! | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 12 2022 12:31 RKC wrote: Wow, thanks for the link. Caught the whole series. Flash absolutely destroyed Stork (much more clinically than Light v Rain). My respect to Flash has gone up a notch. To be able to take down a more experienced foe (albeit a semi-Kong) with such creative and crisp play at such tender age is simply astounding. Sure, maybe his coaches and teammates helped him prepped some builds. But to execute them with such finesse and stone-cold instincts is amazing itself. The quick goliath to shut down reaver harass and keep the base safe at home while keeping the tank contain... Just wow! It's games like this that keeps BW fresh and alive after all these year. If only we have more wacky maps to keep things interesting these days. Please feel free to recommend more classic games from the KeSPA days! I recall that Flash only barely won Stork 3-2 in another big tournament Finals just 1 week before this match. This was supposed to be Stork's revenge match 1 week in. Didn't turn out as expected 😂 Oh wait was it this match? Ok I don't remember haha | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
Mainly because the games are always close and level between the Top5-6 is quite competitive. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
On April 12 2022 17:14 oxKnu wrote: BSL is so much more fun than ASL these last two seasons. Mainly because the games are always close and level between the Top5-6 is quite competitive. rofl | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
It has been very impressive to see how he has become so good at the matchup. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Also, don't forget Flash v Snow. Now, that was even more of a beat down. I don't even quite recall how the matches went except that Snow just seemed utterly helpless. Flash also swept Rain before that, yes? So Flash went 7-0 in TvP en route to victory! | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
Just unreal the amount of bending over backwards I watch Bisu and Rain do to try and barely squeeze out an advantage and Terran just sits there and lays mines and gets upgrades and auto wins the tower defense matchup. It’s ridiculous honestly that nothings changed after all these years Whatever. I’ll just continue to pray that strong Terrans meet strong Zerg’s so we can actually get decent matches rather than this ridiculous PvT matchup. Unreal my disappointment I’ve been checking vods every hour just to watch this garbage User was warned for this post. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.) | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 12 2022 22:07 RKC wrote: Funny how the right side of the bracket turns out to be much stronger (soma floundered towards the end after such a bright start in the earlier rounds). Fair to say that Light v Bisu was the real final? Also, don't forget Flash v Snow. Now, that was even more of a beat down. I don't even quite recall how the matches went except that Snow just seemed utterly helpless. Flash also swept Rain before that, yes? So Flash went 7-0 in TvP en route to victory! Yes, Flash vs Snow in that final is probably the most comprehensive beatdown in the history of the game.Adding of course the stakes of that series. It's absolutely hilarious how at the time, some people were trying to suggest that somehow there will be an era of dominance for P in PvT. Never materialized and was never close either. One win here and there was all there was for a few ASLs and then the beatdowns resumed. | ||
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NotoriousSCV
27 Posts
Light's play is back to the late KeSPA era level TvP when P looked so vulnerable at S-class. Realistically, its interesting that it was never going to be a 4-0 to Rain, we could all guess Light would be able to take 2 games minimum so it's not that surprising Rain took a hit of confidence and fell 4-0. Btw the commentary is excellent. Artosis/Tasteless, well i don't want to be rude they are important in the foreign scene. But just listen to one of their casts, try Soma vs Rain. They still avoid casting one player being in a super winning advantage. It sounds really stupid to an enthusiast (remember the particular amazing game 2 with Rain ahead the entire time, but they wouldn't just accept the outcome being decided). I enjoyed Scans comments after the JYJ game because I trust him at that level to make those comments. As a close knit enthusiast community do we really need 100% objective commentary? How can be fully objective when Scan is a dedicated long-term T player. I like more personal comments in the casts. Rather than wacky casual commentary which is designed to entice casuals, as if the casters are their friends. Just one last thought - Rain did not split Light's attention once in the entire series... Light played completely comfortably. I'm sure at this level you need to split Terran attention and play Mini esque with drops or something. No SCV kills.. no drops. I realize the openers played their part in that. Was interesting watching the supply counts in game 1 and how careful Light was, but he wasn't really pushed in multitasking at all. Just hoping templars would facilitate bust. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Which Protoss is the true PvT master post-KeSPA then? I enjoy mini's balls-to-the-walls style in last ASL, but I really don't think it's sustainable and his builds will be figured out eventually (I vaguely remember Flash destroying him in previous ASL). Since such a long time we've had the Jangbi chills... | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 13 2022 01:22 RKC wrote: Yes, SK v Light would be an epic final. But I doubt SK has improved his ZvZ enough to take down soma. A soma v Light would likely end in an climatic way (strong likelihood that either one player would tilt). Which Protoss is the true PvT master post-KeSPA then? I enjoy mini's balls-to-the-walls style in last ASL, but I really don't think it's sustainable and his builds will be figured out eventually (I vaguely remember Flash destroying him in previous ASL). Since such a long time we've had the Jangbi chills... Best. Which is not saying much of course. Brute macro + clockwork shuttle-templar play. Perhaps the only style that hasn't looked pedestrian against Terran for a significant period of time in the remastered era. Even Flash had problems with it for awhile. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Of course, Rain had the same benefit playing soma after SK in back-to-back matches. And Light had to switch from TvZ after the match against action. Both players had roughly the same matchup distribution during the knockout, so all is fair. And probably Light would've won anyway without the prep head start. But maybe the series would've been closer if both players had to prep afresh. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
The truth is these players are very close in skill and the fate of each game is often determined by a good/bad opening and random factors (build order, spawning position). Game 1 was close. Game 2 was a moment of madness from Rain, probably due to the frustration in game 1. Game 3 and 4 were practically build order win. On another day, Rain could beat Light as well. Maybe not 4-0, but he's certainly capable of. In fact he did already beat Light in a BO3 in the very same tournament. | ||
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ggnore13
54 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
With preparation and the maps to back you up, a good Terran becomes a monster in a Bo7. Hypothetically speaking (and ofc this will never happen to verify), I would bet a lot of money that if these two would have to play a long string of Bo5 vs Bo7, Light would have a huge advantage in the longer format. When you play the race that can sit back and react, the moment you gain an advantage in a a game or the series, the Protoss has to take more risks, which can easily snowball in favor of Terran. It's always been like this. And in this specific matchup Light already knows his macro is impenetrable late-game (see the game vs Bisu in an earlier round). Bisu's macro is still incredible, no matter if you think he's washed or not. So clear advantage there too. --- I was thinking about this actually, if somehow ASL goes back to Bo5 finals I think that would help both Protoss and Zerg. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
I think people tend to underestimate the difference of format between a Korean-style month-long Starleague and the international 'weekender' (which of course is more apparent in SC2 rather than BW). Some races and players thrive on the first type, some on the second type, and only a rare few can perform well for both. A lot depends on the unique racial characteristics, map pool, and last but not least, player mechanics and play style. Length of series and map pool plays a significant role in prep. Even if there's an equal amount of maps in favour of a particular race, there's still a qualitative measure of depth. For example, Map X may favour Race A but A still needs to prep hard due to the diverse options available to Race B. Map Y is balanced but Race A needs to prep super hard just to even the matchup. So in a long series, Race B may even have the edge because its prep is much 'easier' (more direct and streamlined) and can disrupt Race B's prep and state of mind through mind-games. But that's the magic of BW - the assymmetry between the races. I wouldn't give up diversity for more symmetry. But it's by understanding the assymmetries in the game that makes us appreciate the game and players better. BW is closer to poker than chess. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
ASL13 overall was amazing. From Ro24 to Ro4. TQ Afreeca and Scan and Nyoken. Scan and Nyoken makes the stream 200% more enjoyable. | ||
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OtHER-X
Bulgaria79 Posts
As for the Scan & Nyoken's commentary - of course it is a bit biased, but I actually find it humorous (when they say that a build order is absolutely disgusting, it just means that they're struggling a lot against it). I truly appreciate Scan's contribution to the foreign community - we actually have an English-speaking top level player who's practicing with some of the ASL participants and is willingly sharing his perspective. By the way, I was watching Light stream yesterday and he played Scan youtu.be It's just a practice ladder game and Light might be fooling around, but it's cool to have such a high level commentator in the foreign community (sorry for the off-topic). | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 13 2022 13:44 chongu wrote: Kind of lackluster finals. I think in S-class PvT, protoss to play more coinflippy builds - proxy gates, proxy robo, dts, 12 nexus, hidden expansions, double reccalls. There's just now way to play macro style against such an excellent late-game terran. Rain plays more honour toss style which simply isn't possible. Game 1 - Rain's arbiters were so late as he just kept trying to bust light with mostly gateway units. This is a very good point and one of the downfalls of Protoss pros in ASL. You can argue a lot that P is the weakest of the races, rarely benefits from map advantage etc but it feels like a lot of strategy going into these series for P are inferior to the state of the meta and the h2h matchup. That's why I love Mini's approach. He'll do anything to shake things up even though (and no one mentions this) he has inferior parts of the game compared to a lot of pros (shaky shuttle control, bad corsair control, questionable late-game decision-making etc). He'll just set the stage from the get-go in all matchups and I think that's the best survival mechanism for Protoss today. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Rain tried to play clever against SK but didn't quite work out. Maybe the experience really scared him into playing back his usual vanilla style. Let's compare with last year's final. Even though it went all the way to the final game, did mini and Rush really play more superior than Rain and Light? Maybe yes, maybe not, it's a slight margin either way. (Personally, I prefer watching a lopsided final of a S-tier player giving a masterclass clinic and decimating an A-tier player. Rather than a nail-biting but error-strewn final between two A-tier players. That's just me, your mileage may vary. Also, this is just a hypothetical, and by no means describing the last two ASL finals in my last paragraph.) | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 13 2022 06:13 oxKnu wrote: With preparation and the maps to back you up, a good Terran becomes a monster in a Bo7. Hypothetically speaking (and ofc this will never happen to verify), I would bet a lot of money that if these two would have to play a long string of Bo5 vs Bo7, Light would have a huge advantage in the longer format. When you play the race that can sit back and react, the moment you gain an advantage in a a game or the series, the Protoss has to take more risks, which can easily snowball in favor of Terran. It's always been like this. And in this specific matchup Light already knows his macro is impenetrable late-game (see the game vs Bisu in an earlier round). Bisu's macro is still incredible, no matter if you think he's washed or not. So clear advantage there too. --- I was thinking about this actually, if somehow ASL goes back to Bo5 finals I think that would help both Protoss and Zerg. To me this sounds like a roundabout way of saying that Light is a better player, especially the bolded part. The player with the higher win% has an increasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number. The player with the lower win% has a decreasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number, so the player with the lower win% prefers a Bo1 where they can hope to win with a coinflippy build. Saying that Protoss needs X to be lower so that they can win with more coinflippy builds just sounds like you're saying that Protoss has a systemically lower win% than Terran. It's saying that Protoss can maybe dream up one or two magical miracle builds after practicing for a thousand games, and that as long as they can fill up a BoX with those magical miracle builds, they might win --- hence the Protoss need for a small value of X --- but as soon as they're just playing "normal" games, they're sunk. This seems like a view that's largely informed by the fact that one guy, Flash, is the best of the best and plays Terran. But if there had never been a Flash (and if Jaedong's wrists never game him trouble?), perhaps what we'd think about as "normal, default" StarCraft would be Jaedong winning every game with muta/ling. "Sure, a Terran can beat a Zerg in a Bo3 if they prepare amazing surprise builds, but in a Bo9 the Zerg will win every time because mutalisks are just like that." It's just the most convenient narrative, but that doesn't make it true. Another narrative might be that the player who took a long break and just got back into the game is at a disadvantage, compared to the player who never stopped practicing and never stopped being a top competitor. Also, where does the idea come from that Rain is such a genius that he's basically entitled to walk over Light? Like he has a winning aura? I think in this series Light had a winning aura. I like Rain a lot. His games this ASL have been amazing. His PvZ gave me hope. I have nothing against him. But I notice a lot of comments to the effect that he's transcendentally good and therefore it's unthinkable that he should lose, and I just wonder why Light doesn't get to be transcendentally good in our eyes. Don't you think Light has put in the practice hours? Why all the mythmaking? Even Flash said talent doesn't beat hard work. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
I agree with T having the advantage when playing defensive (in the current meta - mind you), but realistically speaking Rain just underperformed to get smacked 4-0... Playing his best - and one of the - PvZs ever a match earlier got people way too hyped about Rain. I wouldn't be surprised if it even boosted his confidence to the point of diminishing returns. Even Bisu didn't get owned this hard, and no, sorry, Bisu really didn't play that amazing either. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
On April 14 2022 02:12 Peeano wrote: I wonder if all you toss boys would agree that prime Jangbi would have had no problem taking down Light 4-2 or MAYBE even completely stomping him this finals. (I don't wanna discredit Light, because he did play very solid, just saying...) I agree with T having the advantage when playing defensive (in the current meta - mind you), but realistically speaking Rain just underperformed to get smacked 4-0... Playing his best - and one of the - PvZs ever a match earlier got people way too hyped about Rain. I wouldn't be surprised if it even boosted his confidence to the point of diminishing returns. Even Bisu didn't get owned this hard, and no, sorry, Bisu really didn't play that amazing either. There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again. Prime jangbi im sure with all the optimizations and all the knew knowledge now in 2022 will not be enough to beat Light. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 14 2022 00:59 Djabanete wrote: To me this sounds like a roundabout way of saying that Light is a better player, especially the bolded part. The player with the higher win% has an increasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number. The player with the lower win% has a decreasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number, so the player with the lower win% prefers a Bo1 where they can hope to win with a coinflippy build. Saying that Protoss needs X to be lower so that they can win with more coinflippy builds just sounds like you're saying that Protoss has a systemically lower win% than Terran. It's saying that Protoss can maybe dream up one or two magical miracle builds after practicing for a thousand games, and that as long as they can fill up a BoX with those magical miracle builds, they might win --- hence the Protoss need for a small value of X --- but as soon as they're just playing "normal" games, they're sunk. This seems like a view that's largely informed by the fact that one guy, Flash, is the best of the best and plays Terran. But if there had never been a Flash (and if Jaedong's wrists never game him trouble?), perhaps what we'd think about as "normal, default" StarCraft would be Jaedong winning every game with muta/ling. "Sure, a Terran can beat a Zerg in a Bo3 if they prepare amazing surprise builds, but in a Bo9 the Zerg will win every time because mutalisks are just like that." It's just the most convenient narrative, but that doesn't make it true. No, I'm not saying that. Although it is the easy conclusion, my point of view on the matter was that in the current configuration of the meta, Terran needs to be kept on their toes. Thus why I mentioned Mini in a previous post. I have a feeling that if you'd ask Flash and Light which is the most dangerous player they'd go for the Mini type rather than than Rain/Snow. This eco-cheese stuff that they're trying gives Terran 5 different ways to attack it before Protoss can run away with it. It barely works in competitive settings. Oddly enough it worked for Rain against Zerg but that's another matter. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 14 2022 03:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again Hahaha. You really believe that? Why would they? It's not the reason for him retiring again if that's what you're implying, Jangbi was far from his prime and played very little when he briefly returned. Either way it is completely irrelevant to what I was questioning. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6591 Posts
On April 14 2022 05:06 Peeano wrote: Hahaha. You really believe that? Why would they? It's not the reason for him retiring again if that's what you're implying, Jangbi was far from his prime and played very little when he briefly returned. Either way it is completely irrelevant to what I was questioning. Im convinced Jangbi in his Prime will not stand a chance vs this Light 2022 or FlaSh. This Light is beating 12 nexus first left and right.In pure macro games or specific counters. Also Jangbi streaming wasnt as short as you are saying. FlaSh literally made him quit. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
Tbh it'd be interesting if someone can come up with the stats for the outcomes of 12 Nexus. I've seen it ranging from Protoss dying immediately to Terran killing the Nexus but then dying immediately after that lol. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 14 2022 06:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: FlaSh literally made him quit. That is a rumor, not a fact. Exactly why I chose to respond to you in the first place. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1689 Posts
Yes I know he has a seed but that literally doesnt change anything in Rain's eyes as I'm pretty sure Rain had a seed in the next season just prior to his hiatus Hope his fans can convince him to compete again | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
Go Light! | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 14 2022 08:19 ShowTheLights wrote: Really hope Rain doesn't retire again after this beatdown. Yes I know he has a seed but that literally doesnt change anything in Rain's eyes as I'm pretty sure Rain had a seed in the next season just prior to his hiatus Hope his fans can convince him to compete again Thing is, even if he had won, it doesn't look like he'd gonna play regularly again. During this season he practiced on stream only a few days (dunno about offstream though) but it's not like he was participating in Proleague or KCM or anything like that. Without the university content he wouldn't play at all so I guess it's down to how long and how strong this university thing remains. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden522 Posts
On April 14 2022 16:26 Turbovolver wrote: God, this was like porn to me as a Rain anti-fan. I tooooold you his PvT was brainless! Even in game 1, great macro, boneheaded decisions on a PvT map. And it's great to see the early game coinflip shit going in the Terran's favour and against Rain's for once. Go Light! Yeah. Best ASL finals ever. | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 14 2022 17:37 TMNT wrote: Thing is, even if he had won, it doesn't look like he'd gonna play regularly again. During this season he practiced on stream only a few days (dunno about offstream though) but it's not like he was participating in Proleague or KCM or anything like that. Without the university content he wouldn't play at all so I guess it's down to how long and how strong this university thing remains. On one of his main accounts he had thousands of games in a relative short period of time (2 months, dunno). So he was actually training for this. People keep auto-assuming that he's a lazy ass that doesn't give a shit. I beg to differ. I think he's quite deliberate about the game in competitive setups even though his stream persona is that of a laid back guy. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
Anyway Light seems to be on another level TvP now, maybe only Snow can challenge him. Mini and Rain are awesome players but not really someone to beat him in a TvP Bo7. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
Then he does one poor attack, and another, and another, and another and another and he loses. I get that against most players it works a lot better, I really don't want to discredit Light here because he played fantastically. But Rain didn't. If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases. But I guess 1 more base isn't enough for Protoss to win in cost effectiveness... Rain played well. But well isn't enough in an ASL finals. Rains PvT has never been all that impressive but he really didn't perform well here. Lights combination of aggressive punishes when there was an opening for it and slow defensive macro play when there wasn't was a thing of beauty but Rain just had nothing. Really disappointing finals but a very worthy winner of this ASL. I am very happy for Light. But I wish he could've won in a more exciting way... | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 15 2022 00:26 Barneyk wrote: If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases. I think you totally misunderstood this PvT style. The whole point of it is to be aggressive. You have to attack and/or harass Terran nonstop with Shuttle and Templar to not let them grow on the map. If you wait for Terran to attack you, well, he won't, Because you don't have late tech (Arbiter or Carrier), the maxed out 3 3 Terran army will crush your Gateway army unless you can land some godlike storms. In fact with this Shuttle Templar play, you have to end the game before Terran lands his 4th base, or you'll die a slow, painful death. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 15 2022 00:26 Barneyk wrote: I was impressed early on by Rain in the first game and how he seemed so smart and comfortable, not overextending or wasting units in bad attacks. Then he does one poor attack, and another, and another, and another and another and he loses. I get that against most players it works a lot better, I really don't want to discredit Light here because he played fantastically. But Rain didn't. If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases. But I guess 1 more base isn't enough for Protoss to win in cost effectiveness... Rain played well. But well isn't enough in an ASL finals. Rains PvT has never been all that impressive but he really didn't perform well here. Lights combination of aggressive punishes when there was an opening for it and slow defensive macro play when there wasn't was a thing of beauty but Rain just had nothing. Really disappointing finals but a very worthy winner of this ASL. I am very happy for Light. But I wish he could've won in a more exciting way... The current shuttle-templar pvt that Best developed was based on one big timing around 11-12 minutes. The goal of this was to either trade armies with terran or destroy workerlines with storm. It creates cyckle that keeps terran low on supply count and allows protoss to trade armies again and again. Mini has been playing this ultra-aggressive mass speedshuttle like since Kespa-era but recently went towards more timing attacks. Rain tried to go for big timing to trade with Light but it was for naught because his earlygame. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Though it's a 4-0, far from the 4-3 I wanted, Light played really well and imo, I don't think Rain played that badly. He landed lots of good storms, had generally good engagements etc... Luck wasn't on his side when it came to spawns and scouting, but that's also on him for playing risky 12 nexus builds. IMO, I think that's Rain's weakness. He's really solid in macro, and he can make good choices, but he'll get moments where he'll decide to ram his units into a highly fortified position (anyone remember Rain vs Larva on Gold Rush and Fighting Spirit in ASL4?). I think he needed to pull off really aggressive strats such as proxy gates, dt rushes etc... and get Light out of his zone. Anyone remember how Mini mind gamed Zero in ASL11 where he went greedy one game then incredibly greedy next game (proxy 2 gates I believe). That's the kind of stuff that Rain needed to pull off. All this said, Rain is a strong player, but I much prefer a player like Mini who plays crazy strategies and wears his heart on his sleeve. The scouts last ASL finals vs Rush on Eclipse are prime example of this and to top it off, he was our third Protoss champion (Shuttle first ASL, Rain fifth ASL with wonky maps). I've seen people compare Rain to Flash, or even Rush from the last ASL, but imo, these are so far removed from the truth. I'd sooner compare ZerO during ASL9/10 than either player. Anyways, I think Light's play today is probably the closest we have gotten to Flash's level. On April 10 2022 22:45 whaski wrote: Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it: https://youtu.be/2dT4U1xU6Hg But during Kespa Era Light used 111 https://youtu.be/RLurOizm6ns I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly. A minor correction: if memory serves, Last was going for the 1-1-2 rather than 1-1-1. It was sSak who used 1-1-1 quite a bit since he learned it from iloveoov (see iloveoov vs zero game in 2008) and then Flash took the build and refined it into the 1-1-1 with expand prior to ASL6. On April 14 2022 03:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again. Prime jangbi im sure with all the optimizations and all the knew knowledge now in 2022 will not be enough to beat Light. He got beaten by Larva 2-1 in an SSL8 (or SSL9) then got eliminated in group stages after tiebreakers vs Mind and Free in SSL10. No reason to speculate if he could beat Light imo. Light's play against both Bisu and Rain was just so so solid | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 12 2022 23:10 Avi-Love wrote: The only sad thing about this ASL was SK choking against Rain. SK vs Light would've been the best possible final, and we definitely missed out in the TvZ department with both Light vs Action and Rush vs Soma being really one sided with pretty bad overall game quality. I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.) Yeah Rain got lucky vs SK imo, SK always likes to do weird ass builds when he's clearly the superior player going into mid and late game. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 13 2022 03:25 Essbee wrote: All the top protoss are PvZs masters, so the bulk of complaints from protoss fans has shifted from PvZ to PvT being the "impossible" matchup. Really miss the one and only protoss master, jangbang. PvT is not "impossible", the only player that currently has that Flash like inevitability is Light, all other top Terrans like Rush, Royal and JyJ got beat down quite easily by Protoss this season. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 12 2022 23:10 Avi-Love wrote: The only sad thing about this ASL was SK choking against Rain. SK vs Light would've been the best possible final, and we definitely missed out in the TvZ department with both Light vs Action and Rush vs Soma being really one sided with pretty bad overall game quality. I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.) You could've just said "then consider how well SK played against him in Ultimate Battle" instead of spoiling the result. Going back and still watching it now isn't quite as enticing. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
Not sure why people keep on bringing up how good jangbi was. Remeber the last osl vs fantasy where he just did a lot of DT builds and won? I personally don't like winning through DT! And sadly, i think rain didn't win a single match because he didn't even do a DT build. Oh well... Bisu vs Light Bo7 was more exciting than this, except last game where bisu just died from the mines. But I'm a bisu fanboy so I'm biased But this finals, i still enjoyed it and really hats off to lights. Perhaps rain had a hard time shifting to PvT when he did a lot of PvZ in this asl. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On April 10 2022 09:25 LaStScan wrote: What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up. I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny. This is the real map data if you want to talk about. + Show Spoiler + And this is bisu's interview after the match. https://youtu.be/76zZ5sFpmrI?t=7318 This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals. + Show Spoiler + Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there. And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games. Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers. Here's a shocking result online record that I'm going to show for you. Protoss side TOP5 Rain's PvT Eclipse 14-3 / Butter 9-1 / Metaverse 6-4 / Revolver 5-2 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 3-4 / Vermeer 9-10 SnOw's PvT Eclipse 49-17 / Butter 4-7 / Metaverse 15-5 / Revolver 35-13 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 21-9 / Vermeer 8-10 Best's PvT Eclipse 59-33 / Butter 7-7 / Metaverse 6-7 / Revolver 32-22 / Monopoly 3-4 / Allegro 20-12 / Vermeer 9-8 Mini's PvT Eclipse 54-28 / Butter 7-5 / Metaverse 12-11 / Revolver 34-24 / Monopoly 9-5 / Allegro 13-13 / Vermeer 14-11 Bisu's PvT Eclipse 19-12 / Butter 9-6 / Metaverse 11-2 / Revolver 9-9 / Monopoly 10-11 / Allegro 11-16 / Vermeer 11-11 Terran side TOP4 Light's TvP Eclipse 42-27 / Butter 8-5 / Metaverse 7-4 / Revolver 22-16 / Monopoly 3-5 / Allegro 14-9 / Vermeer 15-2 Rush's TvP Eclipse 61-50 / Butter 8-11 / Metaverse 12-16 / Revolver 36-30 / Monopoly 16-4 / Allegro 17-13 / Vermeer 16-10 RoyaL's TvP Eclipse 62-52 / Butter 8-7 / Metaverse 14-13 / Revolver 37-31 / Monopoly 14-13 / Allegro 16-16 / Vermeer 18-13 JyJ's TvP Eclipse 33-29 / Butter 5-3 / Metaverse 5-7 / Revolver 15-21 / Monopoly 8-5 / Allegro 15-11 / Vermeer 7-3 Overall PvT Eclipse 577-604(48.9%) / Butter 54-54(50.0%) / Metaverse 62-57(52.1%) / Revolver 209-236(47.0%) / Monopoly 52-59(46.8%) / Allegro 112-139(44.6%) / Vermeer 71-113(38.6%) Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool. You know Scan, that is exactlly what being based meas. Data shows one thing but you are not able to see it and you say it is otherwise. I like your casts, just try to not be soo much terran biased. | ||
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pigbanana
Canada20 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On April 15 2022 09:00 BigFan wrote: He's really solid in macro, and he can make good choices, but he'll get moments where he'll decide to ram his units into a highly fortified position (anyone remember Rain vs Larva on Gold Rush and Fighting Spirit in ASL4?). Literally the first thing I thought of when I watched him run headfirst into tanks lmao. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On April 11 2022 21:01 Magic Powers wrote: afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around. Don't think he exactly 'invent' it but he for sure made it much more of a norm. Before Flash, terrans used to take their third a lot slower, usually making some kind of push before they did. In order to accomodate that, upgrades were de-prioritized compared to simply pumping out units. As turrets don't take gas, it was easy to just build an ebay and turrets to defend against reavers. However, Flash played more defensively, and would sacrifice units as much as possible in order to get early upgrades and an early third. Since he got an armory so early anyway, it was much easier for him to add goliaths and get comsats early than try to build turrets. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
* by unlocking, I mean discovering a safe and solid pathway to max upgrades as quick as possible by actively harassing Protoss and fending off pushes, drops and recalls (and not merely knowing the superiority of mech upgrades as a theoretical certainty) | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 16 2022 13:14 RKC wrote: So was it Flash or someone else who truly unlocked* the power of 3-3 mech? * by unlocking, I mean discovering a safe and solid pathway to max upgrades as quick as possible by actively harassing Protoss and fending off pushes, drops and recalls (and not merely knowing the superiority of mech upgrades as a theoretical certainty) Different Era had different ways of achieving that, and protoss will then create different strategy to counter it and thus switch the favour. Long time back, how Oov does it was considered unbeatable, until he met Reach...... | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 16 2022 09:39 ColdLava wrote: Don't think he exactly 'invent' it but he for sure made it much more of a norm. Before Flash, terrans used to take their third a lot slower, usually making some kind of push before they did. In order to accomodate that, upgrades were de-prioritized compared to simply pumping out units. As turrets don't take gas, it was easy to just build an ebay and turrets to defend against reavers. However, Flash played more defensively, and would sacrifice units as much as possible in order to get early upgrades and an early third. Since he got an armory so early anyway, it was much easier for him to add goliaths and get comsats early than try to build turrets. There's absolutely no doubt that Flash invented the goliath counter vs reaver harassment. I followed the scene very closely back then, watching almost every single replay and vod from the korean pro and amateur scene. There was no one else who had come up with this idea before Flash in 2007. Building 2 goliaths so early, sometimes 4, and even upgrading range, moments after the completion of the natural expansion? It was unthinkable, completely off the table. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 17 2022 00:37 Magic Powers wrote: There's absolutely no doubt that Flash invented the goliath counter vs reaver harassment. I followed the scene very closely back then, watching almost every single replay and vod from the korean pro and amateur scene. There was no one else who had come up with this idea before Flash in 2007. Building 2 goliaths so early, sometimes 4, and even upgrading range, moments after the completion of the natural expansion? It was unthinkable, completely off the table. Why goliath instead of wraith? More cost-effective and multi-purpose? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 17 2022 00:50 RKC wrote: Why goliath instead of wraith? More cost-effective and multi-purpose? I think so, yeah. On Blue Storm the goliaths allow terran to more safely walk up the natural ramp to the third base, and again from the third base to the higher ground in the middle. It's also convenient to have the goliath tech ready against a potential carrier transition, and it allows for an early weapon upgrade, and goliaths can deal some ground damage. In regards to cost, a wraith makes more sense with a different opening build. Flash went for the early tank push to take out Stork's natural, so the goliath tech was a logical transition. An early starport would fit a less aggressive opening like fast expand into dropship harassment with vultures. Edit: Just want to note that I misremembered the date of the games. Flash had a losing record against Stork in 2007, and then in 2008 he defeated Stork in a match and revealed his new goliath build. | ||
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barcodejester
19 Posts
On April 16 2022 08:56 De4ngus wrote: Literally the first thing I thought of when I watched him run headfirst into tanks lmao. i mean the map is eclipse, its all chokes and ramps and the protoss has to engage | ||
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Gescom
Canada3397 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 17 2022 07:16 Magic Powers wrote: I think so, yeah. On Blue Storm the goliaths allow terran to more safely walk up the natural ramp to the third base, and again from the third base to the higher ground in the middle. It's also convenient to have the goliath tech ready against a potential carrier transition, and it allows for an early weapon upgrade, and goliaths can deal some ground damage. In regards to cost, a wraith makes more sense with a different opening build. Flash went for the early tank push to take out Stork's natural, so the goliath tech was a logical transition. An early starport would fit a less aggressive opening like fast expand into dropship harassment with vultures. Edit: Just want to note that I misremembered the date of the games. Flash had a losing record against Stork in 2007, and then in 2008 he defeated Stork in a match and revealed his new goliath build. Thanks for the info and insight! I suppose the drawback is that a well-placed reaver can easily take out the goliaths. Takes some good positioning, micro and star-sense for a Terran to fend off a drop with 1-2 goliaths. A single mistake will allow the reaver to deal insane damage to the SCV line or defending units back home, and also put Terran behind due to the wasted sunken economic and time cost of building goliaths instead of tanks and vultures. Just seems like a risky counter. That's why we don't see it much? Probably only works on certain maps, and when you're bonjwa material. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 17 2022 13:18 RKC wrote: Thanks for the info and insight! I suppose the drawback is that a well-placed reaver can easily take out the goliaths. Takes some good positioning, micro and star-sense for a Terran to fend off a drop with 1-2 goliaths. A single mistake will allow the reaver to deal insane damage to the SCV line or defending units back home, and also put Terran behind due to the wasted sunken economic and time cost of building goliaths instead of tanks and vultures. Just seems like a risky counter. That's why we don't see it much? Probably only works on certain maps, and when you're bonjwa material. iirc the build Flash used was a hard counter and over time it became more refined when protoss players adapted. Sometimes we see only one or two goliaths or no early range upgrade. These days terran players try to use marines with or without goliath support to counter early reaver drops and to pick off observers, sometimes we see a wraith, and we also still see the old-fashioned turret ring. There's no one optimal way to defend, it depends on various factors, including preference or even mind games. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
Snow just 7-0 ggaemo in the revenge showmatch, the same player he lost 0-2 to and got knocked out of R24 this season. Just another example on how form and luck on a given day can decide the fate of a match in tournaments | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 17 2022 20:17 TMNT wrote: + Show Spoiler + Snow just 7-0 ggaemo in the revenge showmatch, the same player he lost 0-2 to and got knocked out of R24 this season. Just another example on how form and luck on a given day can decide the fate of a match in tournaments especially in bo1.. which is why I think it should have been scrapped long time ago. | ||
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On April 18 2022 16:00 polgas wrote: There was a time when Light was so bad vs. Protoss. Now he's channeling Flash against them. He might be better now, but the only PvT specialist out there is snow right? And he didn't face snow. Not saying he didn't deserve the W, but I don't think it was anywhere near on par with Flash level TvP. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
Watch this to get the context of Light's PvT coming into ASL13. Ultimate Battle Bo9 and Snow lost 2-7. | ||
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