EPTAlso, don't forget Flash v Snow. Now, that was even more of a beat down. I don't even quite recall how the matches went except that Snow just seemed utterly helpless. Flash also swept Rain before that, yes? So Flash went 7-0 in TvP en route to victory!
[ASL13] Grand Finals - Page 16
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RKC
2848 Posts
Also, don't forget Flash v Snow. Now, that was even more of a beat down. I don't even quite recall how the matches went except that Snow just seemed utterly helpless. Flash also swept Rain before that, yes? So Flash went 7-0 in TvP en route to victory! | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
Just unreal the amount of bending over backwards I watch Bisu and Rain do to try and barely squeeze out an advantage and Terran just sits there and lays mines and gets upgrades and auto wins the tower defense matchup. It’s ridiculous honestly that nothings changed after all these years Whatever. I’ll just continue to pray that strong Terrans meet strong Zerg’s so we can actually get decent matches rather than this ridiculous PvT matchup. Unreal my disappointment I’ve been checking vods every hour just to watch this garbage User was warned for this post. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.) | ||
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oxKnu
1267 Posts
On April 12 2022 22:07 RKC wrote: Funny how the right side of the bracket turns out to be much stronger (soma floundered towards the end after such a bright start in the earlier rounds). Fair to say that Light v Bisu was the real final? Also, don't forget Flash v Snow. Now, that was even more of a beat down. I don't even quite recall how the matches went except that Snow just seemed utterly helpless. Flash also swept Rain before that, yes? So Flash went 7-0 in TvP en route to victory! Yes, Flash vs Snow in that final is probably the most comprehensive beatdown in the history of the game.Adding of course the stakes of that series. It's absolutely hilarious how at the time, some people were trying to suggest that somehow there will be an era of dominance for P in PvT. Never materialized and was never close either. One win here and there was all there was for a few ASLs and then the beatdowns resumed. | ||
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NotoriousSCV
27 Posts
Light's play is back to the late KeSPA era level TvP when P looked so vulnerable at S-class. Realistically, its interesting that it was never going to be a 4-0 to Rain, we could all guess Light would be able to take 2 games minimum so it's not that surprising Rain took a hit of confidence and fell 4-0. Btw the commentary is excellent. Artosis/Tasteless, well i don't want to be rude they are important in the foreign scene. But just listen to one of their casts, try Soma vs Rain. They still avoid casting one player being in a super winning advantage. It sounds really stupid to an enthusiast (remember the particular amazing game 2 with Rain ahead the entire time, but they wouldn't just accept the outcome being decided). I enjoyed Scans comments after the JYJ game because I trust him at that level to make those comments. As a close knit enthusiast community do we really need 100% objective commentary? How can be fully objective when Scan is a dedicated long-term T player. I like more personal comments in the casts. Rather than wacky casual commentary which is designed to entice casuals, as if the casters are their friends. Just one last thought - Rain did not split Light's attention once in the entire series... Light played completely comfortably. I'm sure at this level you need to split Terran attention and play Mini esque with drops or something. No SCV kills.. no drops. I realize the openers played their part in that. Was interesting watching the supply counts in game 1 and how careful Light was, but he wasn't really pushed in multitasking at all. Just hoping templars would facilitate bust. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Which Protoss is the true PvT master post-KeSPA then? I enjoy mini's balls-to-the-walls style in last ASL, but I really don't think it's sustainable and his builds will be figured out eventually (I vaguely remember Flash destroying him in previous ASL). Since such a long time we've had the Jangbi chills... | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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oxKnu
1267 Posts
On April 13 2022 01:22 RKC wrote: Yes, SK v Light would be an epic final. But I doubt SK has improved his ZvZ enough to take down soma. A soma v Light would likely end in an climatic way (strong likelihood that either one player would tilt). Which Protoss is the true PvT master post-KeSPA then? I enjoy mini's balls-to-the-walls style in last ASL, but I really don't think it's sustainable and his builds will be figured out eventually (I vaguely remember Flash destroying him in previous ASL). Since such a long time we've had the Jangbi chills... Best. Which is not saying much of course. Brute macro + clockwork shuttle-templar play. Perhaps the only style that hasn't looked pedestrian against Terran for a significant period of time in the remastered era. Even Flash had problems with it for awhile. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Of course, Rain had the same benefit playing soma after SK in back-to-back matches. And Light had to switch from TvZ after the match against action. Both players had roughly the same matchup distribution during the knockout, so all is fair. And probably Light would've won anyway without the prep head start. But maybe the series would've been closer if both players had to prep afresh. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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TMNT
3344 Posts
The truth is these players are very close in skill and the fate of each game is often determined by a good/bad opening and random factors (build order, spawning position). Game 1 was close. Game 2 was a moment of madness from Rain, probably due to the frustration in game 1. Game 3 and 4 were practically build order win. On another day, Rain could beat Light as well. Maybe not 4-0, but he's certainly capable of. In fact he did already beat Light in a BO3 in the very same tournament. | ||
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ggnore13
54 Posts
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oxKnu
1267 Posts
With preparation and the maps to back you up, a good Terran becomes a monster in a Bo7. Hypothetically speaking (and ofc this will never happen to verify), I would bet a lot of money that if these two would have to play a long string of Bo5 vs Bo7, Light would have a huge advantage in the longer format. When you play the race that can sit back and react, the moment you gain an advantage in a a game or the series, the Protoss has to take more risks, which can easily snowball in favor of Terran. It's always been like this. And in this specific matchup Light already knows his macro is impenetrable late-game (see the game vs Bisu in an earlier round). Bisu's macro is still incredible, no matter if you think he's washed or not. So clear advantage there too. --- I was thinking about this actually, if somehow ASL goes back to Bo5 finals I think that would help both Protoss and Zerg. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
I think people tend to underestimate the difference of format between a Korean-style month-long Starleague and the international 'weekender' (which of course is more apparent in SC2 rather than BW). Some races and players thrive on the first type, some on the second type, and only a rare few can perform well for both. A lot depends on the unique racial characteristics, map pool, and last but not least, player mechanics and play style. Length of series and map pool plays a significant role in prep. Even if there's an equal amount of maps in favour of a particular race, there's still a qualitative measure of depth. For example, Map X may favour Race A but A still needs to prep hard due to the diverse options available to Race B. Map Y is balanced but Race A needs to prep super hard just to even the matchup. So in a long series, Race B may even have the edge because its prep is much 'easier' (more direct and streamlined) and can disrupt Race B's prep and state of mind through mind-games. But that's the magic of BW - the assymmetry between the races. I wouldn't give up diversity for more symmetry. But it's by understanding the assymmetries in the game that makes us appreciate the game and players better. BW is closer to poker than chess. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2605 Posts
ASL13 overall was amazing. From Ro24 to Ro4. TQ Afreeca and Scan and Nyoken. Scan and Nyoken makes the stream 200% more enjoyable. | ||
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OtHER-X
Bulgaria79 Posts
As for the Scan & Nyoken's commentary - of course it is a bit biased, but I actually find it humorous (when they say that a build order is absolutely disgusting, it just means that they're struggling a lot against it). I truly appreciate Scan's contribution to the foreign community - we actually have an English-speaking top level player who's practicing with some of the ASL participants and is willingly sharing his perspective. By the way, I was watching Light stream yesterday and he played Scan youtu.be It's just a practice ladder game and Light might be fooling around, but it's cool to have such a high level commentator in the foreign community (sorry for the off-topic). | ||
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oxKnu
1267 Posts
On April 13 2022 13:44 chongu wrote: Kind of lackluster finals. I think in S-class PvT, protoss to play more coinflippy builds - proxy gates, proxy robo, dts, 12 nexus, hidden expansions, double reccalls. There's just now way to play macro style against such an excellent late-game terran. Rain plays more honour toss style which simply isn't possible. Game 1 - Rain's arbiters were so late as he just kept trying to bust light with mostly gateway units. This is a very good point and one of the downfalls of Protoss pros in ASL. You can argue a lot that P is the weakest of the races, rarely benefits from map advantage etc but it feels like a lot of strategy going into these series for P are inferior to the state of the meta and the h2h matchup. That's why I love Mini's approach. He'll do anything to shake things up even though (and no one mentions this) he has inferior parts of the game compared to a lot of pros (shaky shuttle control, bad corsair control, questionable late-game decision-making etc). He'll just set the stage from the get-go in all matchups and I think that's the best survival mechanism for Protoss today. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Rain tried to play clever against SK but didn't quite work out. Maybe the experience really scared him into playing back his usual vanilla style. Let's compare with last year's final. Even though it went all the way to the final game, did mini and Rush really play more superior than Rain and Light? Maybe yes, maybe not, it's a slight margin either way. (Personally, I prefer watching a lopsided final of a S-tier player giving a masterclass clinic and decimating an A-tier player. Rather than a nail-biting but error-strewn final between two A-tier players. That's just me, your mileage may vary. Also, this is just a hypothetical, and by no means describing the last two ASL finals in my last paragraph.) | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 13 2022 06:13 oxKnu wrote: With preparation and the maps to back you up, a good Terran becomes a monster in a Bo7. Hypothetically speaking (and ofc this will never happen to verify), I would bet a lot of money that if these two would have to play a long string of Bo5 vs Bo7, Light would have a huge advantage in the longer format. When you play the race that can sit back and react, the moment you gain an advantage in a a game or the series, the Protoss has to take more risks, which can easily snowball in favor of Terran. It's always been like this. And in this specific matchup Light already knows his macro is impenetrable late-game (see the game vs Bisu in an earlier round). Bisu's macro is still incredible, no matter if you think he's washed or not. So clear advantage there too. --- I was thinking about this actually, if somehow ASL goes back to Bo5 finals I think that would help both Protoss and Zerg. To me this sounds like a roundabout way of saying that Light is a better player, especially the bolded part. The player with the higher win% has an increasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number. The player with the lower win% has a decreasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number, so the player with the lower win% prefers a Bo1 where they can hope to win with a coinflippy build. Saying that Protoss needs X to be lower so that they can win with more coinflippy builds just sounds like you're saying that Protoss has a systemically lower win% than Terran. It's saying that Protoss can maybe dream up one or two magical miracle builds after practicing for a thousand games, and that as long as they can fill up a BoX with those magical miracle builds, they might win --- hence the Protoss need for a small value of X --- but as soon as they're just playing "normal" games, they're sunk. This seems like a view that's largely informed by the fact that one guy, Flash, is the best of the best and plays Terran. But if there had never been a Flash (and if Jaedong's wrists never game him trouble?), perhaps what we'd think about as "normal, default" StarCraft would be Jaedong winning every game with muta/ling. "Sure, a Terran can beat a Zerg in a Bo3 if they prepare amazing surprise builds, but in a Bo9 the Zerg will win every time because mutalisks are just like that." It's just the most convenient narrative, but that doesn't make it true. Another narrative might be that the player who took a long break and just got back into the game is at a disadvantage, compared to the player who never stopped practicing and never stopped being a top competitor. Also, where does the idea come from that Rain is such a genius that he's basically entitled to walk over Light? Like he has a winning aura? I think in this series Light had a winning aura. I like Rain a lot. His games this ASL have been amazing. His PvZ gave me hope. I have nothing against him. But I notice a lot of comments to the effect that he's transcendentally good and therefore it's unthinkable that he should lose, and I just wonder why Light doesn't get to be transcendentally good in our eyes. Don't you think Light has put in the practice hours? Why all the mythmaking? Even Flash said talent doesn't beat hard work. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5899 Posts
I agree with T having the advantage when playing defensive (in the current meta - mind you), but realistically speaking Rain just underperformed to get smacked 4-0... Playing his best - and one of the - PvZs ever a match earlier got people way too hyped about Rain. I wouldn't be surprised if it even boosted his confidence to the point of diminishing returns. Even Bisu didn't get owned this hard, and no, sorry, Bisu really didn't play that amazing either. | ||
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