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On April 14 2022 02:12 Peeano wrote:
I wonder if all you toss boys would agree that prime Jangbi would have had no problem taking down Light 4-2 or MAYBE even completely stomping him this finals. (I don't wanna discredit Light, because he did play very solid, just saying...)
I agree with T having the advantage when playing defensive (in the current meta - mind you), but realistically speaking Rain just underperformed to get smacked 4-0... Playing his best - and one of the - PvZs ever a match earlier got people way too hyped about Rain. I wouldn't be surprised if it even boosted his confidence to the point of diminishing returns. Even Bisu didn't get owned this hard, and no, sorry, Bisu really didn't play that amazing either.
There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again. Prime jangbi im sure with all the optimizations and all the knew knowledge now in 2022 will not be enough to beat Light.
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On April 14 2022 00:59 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 06:13 oxKnu wrote:
With preparation and the maps to back you up, a good Terran becomes a monster in a Bo7.
Hypothetically speaking (and ofc this will never happen to verify), I would bet a lot of money that if these two would have to play a long string of Bo5 vs Bo7, Light would have a huge advantage in the longer format.
When you play the race that can sit back and react, the moment you gain an advantage in a a game or the series, the Protoss has to take more risks, which can easily snowball in favor of Terran. It's always been like this.
And in this specific matchup Light already knows his macro is impenetrable late-game (see the game vs Bisu in an earlier round). Bisu's macro is still incredible, no matter if you think he's washed or not. So clear advantage there too.
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I was thinking about this actually, if somehow ASL goes back to Bo5 finals I think that would help both Protoss and Zerg. To me this sounds like a roundabout way of saying that Light is a better player, especially the bolded part. The player with the higher win% has an increasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number. The player with the lower win% has a decreasing chance of winning a BoX as X becomes a bigger number, so the player with the lower win% prefers a Bo1 where they can hope to win with a coinflippy build. Saying that Protoss needs X to be lower so that they can win with more coinflippy builds just sounds like you're saying that Protoss has a systemically lower win% than Terran. It's saying that Protoss can maybe dream up one or two magical miracle builds after practicing for a thousand games, and that as long as they can fill up a BoX with those magical miracle builds, they might win --- hence the Protoss need for a small value of X --- but as soon as they're just playing "normal" games, they're sunk. This seems like a view that's largely informed by the fact that one guy, Flash, is the best of the best and plays Terran. But if there had never been a Flash (and if Jaedong's wrists never game him trouble?), perhaps what we'd think about as "normal, default" StarCraft would be Jaedong winning every game with muta/ling. "Sure, a Terran can beat a Zerg in a Bo3 if they prepare amazing surprise builds, but in a Bo9 the Zerg will win every time because mutalisks are just like that." It's just the most convenient narrative, but that doesn't make it true.
No, I'm not saying that. Although it is the easy conclusion, my point of view on the matter was that in the current configuration of the meta, Terran needs to be kept on their toes. Thus why I mentioned Mini in a previous post. I have a feeling that if you'd ask Flash and Light which is the most dangerous player they'd go for the Mini type rather than than Rain/Snow. This eco-cheese stuff that they're trying gives Terran 5 different ways to attack it before Protoss can run away with it. It barely works in competitive settings.
Oddly enough it worked for Rain against Zerg but that's another matter.
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Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 14 2022 03:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again
Hahaha. You really believe that? Why would they? It's not the reason for him retiring again if that's what you're implying, Jangbi was far from his prime and played very little when he briefly returned. Either way it is completely irrelevant to what I was questioning.
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On April 14 2022 05:06 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2022 03:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again Hahaha. You really believe that? Why would they? It's not the reason for him retiring again if that's what you're implying, Jangbi was far from his prime and played very little when he briefly returned. Either way it is completely irrelevant to what I was questioning.
Im convinced Jangbi in his Prime will not stand a chance vs this Light 2022 or FlaSh. This Light is beating 12 nexus first left and right.In pure macro games or specific counters.
Also Jangbi streaming wasnt as short as you are saying. FlaSh literally made him quit.
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Beating 12 Nexus is not that special. If it's cross spawn then you shouldn't go for the rush but if it's close spawn Protoss has to count on luck to keep their Nexus when your marines and scvs come.
Tbh it'd be interesting if someone can come up with the stats for the outcomes of 12 Nexus. I've seen it ranging from Protoss dying immediately to Terran killing the Nexus but then dying immediately after that lol.
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Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 14 2022 06:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
FlaSh literally made him quit.
That is a rumor, not a fact. Exactly why I chose to respond to you in the first place.
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Really hope Rain doesn't retire again after this beatdown.
Yes I know he has a seed but that literally doesnt change anything in Rain's eyes as I'm pretty sure Rain had a seed in the next season just prior to his hiatus
Hope his fans can convince him to compete again
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12 nex is just begging to be marine rushed and hydra busted. All Protoss knows that. It's just a calculated risk. But going for some proxy gate or some fast reaver or DT build is just as risky. So while Rain and mini has different playstyles, ultimately their risk appetite is roughly the same. Peak Flash can bat away both of them with equal ease. Light seems to have reached that level as well. So whilst in hindsight one may speculate that mini may have put up a better fight against Light, in the end it's just speculation and we'll never know what's the state of preparation and mindset of Light. Maybe some of the Korean pro cast may shed some light? Until we have more info, no other other Toss except Bisu would've gave a better fight against Light based on the performances of all Toss players this season (Best, mini, etc). And whilst I love Jangbi's KeSPA play, it's even more of a speculation how he would fare in this current state.
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Great to see a lot of discussion on this series and BW generally! Sucks that it was a 4-0 but they were exciting games. I was pulling for Rain to keep the series going in the last match. I am glad that Light won overall. GGs.
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God, this was like porn to me as a Rain anti-fan. I tooooold you his PvT was brainless! Even in game 1, great macro, boneheaded decisions on a PvT map. And it's great to see the early game coinflip shit going in the Terran's favour and against Rain's for once.
Go Light!
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On April 14 2022 08:19 ShowTheLights wrote:
Really hope Rain doesn't retire again after this beatdown.
Yes I know he has a seed but that literally doesnt change anything in Rain's eyes as I'm pretty sure Rain had a seed in the next season just prior to his hiatus
Hope his fans can convince him to compete again
Thing is, even if he had won, it doesn't look like he'd gonna play regularly again. During this season he practiced on stream only a few days (dunno about offstream though) but it's not like he was participating in Proleague or KCM or anything like that.
Without the university content he wouldn't play at all so I guess it's down to how long and how strong this university thing remains.
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rain got 2nd in a premier tournament after a long hiatus, thats already a win in my book. only one that can win something directly after 2 years out of the system is probably flash maybe
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Damn Light straightup crushed the series.
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On April 14 2022 16:26 Turbovolver wrote:
God, this was like porn to me as a Rain anti-fan. I tooooold you his PvT was brainless! Even in game 1, great macro, boneheaded decisions on a PvT map. And it's great to see the early game coinflip shit going in the Terran's favour and against Rain's for once.
Go Light!
Yeah. Best ASL finals ever.
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On April 14 2022 17:37 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2022 08:19 ShowTheLights wrote:
Really hope Rain doesn't retire again after this beatdown.
Yes I know he has a seed but that literally doesnt change anything in Rain's eyes as I'm pretty sure Rain had a seed in the next season just prior to his hiatus
Hope his fans can convince him to compete again
Thing is, even if he had won, it doesn't look like he'd gonna play regularly again. During this season he practiced on stream only a few days (dunno about offstream though) but it's not like he was participating in Proleague or KCM or anything like that. Without the university content he wouldn't play at all so I guess it's down to how long and how strong this university thing remains.
On one of his main accounts he had thousands of games in a relative short period of time (2 months, dunno). So he was actually training for this.
People keep auto-assuming that he's a lazy ass that doesn't give a shit. I beg to differ.
I think he's quite deliberate about the game in competitive setups even though his stream persona is that of a laid back guy.
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The first game was so sick, I like how Eclipse is favoured for Protoss early game and Terran late game.
Anyway Light seems to be on another level TvP now, maybe only Snow can challenge him. Mini and Rain are awesome players but not really someone to beat him in a TvP Bo7.
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I was impressed early on by Rain in the first game and how he seemed so smart and comfortable, not overextending or wasting units in bad attacks.
Then he does one poor attack, and another, and another, and another and another and he loses.
I get that against most players it works a lot better, I really don't want to discredit Light here because he played fantastically. But Rain didn't.
If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases.
But I guess 1 more base isn't enough for Protoss to win in cost effectiveness...
Rain played well. But well isn't enough in an ASL finals. Rains PvT has never been all that impressive but he really didn't perform well here.
Lights combination of aggressive punishes when there was an opening for it and slow defensive macro play when there wasn't was a thing of beauty but Rain just had nothing.
Really disappointing finals but a very worthy winner of this ASL. I am very happy for Light. But I wish he could've won in a more exciting way...
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On April 15 2022 00:26 Barneyk wrote:
If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases.
I think you totally misunderstood this PvT style. The whole point of it is to be aggressive. You have to attack and/or harass Terran nonstop with Shuttle and Templar to not let them grow on the map. If you wait for Terran to attack you, well, he won't, Because you don't have late tech (Arbiter or Carrier), the maxed out 3 3 Terran army will crush your Gateway army unless you can land some godlike storms.
In fact with this Shuttle Templar play, you have to end the game before Terran lands his 4th base, or you'll die a slow, painful death.
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On April 15 2022 00:26 Barneyk wrote:
I was impressed early on by Rain in the first game and how he seemed so smart and comfortable, not overextending or wasting units in bad attacks.
Then he does one poor attack, and another, and another, and another and another and he loses.
I get that against most players it works a lot better, I really don't want to discredit Light here because he played fantastically. But Rain didn't.
If you are going for this style it seems like it never really works out to be aggressive. Let the Terran attack into you and try and hold them off their bases.
But I guess 1 more base isn't enough for Protoss to win in cost effectiveness...
Rain played well. But well isn't enough in an ASL finals. Rains PvT has never been all that impressive but he really didn't perform well here.
Lights combination of aggressive punishes when there was an opening for it and slow defensive macro play when there wasn't was a thing of beauty but Rain just had nothing.
Really disappointing finals but a very worthy winner of this ASL. I am very happy for Light. But I wish he could've won in a more exciting way...
The current shuttle-templar pvt that Best developed was based on one big timing around 11-12 minutes. The goal of this was to either trade armies with terran or destroy workerlines with storm. It creates cyckle that keeps terran low on supply count and allows protoss to trade armies again and again. Mini has been playing this ultra-aggressive mass speedshuttle like since Kespa-era but recently went towards more timing attacks. Rain tried to go for big timing to trade with Light but it was for naught because his earlygame.
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I know I was very critical of mini picking Light in the group stage previously. Wow, maybe it all makes sense now. Best chance of eliminating Light is in a shorter series.
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EPT
