On April 10 2022 12:55 RKC wrote: Not sure what's with the 12 nexus hate. Is it really that cheesy or abusive? From what I understand (and as experts as Scan and Nyoken always stress), Protoss needs to be way ahead in supply and econ to cope with Terran's upgrade and Zerg's tech. What is the standard build for Protoss then?
The casters are really doing a good job. But I do sometimes feel a lack of objective perspective may leave gaps in a casual viewer's understanding of current game meta and balance (like myself) and risks formenting a 'toxic' environment among fans (as glimpses from this thread has shown).
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for a Terran win from a player other than God himself. A good spread of wins between the races is good for the sustainibility of the game. Maybe next season more people can get into the casting scene? I liked BisuDagger's cast while it lasted. Maybe Scan and Nyoken can have some guest casters once in a while?
12 nexus is pretty brutal in PvZ, especially these days
Another amazing season of casting from Scan and Nyoken! We're incredibly lucky to have such exceptional players casting the games.
One underrated thing about having such strong players cast is that almost never miss anything. Every other caster misses stuff, often basic stuff (e.g. literally missing something that was shown on screen, but was overlooked because they just lost concentration for a moment or were too busy figuring out how to complete their current sentence). There's no shame in missing something as a caster. It's almost impossible not to miss stuff when casting dozens of hours of games. But tip-top level players like Scan and Nyoken know exactly what to look for at what time, which is why they so rarely ever miss anything.
I want to call this out because we rarely notice when casters are *not* making certain mistakes. Great job and thank you again to Scan and Nyoken!
Also, it is simply ridiculous that some people in this thread are complaining about supposed "bias". Even if Scan was super biased toward Terran (he's not), WHO CARES? It's a small price to pay to get such exceptional overall commentary. Clowns like TMNT getting in a direct debate and being all pedantic, nitpicky, and just all around dick-ish with Scan just flabbergasts me. As if one nobody's opinion about a cast is worth a damn. At least he apologized in the end. BS like this is why casters quit. You can say "oh it's just one guy, they should just tune it out". But Scan and Nyoken are doing this for free and out of their love of the game. Why should they have to put up with anything they don't want to put up with?
Sometimes only takes one asshole to de-energize a caster, and make them think "screw it, why do I bother doing this". That's why I find it so aggravating to see TMNT's garbage.
I'm not saying people should never critique a caster. Thoughtful, constructive criticism that assumes good intentions and gives the benefit of the doubt is fine. Otherwise, stfu and gtfo. There is literally an alternative English stream available. Everyone has the right to watch whatever stream they want, and stop watching a channel they don't prefer. But don't be a douchebag who is like "I don't even watch StarcastTV anymore" followed by critiquing the people on StarcastTV, calling them a "disgrace", etc.
If Scan were to quit casting (which he has every right to do whenever he wants) because he got tired of hearing from some douchebag, will that douchebag (e.g. TMNT) be able to make up for the harm they have caused to the BW community? Will that douchebag produce an equal quality replacement for all the fans of StarcastTV who end up losing out because of the douchebag's actions?
If you're not able to pay the price for the harm you potentially cause, then stop talking.
On April 11 2022 18:10 darktreb wrote: Another amazing season of casting from Scan and Nyoken! We're incredibly lucky to have such exceptional players casting the games.
One underrated thing about having such strong players cast is that almost never miss anything. Every other caster misses stuff, often basic stuff (e.g. literally missing something that was shown on screen, but was overlooked because they just lost concentration for a moment or were too busy figuring out how to complete their current sentence). There's no shame in missing something as a caster. It's almost impossible not to miss stuff when casting dozens of hours of games. But tip-top level players like Scan and Nyoken know exactly what to look for at what time, which is why they so rarely ever miss anything.
I want to call this out because we rarely notice when casters are *not* making certain mistakes. Great job and thank you again to Scan and Nyoken!
Also, it is simply ridiculous that some people in this thread are complaining about supposed "bias". Even if Scan was super biased toward Terran (he's not), WHO CARES? It's a small price to pay to get such exceptional overall commentary. Clowns like TMNT getting in a direct debate and being all pedantic, nitpicky, and just all around dick-ish with Scan just flabbergasts me. As if one nobody's opinion about a cast is worth a damn. At least he apologized in the end. BS like this is why casters quit. You can say "oh it's just one guy, they should just tune it out". But Scan and Nyoken are doing this for free and out of their love of the game. Why should they have to put up with anything they don't want to put up with?
Sometimes only takes one asshole to de-energize a caster, and make them think "screw it, why do I bother doing this". That's why I find it so aggravating to see TMNT's garbage.
I'm not saying people should never critique a caster. Thoughtful, constructive criticism that assumes good intentions and gives the benefit of the doubt is fine. Otherwise, stfu and gtfo. There is literally an alternative English stream available. Everyone has the right to watch whatever stream they want, and stop watching a channel they don't prefer. But don't be a douchebag who is like "I don't even watch StarcastTV anymore" followed by critiquing the people on StarcastTV, calling them a "disgrace", etc.
If Scan were to quit casting (which he has every right to do whenever he wants) because he got tired of hearing from some douchebag, will that douchebag (e.g. TMNT) be able to make up for the harm they have caused to the BW community? Will that douchebag produce an equal quality replacement for all the fans of StarcastTV who end up losing out because of the douchebag's actions?
If you're not able to pay the price for the harm you potentially cause, then stop talking.
My thoughts exactly. It’s even more retarded when they don’t even want to watch the casters they claim to “help” with their “constructive criticism”. There’s a time and place for constructive criticism, and it’s not this thread, rather write it down on a note and throw it in the thrash. You’re not helping, we’ve got high quality casters now, doing this for free. If your shitty whining turns them off, it’s more help if you just shut the fuck up.
On April 11 2022 16:48 RKC wrote: So all great Terran innovation can be attributed back to iloveoov or Boxer!
Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years).
afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around.
Dont put words into my mouth. I never claimed to help or provide constructive criticism at the beginning. Just shared my thoughts on the matter. The most offensive I was during the whole thing is using the word "disgrace", which the mod considered not over the line I assume. Since Scan seems very earnest in clarifying the problem, I think it's best to make peace.
On the other hand darktreb just straight up called me asshole, douchebag, stfu and gtfo. I'd like to know if this is allowed on this board, so either he's banned or I'm preparing to write something in response
What a disappointing final to an otherwise great season. I'm pleased for Light what with getting married recently and all, but in a final you want it to feel close, and after game 1 this really didn't... Last season it went to the final game and I'd no idea who was going to win, here I felt Rain really didn't have a chance.
Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice!
On April 11 2022 22:57 moktira wrote: What a disappointing final to an otherwise great season. I'm pleased for Light what with getting married recently and all, but in a final you want it to feel close, and after game 1 this really didn't... Last season it went to the final game and I'd no idea who was going to win, here I felt Rain really didn't have a chance.
Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice!
It's unfortunate that it was a 4-0, but as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread; the games were closer than you'd expect from a 4-0.
Is it just me or did Rain bring a whole new concept to PvT?
Whenever he fast expanded, he built a forge and then scouted. If T had an expansion also, he canceled the forge and built a cyber core. If T didn't have an expansion, he left the forge in place and started a cannon at his nat.
Obviously it didn't all work out the way Rain wanted, but Light is extremely good, so that's not necessarily a strike against the plan.
In game 4 I would say that Light was dissuaded from doing a standard bunker rush by the cannon; Rain held off the subsequent bunker/tank push magnificently; and Rain only died to the mass bio attack because Light's execution was great and Rain probably wasn't expecting it, and maybe Rain needed to go for Reavers instead of Observers as a hedge against that strategy. But I don't think Rain's loss in game 4 was because the forge thing wasn't clever --- I think he actually got a lot of mileage out of the forge build.
On April 11 2022 22:57 moktira wrote: What a disappointing final to an otherwise great season. I'm pleased for Light what with getting married recently and all, but in a final you want it to feel close, and after game 1 this really didn't... Last season it went to the final game and I'd no idea who was going to win, here I felt Rain really didn't have a chance.
Thanks as always to Scan and Nyoken for their fantastic and highly enthusiastic casting (and also briefly to Legoman at the start of this season). I always learn so much from you guys and you point out things I would never notice!
This series was pretty disappointing after game one.
Rain still has the same flaws in his PvT. He can hit some beautiful timings with his macro that most terrans can’t handle. But the top guys like Light and Flash (ASL s8) are able to play that really solid/impervious defensive style that Rain can’t break. If he misses that powerful timing he seems to lack a solid follow up and falls away in the long game.
Still, a very impressive run given it’s his first big tourney in a long time. Hopefully comes back stronger.
On April 11 2022 16:48 RKC wrote: So all great Terran innovation can be attributed back to iloveoov or Boxer!
Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years).
afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around.
Wow, thanks for the link. Caught the whole series. Flash absolutely destroyed Stork (much more clinically than Light v Rain). My respect to Flash has gone up a notch. To be able to take down a more experienced foe (albeit a semi-Kong) with such creative and crisp play at such tender age is simply astounding. Sure, maybe his coaches and teammates helped him prepped some builds. But to execute them with such finesse and stone-cold instincts is amazing itself.
The quick goliath to shut down reaver harass and keep the base safe at home while keeping the tank contain... Just wow! It's games like this that keeps BW fresh and alive after all these year. If only we have more wacky maps to keep things interesting these days. Please feel free to recommend more classic games from the KeSPA days!
On April 11 2022 16:48 RKC wrote: So all great Terran innovation can be attributed back to iloveoov or Boxer!
Yes, I may have mistaken Light for Last in the optimising of 1-1-1 in post-KeSPA. It's really such a funky counterintuitive build to TvZ (going fast air instead of pumping marines and tanks). I remember thinking "WTF is going on?" when watching Flash absolutely demolishing Zero in the MSL final with sharp timing builds (after tuning out for some years).
afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around.
Wow, thanks for the link. Caught the whole series. Flash absolutely destroyed Stork (much more clinically than Light v Rain). My respect to Flash has gone up a notch. To be able to take down a more experienced foe (albeit a semi-Kong) with such creative and crisp play at such tender age is simply astounding. Sure, maybe his coaches and teammates helped him prepped some builds. But to execute them with such finesse and stone-cold instincts is amazing itself.
The quick goliath to shut down reaver harass and keep the base safe at home while keeping the tank contain... Just wow! It's games like this that keeps BW fresh and alive after all these year. If only we have more wacky maps to keep things interesting these days. Please feel free to recommend more classic games from the KeSPA days!
I recall that Flash only barely won Stork 3-2 in another big tournament Finals just 1 week before this match. This was supposed to be Stork's revenge match 1 week in. Didn't turn out as expected 😂
Oh wait was it this match? Ok I don't remember haha
I dont really consider the finals bad. Light TvP is so good right now. Is really cool to watch someone apart from FlaSh that dominates the race at such lvl. Is a miracle Rain made it to the finals.Stars aligned so many times with him.So yeah I enjoyed the finals. Fck Protoss.
The amazing thing about Light is how much his TvP has improved. For those who remember the Kespa days, he was awful at TvP. Just had no idea what to do and was an easy win for most pro level Protoss players.
It has been very impressive to see how he has become so good at the matchup.
EPT
