[ASL13] Grand Finals - Page 18

On April 10 2022 22:45 whaski wrote:


Post Kespa, it was Flash who started to win with 1-1-1. Before it was mostly Sscuk and Mind who utilized slightly different version with dropship. Last adapted 111, some would say even more succesfully than Flash and won ksl1 plus online tournaments. Light adopted 111 pretty late, this is one of the first series where he utilized it:

But during Kespa Era Light used 111

I remember letmelose said, that Light argued post kespa, that 111 is too fragile to be used constantly.

On April 14 2022 03:19 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:


There is a part of the starcraft history being ignored by Jangbi followers and is that he tried also a comeback on afreeca and didnt really perform well and retired again. Prime jangbi im sure with all the optimizations and all the knew knowledge now in 2022 will not be enough to beat Light.

On April 12 2022 23:10 Avi-Love wrote:
The only sad thing about this ASL was SK choking against Rain. SK vs Light would've been the best possible final, and we definitely missed out in the TvZ department with both Light vs Action and Rush vs Soma being really one sided with pretty bad overall game quality.
I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.)

On April 13 2022 03:25 Essbee wrote:
All the top protoss are PvZs masters, so the bulk of complaints from protoss fans has shifted from PvZ to PvT being the "impossible" matchup. Really miss the one and only protoss master, jangbang.

On April 12 2022 23:10 Avi-Love wrote:
The only sad thing about this ASL was SK choking against Rain. SK vs Light would've been the best possible final, and we definitely missed out in the TvZ department with both Light vs Action and Rush vs Soma being really one sided with pretty bad overall game quality.
I mean look at how dominant Light looked in this ASL, and then consider the fact that SK beat him 8-1 in Ultimate battle during it (If anyone missed this series, I would strongly suggest watching it.)

On April 10 2022 09:25 LaStScan wrote:




What's up with bitching tone of the comment here? I never said maps favoring terran are fine and maps not favoring terran are wrong. I never said protoss did wrong when protoss died to a 3h hydra with 8 cannons in the front. Don't make the stuff up.
I also even stated many of various cases of PvZ where protoss does 12 nexus, zerg simply cannot do 3h hydra, but gate expo/forge expo vs 3h hydra works. It's the matter of mind games. However, cross spawn 12 nexus direct carrier build is a different story. It is nearly impossible to win for terran which you as a terran player has to accept it like his destiny.


This is the real map data if you want to talk about.
+ Show Spoiler +

And this is bisu's interview after the match.


This is yesterday's map data before the ASL Finals.
+ Show Spoiler +

Things you must know is that genuinely terran players feel comfortable playing on 4 player maps than 2 and 3 player maps. 2 player maps are very easy to abuse in many ways to annoy terran in the early stage of the game and snowball from there.

And that 1 win on Revolver, 2 wins on Vermeer for terran are Light's games.
Koreans call Light is the master of Terran because his performance of TvP is just as good as FlaSh. Other terrans are still struggling to play vs protoss in a long series match. If you want to understand something more like deep knowledge, you have to dive into korean website/communicate with korean pro streamers.

Here's a shocking result online record that I'm going to show for you.
Protoss side TOP5
Rain's PvT Eclipse 14-3 / Butter 9-1 / Metaverse 6-4 / Revolver 5-2 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 3-4 / Vermeer 9-10
SnOw's PvT Eclipse 49-17 / Butter 4-7 / Metaverse 15-5 / Revolver 35-13 / Monopoly 6-8 / Allegro 21-9 / Vermeer 8-10
Best's PvT Eclipse 59-33 / Butter 7-7 / Metaverse 6-7 / Revolver 32-22 / Monopoly 3-4 / Allegro 20-12 / Vermeer 9-8
Mini's PvT Eclipse 54-28 / Butter 7-5 / Metaverse 12-11 / Revolver 34-24 / Monopoly 9-5 / Allegro 13-13 / Vermeer 14-11
Bisu's PvT Eclipse 19-12 / Butter 9-6 / Metaverse 11-2 / Revolver 9-9 / Monopoly 10-11 / Allegro 11-16 / Vermeer 11-11

Terran side TOP4
Light's TvP Eclipse 42-27 / Butter 8-5 / Metaverse 7-4 / Revolver 22-16 / Monopoly 3-5 / Allegro 14-9 / Vermeer 15-2
Rush's TvP Eclipse 61-50 / Butter 8-11 / Metaverse 12-16 / Revolver 36-30 / Monopoly 16-4 / Allegro 17-13 / Vermeer 16-10
RoyaL's TvP Eclipse 62-52 / Butter 8-7 / Metaverse 14-13 / Revolver 37-31 / Monopoly 14-13 / Allegro 16-16 / Vermeer 18-13
JyJ's TvP Eclipse 33-29 / Butter 5-3 / Metaverse 5-7 / Revolver 15-21 / Monopoly 8-5 / Allegro 15-11 / Vermeer 7-3

Overall PvT Eclipse 577-604(48.9%) / Butter 54-54(50.0%) / Metaverse 62-57(52.1%) / Revolver 209-236(47.0%) / Monopoly 52-59(46.8%) / Allegro 112-139(44.6%) / Vermeer 71-113(38.6%)

Simply online record shows almost every single map is terran favored doesn't mean it is true. Pro terran player pool is much much smaller than protoss player pool.

On April 15 2022 09:00 BigFan wrote:
He's really solid in macro, and he can make good choices, but he'll get moments where he'll decide to ram his units into a highly fortified position (anyone remember Rain vs Larva on Gold Rush and Fighting Spirit in ASL4?).

On April 11 2022 21:01 Magic Powers wrote:


afaik Flash invented the quick goliath build in response to early reaver harassment that was terrorizing terran players in the opening. Stork was considered nearly unbeatable in PvT but Flash completely turned things around.

On April 16 2022 13:14 RKC wrote:
So was it Flash or someone else who truly unlocked* the power of 3-3 mech?

* by unlocking, I mean discovering a safe and solid pathway to max upgrades as quick as possible by actively harassing Protoss and fending off pushes, drops and recalls (and not merely knowing the superiority of mech upgrades as a theoretical certainty)

On April 17 2022 00:37 Magic Powers wrote:


There's absolutely no doubt that Flash invented the goliath counter vs reaver harassment. I followed the scene very closely back then, watching almost every single replay and vod from the korean pro and amateur scene. There was no one else who had come up with this idea before Flash in 2007. Building 2 goliaths so early, sometimes 4, and even upgrading range, moments after the completion of the natural expansion? It was unthinkable, completely off the table.

On April 16 2022 08:56 De4ngus wrote:

Literally the first thing I thought of when I watched him run headfirst into tanks lmao.

On April 17 2022 07:16 Magic Powers wrote:


I think so, yeah.
On Blue Storm the goliaths allow terran to more safely walk up the natural ramp to the third base, and again from the third base to the higher ground in the middle. It's also convenient to have the goliath tech ready against a potential carrier transition, and it allows for an early weapon upgrade, and goliaths can deal some ground damage.
In regards to cost, a wraith makes more sense with a different opening build. Flash went for the early tank push to take out Stork's natural, so the goliath tech was a logical transition. An early starport would fit a less aggressive opening like fast expand into dropship harassment with vultures.

Edit: Just want to note that I misremembered the date of the games. Flash had a losing record against Stork in 2007, and then in 2008 he defeated Stork in a match and revealed his new goliath build.