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On January 01 2018 22:36 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 15:26 Golgotha wrote:What about when I go 2 gate expand? I actually go for 2 gate expand a lot more since I feel like it is safer. But how many goons do I make before I get the nexus? Do I cut probes for the nexus or do I keep producing them? I used to do this a lot, you can get 5 goons and then expo seems to be the safe/efficient/standard to me well you can change this if you want sometimes, make a zealot or two, or more stuff or less, but 5 goons then nexus then robo then goons again works well didn't cut probes i think you can always do it your way, if you can think of what difference it makes and how to take advantage from it Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 21:37 Golgotha wrote:On January 01 2018 18:19 iopq wrote:On January 01 2018 17:10 Golgotha wrote:On January 01 2018 15:43 iopq wrote:
There is no point to cut probes to make a nexus faster. Sure, you will mine faster when it's complete, but you'll have same amount of probes overall and you will lose mining for a long time before you make it back.
I usually get my nexus at around 28 supply, but you can get a faster observer and get it later. Thank you. If we don't need to cut probes, then how many goons do you make before getting nexus? never stop goon production, otherwise you might get surprised by a 2 fact push that you didn't scout never even delay a goon to get range faster or get a probe out, the gateway should never stop producing them, it's very important to get those first 4-5 goons before you have an observer out to see what the Terran is doing damn this helps me so much and clears my doubts. I would constantly cut goons and probes in favor of nexus or robo, I'd nexus expand with 2 goons lol. Did not realize that was wrong. hey iopq, can you hold a 2 fact push with one gate FE? if I constantly makes probes and goons off one gate, and go 28 nexus, can I hold a 2 fact? will I have enough goons? I think we 6 goons I could hold it. I believe I have seen this often result in P losing the nexus but surviving if well played. I think that 1 gate FE is almost unsafe.. better check that they are not making lot of marines or that they cut some scvs off gas.
yeah, one gate expand is risky and you have to be really good with your control.
Hey ProMeTheus112, I just lost in a very embarrassing way vs a zerg player. I denied the zerg's third over five times. I had him on two base for the entire game. So he only made cracklings. I countered with mass zealots and templar storms. I had like 10 templars storming. I thought that would be enough but the lings just kept on coming and he overwhelmed me. I lost all my morphing templars and it turns out +2/+2 zealots still get shredded.
Looking back, I should have made DTs a lot earlier since I had complete map control and air dominance. +1 Sairs 12x roaming around and I even killed his lair via DT drop. I really screwed the pooch. I was so sure I was going to win so I didn't expand. I stayed on 2 base to his 2 base all game.
When the zerg is just going cracklings what is the best way to play? Defensively? Which what comp? I think I should have played defensively, get my third, cannon up, and have a couple HTs defending the third and my 2nd. Does mass archon work vs. mass crackling?
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Just make 4 archons and 2 templars instead of 10 templars. Cracklings not so good vs. archons without swarm.
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well yeah archons is really the strongest thing you can build against the lings, reavers are also great, if you bring some reavers to his base you can end the game if you have big advantage
bring both and i guess you should wreck all the glings
if you have few canons + 1 reaver + 1 shield battery at your base you can also wreck the attacking lings for example, also few zeal + 1 archon kill a lot of lings and even more lot of lings on ramp
templar is nice in theory but not so much against Z with good control, its more complementary
well actually if you can block the lings and storm the front then its really good
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On January 01 2018 21:37 Golgotha wrote:
damn this helps me so much and clears my doubts. I would constantly cut goons and probes in favor of nexus or robo, I'd nexus expand with 2 goons lol. Did not realize that was wrong. hey iopq, can you hold a 2 fact push with one gate FE? if I constantly makes probes and goons off one gate, and go 28 nexus, can I hold a 2 fact? will I have enough goons? I think we 6 goons I could hold it.
Not really, you lose the nexus a lot vs. that push, but instead of going into observers you can make a shuttle and a reaver and try to catch up that way. He probably won't be able to push into your main anyway. So you use the reaver to do economic damage back to him and retake your nat later. Not sure if that's a standard response, I don't main Protoss.
Or just make a bunch of gateways inside your main and elevator to break the contain at the natural if he decided to block it with buildings.
There is no way to have 6 goons that early (that's something you would have with two gate expand), because first 3 tanks come out when you have like 4 goons max. Then it's 6 marines, 3 tanks, reinforcing 2 vultures. You just have to delay and not lose goons. Micro is key, he can easily lose a bunch of marines without doing almost any damage to your goons. If he loses all of his marines and vultures, you can just use probes to kill tanks. 2 dragoons get shreked by 3 tanks, but 2 dragoons and 10 probes can easily win.
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On January 01 2018 07:08 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 02:03 Highgamer wrote:Guess I post this question here for better influx in answers. I cannot make the non-HD-Remaster look like the regular old version: low res, but sharp, with unblurred-texts and without 'lost' rows of pixels (best I can describe). I have graphics filters all the way to 'sharp', and everything else unmarked. Here some pics for comparison. (MCA-Launcher cuts out the black bars for you). Remaster: + Show Spoiler +Oldschool: + Show Spoiler +Am I doing something terribly wrong or is it not possible? Can s.o. tell me what to do or direct me to a thread that fits my problem? Thx I play with the original graphics and I use windowed fullscreen and the default setting of the SD-Filter option (2nd most left setting) and it looks like the original without any graphical distortions. When I use the sharpest setting I also get these weird effects like uneven health bars.
Hey thx, that fixed it. At first sight it looks just like the old one.
On January 01 2018 06:01 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 04:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
as far as i'm concerned the blizzard app launcher is 100% unwanted adware, including that login window in the game, i want none of it and feel like I want to drop it all as soon as possible lol Try launching the game with the -launcher extension. That's what i do, worked wonders for me. Insert this in the path linked on your desktop shortcut.
The Battlenet-App still asks PW and pops up though for me, then I have to press "play" for SC-R.
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On January 02 2018 01:47 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 07:08 Cryoc wrote:On January 01 2018 02:03 Highgamer wrote:Guess I post this question here for better influx in answers. I cannot make the non-HD-Remaster look like the regular old version: low res, but sharp, with unblurred-texts and without 'lost' rows of pixels (best I can describe). I have graphics filters all the way to 'sharp', and everything else unmarked. Here some pics for comparison. (MCA-Launcher cuts out the black bars for you). Remaster: + Show Spoiler +Oldschool: + Show Spoiler +Am I doing something terribly wrong or is it not possible? Can s.o. tell me what to do or direct me to a thread that fits my problem? Thx I play with the original graphics and I use windowed fullscreen and the default setting of the SD-Filter option (2nd most left setting) and it looks like the original without any graphical distortions. When I use the sharpest setting I also get these weird effects like uneven health bars. Hey thx, that fixed it. At first sight it looks just like the old one. Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 06:01 Cele wrote:On January 01 2018 04:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
as far as i'm concerned the blizzard app launcher is 100% unwanted adware, including that login window in the game, i want none of it and feel like I want to drop it all as soon as possible lol Try launching the game with the -launcher extension. That's what i do, worked wonders for me. Insert this in the path linked on your desktop shortcut. The Battlenet-App still asks PW and pops up though for me, then I have to press "play" for SC-R.
If you want to play on battle.net there is no way around the Blizzard launcher unfortunately. The -launcher option only spares you from having to use it, when you want to play offline.
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no, im sorry i gave the wrong information. But the game starts without the launcher for me in Multiplayer! I only need the launcher in order to do updates and i use the login window of the battle.net app. (similar to the one used by starlogg for example)
Here is the referring path i entered into my desktop link: D:\Games\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe -launch
So just do it like this "starcraft.exe -launch" and it should work. Run in admin mode also. Im using Windows 7 btw for whatever it's worth.
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yeah its much better after setting that command, though the slow ass blizzard login window still always gets on my nerves lal
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On January 01 2018 21:13 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2018 19:16 1a2a3aPro wrote:Still looking for some feedback on my previous post: + Show Spoiler +On December 27 2017 05:20 1a2a3aPro wrote:
Getting back into Brood War, I am looking for resources related to builds (I play P). I come from an era where replays where harder to come by, and your best resource was to carefully watch Korean VODs and try to reverse engineer the build. I imagine that there are better resources now, at least replay packs or something (or FPVODs from Afreeca)?
Looking for:
Forge FE into some sort of zealot timing for PvZ (+1 speedlot with a few sairs would be my comfort). I know there's a lot of early game deviations you can do with your nexus / gateway / canon timing after you scout the Z, if there's a good resource for that great, if not I'll try to watch some pro games. I feel the least comfortable in this matchup right now. I will have to practice my sim-city on each of the ladder maps, I know there's a Liquipedia thread for that, is that the sim-city that pros use as well or is that a bit dated / inaccurate?
PvT I think I want to get a polished 12 Nexus, and a 1 gate FE, pick depending on the map. I feel the most comfortable in this matchup historically. If my goon control is not good enough to hold off FD / 2 fact, I'll practice until it's good enough, I don't want to sacrifice econ for more goons early (at least for now).
PvP. I want some sort of safe expansion build on a map with an easily held natural (say, destination), but I'll generally prefer to one base 2 gate goon + reaver and push my opponent.
Thanks! Someone gave me a site for Korean streaming FPVODs. That's been helpful. Anyone else's opinion? I don't think you can boil down your play style to 1-2 standard builds, and that is why watching multiple korean vods (and playing multiple games with different openings) comes in as a best way to practice. Basically if you stick you 12 nexus, you'll face many different replys from terrans and will have to adjust.. playing 1 gate FE will give you even more possible scenarios (10 gas, 11 gas, 12 gas, siege fe, rax fe, double rax just for initial builds..) So.. I suggest to look at korhal.info.pl and get 2-3 standard games and write down the build orders. Afterwards you'll have to use intuition or develop best reactions over the time your practice the game. You may also want to check some T and Z vods to understand where are the biggest holes in their builds and how they handle it.
thanks so much for this link! I'm not usually up when streamers are playing and I know there are usually twitch vods but this is much more elegant. I know zero brood war builds which is keeping me from playing, which of course means I have zero hope of ever having even 1% better mechanics and it makes me not want to play. but this makes rirpping some builds nice and easy. I just need a gameplan because otherwise nothing feels like it matters and it's hard to "practice" the technical stuff.
I have like I said basically no experience with the game so I'm not expecting magic but it's not fun to not only be bad and also have no solid build orders.
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I need help from protoss micro gosus. Please teach me the art of goon vs goon micro. A primer on this scenario, if you will.
In goon versus goon, are you supposed to grab all your goons and single target the enemy goon one by one? Well what do you do when they pull back the targeted goon? Do you chase? How far do you commit and when do you pull back and focus fire another target? Also, during the engagement, I should also be pulling back my weak and targeted goons and bring them back once they are not being targeted. Any other things I should know? Thank you!
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you know, I think there is no one answer to this, because you can do goon vs goon micro in quite a lot of different ways depending on the map and depending on what kind of opening you are doing and what kind of mind game you may be trying to pull regarding if you are going to attack or how many goons you actually have and such
you can do a lot of stuff with goons, they are actually a very agile unit, remember that having just one zealot in front (or pylon, or shield battery^^) can help soak a lot of damage
positioning matter a lot, you can also split your goons and surprise attack from side, i mean there is so many possibilities and often it involves more than just goons so i dont know what to say, I guess just try a lot of stuff, move them within fight not only one by one but few at a time, pick targets but not always, use hold position sometimes, i think they can fire first if they are steady, its one way to win a fight with equal number of goons. (hide one goon in front behind a tree -.-)
oh, one thing that goons are great at, is dealing damage to units that are trying to disengage,
if you can predict that your opponent will want to disengage, you can run into his units and then fire>move>fire and deal quite a lot more damage before they get to disengage, you probably know this already
ps: man im having a lot of fun when i play, but its hard to get to play a lot of games 
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thanks again ProM, why do you have a hard time playing a lot of games? Slow matchmaking?
Okay, you are right, I should be more clear. The specific scenario I am talking about 4-6 goons vs. 4-6 goons. Usually this takes place with the first 4 goons both sides make. Both sides are engaged like this:
X X
X X
X X
X X
X X
In this scenario, it's best to target fire with all your goons right? And if the targeted goon runs away, do I chase or do I stick with it? If I do chase, how far?
I feel like chasing is asking to die unless you know you can get the final shot. So instead of chasing, should I refocus on another target? But what if at that moment, the weakened goon comes back? do I switch targets again? With all this targeting, chasing, and refocusing, I usually do worse than if I did minimal micro, so I want to learn the appropriate response and action. Also, the mindset I should have in such a battle.
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goons take 7-8 hits to die (from memory). therefore you only target fire when you have 4 goons. they shoot twice and you reduce one of their goon numbers. its important that when you target fire the movement of your goons should be so that theyre not running into the opponents line, but around the edges. if you have 5 goons its pretty situational but target firing with all 5 would be a nono, since itll take 2 rounds anyway but assuming they all shoot simultaneously, 2-3 goons will be wasting one of their shots (depending on if it was 7 or 8. i think 7 but need to check). you can either target fire with 4 and let 1 auto attack or let them all auto attack and withdraw one of them at a time, or you can individually check the opponents goons mid fight and snipe a low hp one with 2-3 goons, which is kind of like target firing but youre not going from 100-0 in 2 rounds. ive seen all the above methods used so its a pretty on the spot decision pros make (probably dependent on how much apm they can afford to spend on the engage without having to do macro stuff)
every other engage is some combination of auto attack, target fire, withdrawing units and trying to get a positional advantage. how well you fight in this scenario is mainly based on experience or intuition.
basically your main objective is to outnumber the enemy so keep that in mind. you have to keep your units alive better whilst reducing his faster to fight more efficiently but thats as far as anyone can go in terms of telling you "how to engage better". if youre asking about a specific micro skill then itd be different.
also when you have 8 goons dont try to target fire unless the enemy engages really really poorly and youve already got a nice concave. your goons will not get their shot off simultaneously and if the opponent reacts fast enough and pulls the goon back then you will lose the engage right there.
dont chase units unless you know you can get the kill shot off within the units attack speed cooldown. its better to maximise the attack speed and hit something rather than have that unit hit nothing for a little while in order to reduce a number. if the enemy pulls back a unit that unit will not be shooting anything for the time being, so you have that numerical advantage for the very short period of time also.
something youll notice even amongst pros is once goon numbers hit like 6+, both players will avoid engages unless there is a blatant mistake on the opponents part positionally. if they do its usually without the intent to win a fight right there. the intent is more to "test" the opponent and see if they slip up; if not then theyll just trade evenly and back off. how engages turn out amongst evenly numbered goon armies are pretty random and usually its just better to avoid the risk and wait for a reaver advantage or just macro up better and look for a better sizeable advantage. you dont HAVE to engage every time the units see each other on the map.
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Norway28804 Posts
with no upgrades goons take 10 goon hits. with +1 attack it becomes 9. Target firing with 5 is definitely good. You can also do stuff like target fire with 7 and then tell 4 of them to target a different goon after the first round of shots - what is 'best' is extremely situational based on the unit positioning.
There are basically 4 different principles you want to try to accomplish as best you can:
Target individual goons so you kill them rather than injure several (to reduce his damage output)
Don't overshoot so you waste shots (this means that while you should target, you should not target with 8 goons and let them all shoot twice on the same goon.
Always shoot with every dragoon - while you do want to target, you don't want goons to miss out on rounds of shots because they were busy walking to the unit you targeted. So only really target with the goons that are within firing range / the ones that will manage to get within firing range before their cooldown runs out
Pull back injured goons if they have not been targeted too hard. (If it is going to die to the next round and you can't dodge the next round, don't pull back that unit and have it not shoot.
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Is it ever worth building a bunker against 2gate proxy? Feel like it delays Factory too much but not sure what to do about zealots in overwhelming numbers into 1-2 goons after.
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Unless you have godly micro, you better build a bunker but after the factory and stop scv production for a little bit to afford it.
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hey evil and drone, thank you for the tips on goon micro. Very eye opening and crazy crazy (immensely) helpful. ive been wasting shots with incorrect positioning and having more than 5 goons target fire a single target.
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How does an overpool defend vs a 9/9 opening in zvp? On some positions im not going to scout it coming prior to the decision to drone after my initial pool, should I drone scout? Just micro better? lol
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Someone told me the only time in ZvT it is feasible to go Hydra-Lurker is against a 1-1-1 Terran opening. Does that mean Hydra-Guardian is also a good build against the 1-1-1 opening?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MO9GekQ.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DYamX9J.jpg)
