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Oystein's voice drives me nuts... I really can't listen to him. I've seen a couple of the nevake FPVODs, but they are far to few (and I also dislike the majority of the people who produced content). I really rather watch an FPVOD without commentary than with commentary (unless it's really well done)
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On March 25 2013 00:23 thezanursic wrote:Oystein's voice drives me nuts... I really can't listen to him. I've seen a couple of the nevake FPVODs, but they are far to few (and I also dislike the majority of the people who produced content). I really rather watch an FPVOD without commentary than with commentary (unless it's really well done) Mute ^^
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On March 25 2013 00:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 00:23 thezanursic wrote:Oystein's voice drives me nuts... I really can't listen to him. I've seen a couple of the nevake FPVODs, but they are far to few (and I also dislike the majority of the people who produced content). I really rather watch an FPVOD without commentary than with commentary (unless it's really well done) Mute ^^
Hmmm if anybody knows a good FPVOD resource I will be really grateful.
I did find alternative VODs to Into The MSL if anyone is interested (this guy powerpoint has like 5 channels and almost every VOD ever recorded, but it's in Korean and it's a cluster fuck to actually find something there are like 250 different playlists spread over the channel of different MSLs, OSLs and shows, but again it's really hard too actually find what you want)
http://www.youtube.com/user/powerpoint290/videos?query=show me the msl
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1. When playing Python 1v1 on fish, in a ZvP, do I go for that 3rd expo early on or just have my 3rd hatch in base? I guess it depends on map position and what the other guy is doing, but early 3rd on that map seems dangerous and risky. But I want to play standard like I do on FS, so I am unsure what style to play on Python. I hate python hehe.
2. My biggest enemy right now is that damn probe that blocks my nat with pylon. It delays my expo and while I wait for my pool to finish, I dont know what to do and what to build in the meantime. I feel like the probe delays me so much and I am playing catch up. Id rather face reaver drops than this probe. Especially when I 12 hatch and the probe is there, I don't know what to do. Do I keep droning while my drone just goes for another base? If so when do I get my gas? It really stinks up my gas timing.
And, if the guy is Terran and doing it with a depot, I should just place an in base hatch instead of a nat hatch right? I think that would work.
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12hat zvp is a lot riskier than 9pool, especially since double scouting is so common on python (as well as fs) you're usually best off taking a different base's nat as your 3rd after scouting forge fe since it sets you up for a 4th edit: and yeah zvt just 12hat inbase or in your nat to block vults. the depot block pretty much forces 3hat play but that doesnt really matter if you wanted to play 3hat anyway
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On March 25 2013 09:44 Golgotha wrote: 1. When playing Python 1v1 on fish, in a ZvP, do I go for that 3rd expo early on or just have my 3rd hatch in base? I guess it depends on map position and what the other guy is doing, but early 3rd on that map seems dangerous and risky. But I want to play standard like I do on FS, so I am unsure what style to play on Python. I hate python hehe.
2. My biggest enemy right now is that damn probe that blocks my nat with pylon. It delays my expo and while I wait for my pool to finish, I dont know what to do and what to build in the meantime. I feel like the probe delays me so much and I am playing catch up. Id rather face reaver drops than this probe. Especially when I 12 hatch and the probe is there, I don't know what to do. Do I keep droning while my drone just goes for another base? If so when do I get my gas? It really stinks up my gas timing.
And, if the guy is Terran and doing it with a depot, I should just place an in base hatch instead of a nat hatch right? I think that would work. Not sure about question 1, but for 2, a lot of people send 2 drones when they 12 hatch - if a probe is there, you micro with 2 and he has to run. If he isn't, you scout with that second drone. My personal favorite is to send the drone a little early, so when drones 10/11 are just started, and you put it behind the mineral line. Probe won't see you, you'll have 300 in time to make hatch before he comes back to block hatch.
For the third question, it is definitely better to place an off-hatch. As in, leave space for where you would normally place your nat hatch, and place it so that both fit tightly as a wall when you get it up. It forces you to go 3 hatch but you'd have to do that anyway with in-base, at least this way you can mine gas if he's not doing something gay.
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On March 25 2013 10:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 09:44 Golgotha wrote: 1. When playing Python 1v1 on fish, in a ZvP, do I go for that 3rd expo early on or just have my 3rd hatch in base? I guess it depends on map position and what the other guy is doing, but early 3rd on that map seems dangerous and risky. But I want to play standard like I do on FS, so I am unsure what style to play on Python. I hate python hehe.
2. My biggest enemy right now is that damn probe that blocks my nat with pylon. It delays my expo and while I wait for my pool to finish, I dont know what to do and what to build in the meantime. I feel like the probe delays me so much and I am playing catch up. Id rather face reaver drops than this probe. Especially when I 12 hatch and the probe is there, I don't know what to do. Do I keep droning while my drone just goes for another base? If so when do I get my gas? It really stinks up my gas timing.
And, if the guy is Terran and doing it with a depot, I should just place an in base hatch instead of a nat hatch right? I think that would work. Not sure about question 1, but for 2, a lot of people send 2 drones when they 12 hatch - if a probe is there, you micro with 2 and he has to run. If he isn't, you scout with that second drone. My personal favorite is to send the drone a little early, so when drones 10/11 are just started, and you put it behind the mineral line. Probe won't see you, you'll have 300 in time to make hatch before he comes back to block hatch. For the third question, it is definitely better to place an off-hatch. As in, leave space for where you would normally place your nat hatch, and place it so that both fit tightly as a wall when you get it up. It forces you to go 3 hatch but you'd have to do that anyway with in-base, at least this way you can mine gas if he's not doing something gay.
hey thanks! btw do you play zerg and toss? ur icon is toss so I'm not sure. if u play both that is nuts. sending that drone behind the mineral lines is a good trick.
New question: For those of you who use bwchart, how do you use it to better your gameplay? what do you guys look for and analyze? Not sure what to do with it atm. thanks!
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On March 25 2013 12:34 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 10:24 Jealous wrote:On March 25 2013 09:44 Golgotha wrote: 1. When playing Python 1v1 on fish, in a ZvP, do I go for that 3rd expo early on or just have my 3rd hatch in base? I guess it depends on map position and what the other guy is doing, but early 3rd on that map seems dangerous and risky. But I want to play standard like I do on FS, so I am unsure what style to play on Python. I hate python hehe.
2. My biggest enemy right now is that damn probe that blocks my nat with pylon. It delays my expo and while I wait for my pool to finish, I dont know what to do and what to build in the meantime. I feel like the probe delays me so much and I am playing catch up. Id rather face reaver drops than this probe. Especially when I 12 hatch and the probe is there, I don't know what to do. Do I keep droning while my drone just goes for another base? If so when do I get my gas? It really stinks up my gas timing.
And, if the guy is Terran and doing it with a depot, I should just place an in base hatch instead of a nat hatch right? I think that would work. Not sure about question 1, but for 2, a lot of people send 2 drones when they 12 hatch - if a probe is there, you micro with 2 and he has to run. If he isn't, you scout with that second drone. My personal favorite is to send the drone a little early, so when drones 10/11 are just started, and you put it behind the mineral line. Probe won't see you, you'll have 300 in time to make hatch before he comes back to block hatch. For the third question, it is definitely better to place an off-hatch. As in, leave space for where you would normally place your nat hatch, and place it so that both fit tightly as a wall when you get it up. It forces you to go 3 hatch but you'd have to do that anyway with in-base, at least this way you can mine gas if he's not doing something gay. hey thanks! btw do you play zerg and toss? ur icon is toss so I'm not sure. if u play both that is nuts. sending that drone behind the mineral lines is a good trick. New question: For those of you who use bwchart, how do you use it to better your gameplay? what do you guys look for and analyze? Not sure what to do with it atm. thanks! I played random for a long time but I main toss. I'm not good lol. I've just seen a lot of VODs and a lot of other players play. The drone behind the minerals trick, I saw because I play PvZ, and Zerg when I random for fun/in 2v2 xP So I see them hide their drone behind the mineral line, and I often make sure to check, but most people don't haha. Another common thing I've seen people do is to send the blocked drone directly towards a third, and have your second overlord go towards your nat. If the probe comes up the ramp to the main to scout for pool timing, you pull the drone back and make your nat safely but delayed. If the probe follows your drone, you send a new one. If it doesn't follow you and sits at the natural, you can take an expansion at another natural before your nat (this is for ZvP though). All of the above are definitely better options than just dealing with 1 drone vs. 1 probe/scv in your nat in my opinion ^^;
In BWChart I used to just look at the consistency of my hotkeys. I never had very high apm, back when I used it years ago I would usually be 130-140, and I used hotkeys for my gates instead of f keys even late into the game, so I could see when I was checking my gates and if the gap in between was too great. Also, in graph part of BWChart, I remember you could activate unit production which came in purple, and perhaps mineral expenditure? I would look at those too, because my macro was awful. Didn't help much to just look at it, but it was a good diagnostic tool for comparing one replay to another, or to determine "Why did I lose?" or "How could I possibly have won?" I also like the build-order statistics. It really shows what my tendencies are, if I make a lot of build-order errors, and what my opponents do on average most of the time. Knowing that 60% of all opponents go some variant of 2 hatch hydra (not really but as an example) could be very useful to you sculpting your basic/blind build as a response.
I suggest you get BWRepInfo (google for it, shouldn't be hard to find). This is a very basic program, simply a breakdown of your APM/EAPM, a graph like BWChart's but without the fancy stuff, and a breakdown of your actions. I find the eapm and action breakdown very useful in this program, moreso than in BWChart, because it tells you specifically stuff like "1245 Hotkeys, 876 Valid, 72% Valid." Then it explains why it invalidated some of your actions: "Too fast repetition, 150, 30%. Too close location, 50, 10%." So on and so forth. This helped me streamline my gameplay a little, minimizing my spam because I would catch myself making the same rally to vaguely the same place 3-4 times, which is useless spam that hinders play after the first few minutes imo. Because of this my apm ended up staying about the same, and my eapm rose. This program overall is useful as an addition to BWC, not as a full replacement.
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wow jealous thank you very much!
edit: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=53166
This Protoss really knew how to defend well!
In this game I know I have the advantage and I can win the game. I delayed at least one of his expos and I took down his main. But I run into a wall. An invisible wall to be exact! At first I thought my lings were being screwed up by a pylon block on top of the ramps, but he had DTs on hold position! First time facing this and I just froze. After I took down his main I was on autopilot and just spammed lings.
I haven't been in late game situations like this where I am ahead but I cannot break his expos. I had real bad tunnel vision and thought that my 3-3 lings would surely win me the day (been watching TSL and cracklings can destroy a nexus in 4 seconds). Sadly, they just kept dying and I was wondering what was going on. I attacked two locations at once to make my opponent multitask, but he stood firm.
Man but this game is sure fun. addicting.
I think this game shows my key issues and I was hoping you guys can watch and tell me what areas I need to work on most. Thanks again!
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On March 25 2013 20:16 Golgotha wrote:wow jealous thank you very much! edit: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=53166This Protoss really knew how to defend well! In this game I know I have the advantage and I can win the game. I delayed at least one of his expos and I took down his main. But I run into a wall. An invisible wall to be exact! At first I thought my lings were being screwed up by a pylon block on top of the ramps, but he had DTs on hold position! First time facing this and I just froze. After I took down his main I was on autopilot and just spammed lings. I haven't been in late game situations like this where I am ahead but I cannot break his expos. I had real bad tunnel vision and thought that my 3-3 lings would surely win me the day (been watching TSL and cracklings can destroy a nexus in 4 seconds). Sadly, they just kept dying and I was wondering what was going on. I attacked two locations at once to make my opponent multitask, but he stood firm. Man but this game is sure fun. addicting. I think this game shows my key issues and I was hoping you guys can watch and tell me what areas I need to work on most. Thanks again! As I am watching, here are my notes: btw I am a D+/C- borderline Protoss player right now, so not amazing. I am going to give tips based on what I've seen Zergs do vs. me that hurt me hard/I felt were the 'right' decision... in other words, no guarantee that I'm 100% right ><; but hopefully some helpful notes here + Show Spoiler +1) Try sending each new drone to a different mineral patch in the beginning, you have the apm and time for it ^^
2) You should be splitting your lings into 2 groups to better trap scouting probes, just running circles isn't going to accomplish anything (because you're pretty much banking on your opponent's lack of micro as opposed to your own ability to micro). The probe would have never seen your spire-first opening, for example. Protoss has to play reactionary most of the time after forge FE, and allowing him to have perfect intel is exactly what they need to react properly to your build!
3) As soon as your drone saw that there was no expansion at top right and made a hatch, you should have redirected your second overlord to the top left main. I understand that having the second overlord at your 3rd base is helpful (so you don't have to make a new one in the case of DTs) but what I see a lot of Zergs do is send one to the main, and in this case the overlord going to your nat is better suited for that. This is because it's the only way you can find out what Protoss is up to unless you got a drone scout in early. You might have seen that he went 2 gate citadel before starting stargate, for example.
4) On the subject of scouting, instead of chasing the probe with 6 lings, you should probably send 1 to his base to see if he's doing some sort of 2 gate all-in or something similar. If he was, you would be in a lot of trouble. You were effectively playing blind, which is never good. It also helps to know how many cannons P made in response to your fast pool, to know if you have a chance of busting with an all-in, or to know that he delayed his tech because he over-invested in cannons, etc. If you did this, you would see that he has the worst wall I've seen in a while, and therefore you could have easily ling or hydra busted if you started gearing your build towards that. It's cheesy, but if your opponent makes mistakes in a strategy game, take advantage!
5) At ~3:30, you have ~200 minerals, unused larva, and 15/18 supply. I'm not at all sure if this is wrong but it seems like it shouldn't happen >_>
6) Although your investment in sunks was a good response to the zealot count, your hydra den is VERY late, and no mutalisks? This makes no sense to me. Instead of using an evo at one of the bases, a hydra den would have been a better choice imo. Although, I don't know what build you are doing quite yet, but I feel like it'd be painully obvious to P what you are doing since you have no den and no muta...
6.1) Look at your sunken placement at your 3rd... You have exposed sunks, which is not efficient, because they will die, need to be replaced, etc. There is no loss in putting them behind your sim city. Because it forces a 1a Protoss to try and micro towards them, as opposed to taking out the forward sunks and thereby decreasing your overall sunk count. I think you should put all your defensive structures BEHIND your wall, and then use drones to wall. At your nat, you have 2 exposed when they could be hidden. I see that your first sunk there was placed poorly, probably due to larva/eggs. Remember the overlord+larva stop trick to handle that!
7) I just noticed this, you made a second gas but haven't mined it for a while. This is economically inefficient in 2 ways - wasted drone that is not mining, and no gas income when you need it.
8) 8 minutes in, your macro slipped VERY hard. Supply block and 1100 minerals incoming!
9) Instead of losing your lings, you needed to position them at every expansion Protoss has. You basically gave him a free expand because of lack of intel and lack of macro!!!!
10) 9:20, 2000 minerals?!?! Make some macro hatches, take the safe 4th, make units, do ANYTHING but bank! You have 200+ apm, should be easy or you ;D Ok you just made the 4th and a macro hatch next to it, but a bit late imo.
11) 9:30, you lost a bunch of lings for no reason ><; Those are the ones you needed spread over different bases and denying those bases! Keeping Toss on the defensive is key when you don't get a fast 4th base.
12) 10:25, idle evo, no gas mining at 3rd (gas is KEY), still 1600 mineral.
13) You are floating minerals for a LONG time.
14) 13:49, I'll be straight forward, this toss is bad. He has 1-1 and no +2 coming. This is easy grounds for a zerg rape. You just let him double expo which is... A deathwish. He has his 4th up same time as you. Zerg should be 1-2 bases ahead of Toss at all times!
15) 15:00 You just lost a large amount of lings for nothing... You should be sending overlords and scourge with all your armies!!
16) 15:19, I see you were trying to kill the 4th, but you just sent 12 units at a time, with intervals, to their doom. This is the same as throwing a game. You need to gather your troops outside the base and move them en masse at the same time. Zerg is the SWARM, don't forget that! You do not play a race that can send 12 units at a time and win.
17) 16:00, you busted down his cannons at the 4th, but lost an army and you sent 7+ overlords there, to die. This is an inefficient use of units! Same for the 4th. I see your strategy - alternating attacks on each expo. This is a good strategy. However, I don't feel like you adequately invested in either one of the attacks, so therefore you never actually did any serious damage. Apply the same principle, but use MORE units each time. That will be made easier with better macro.
18) Now Protoss has 70 supply advantage, sitting on equal bases, looking to take another, a sick ball, and you've wasted your army. Stopping replay at 19:00, this game has already been lost.
Summary:
1) Better scouting! This was your #1 issue in this game!
2) Better macro! I know this is relatively dumb advice, but you really dropped the ball on this one.
3) Spam less! You have the potential to be fast, but you end up playing like a slow player, simply because of your spam. Here is a BWRepInfo screen shot comparison between you and Effort's 23 minute game vs. Movie (unfair, I know, but look):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c7WaQWH.png)
Notice how although your Valid% for the top actions is similar, there is a huge disparity in the overall % of "Hatch" action? Clearly, you are not making enough units. You have 90 more apm than your enemy, but only 2 more eapm. That means you are wasting 88 actions per minute, at least, doing nothing more than him! Of course, Protoss in general have lower apm and eapm, but that is not a reason to be sitting at 50+% redundancy in apm. Forget speed, think about efficiency. Note your "Hotkey" command versus usage; you have only 8.9% efficiency for your hotkeys. 90% of your use of hotkeys is spam. This is a TOTAL waste!!!
For additional reference, here is a BWRepInfo screenshot from a recent 19 minute PvP of mine: + Show Spoiler + Notice how I have lower APM, but higher EAPM. This is largely due to my higher efficiency of hotkey usage - 20%. Not trying to brag, but this is what I mentioned in response to your earlier posts. I waste fewer actions and therefore get fatigued less, and also I end up doing more because I intentionally streamlined my play.
I hope this helps!
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On March 25 2013 00:00 traceurling wrote: How do you guys hotkey hatcheries/units in ZvZ?
Gonna re ask this question...
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Regarding worker numbers in TvP:
Assuming 9,7,8 patches at main, nat, and 3rd and three on each gas: Assuming 2 workers per patch (18+14+16) plus 9 for gas = 57 workers (this is the minimum)
You want more workers than that though. Add 3 to each mineral line and 2 more. This gives us 68 workers. This is the perfect amount in my opinion for Terran in TvP and indeed for Protoss in PvT. And the number is agreed on (in PvT atleast) by FyRe_DragOn in this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=393823¤tpage=2#23
Working backwards from the desired army: (Hotkey: Units) 1: 12 Vults 2: 12 Vults 3: 12 Tanks 4: 12 Tanks 5: 8 Goliath + 3 Vessels 6: 7 Vultures
Hotkey 1 to 4 (Core Army); 24+24+24+24=96 Supply Hotkey 5 (Support squad); 22 Supply Hotkey 6 (Extra Vults); 14 Supply =132
200-132=68 Workers
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On March 26 2013 02:08 traceurling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 00:00 traceurling wrote: How do you guys hotkey hatcheries/units in ZvZ? Gonna re ask this question... i do 45 hat 123 units eventually 1234 units 567 hat etc theres not that much to hotkey anyway
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Haha but like which ones to lings, scourge, and mutas?
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Thank you that is really nice.
I have noticed recently in my TvP's that when I max, if my army doesn't get attacked right away my money explodes. Perhaps 80 scv is more than enough. Though I don't know if my economy can accelerate as fast pre max if I stop at 68 workers, especially considering that a chunk of those workers will be constructing buildings. Perhaps 75~ is a good number.
I will have to test it.
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On March 26 2013 04:33 traceurling wrote: Haha but like which ones to lings, scourge, and mutas? i usually do 1~2 lings, 3 muta, 4+ scourge/lings/w.e extra stuff i have just do whatever you're comfortable with lol
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Trace how many games do you play a day on average?
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On March 26 2013 04:40 puppykiller wrote: Thank you that is really nice.
I have noticed recently in my TvP's that when I max, if my army doesn't get attacked right away my money explodes. Perhaps 80 scv is more than enough. Though I don't know if my economy can accelerate as fast pre max if I stop at 68 workers, especially considering that a chunk of those workers will be constructing buildings. Perhaps 75~ is a good number.
I will have to test it. The real question here imo is what style of play you prefer... I've noticed a lot of C rank T's don't go above 3 base, and go for that death push. In that case, it might be beneficial to have less SCVs. Some other C rank T's go for the map split, which is harder on maps like FS/Python (most common), but if they pull it off, I feel like a higher SCV count (80 or so) pays off. This is purely of PvT +rep observation though.
EDIT: Even though Dead9 mentioned 2 workers per patch as the minimum, I want to add that I read in threads on TL a while ago that P and T should be averaging 2.5 per mineral patch for maximum efficiency per base. Obv. 4 base 9/9/8/8 does not mean 81 +12 for gas right off the bat. Terran has the benefit of banking, because your units SHOULD be living longer than P/Z opponents.
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What if I go 4 base and make like 15 facts and am really aggressive :3
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On March 26 2013 06:06 puppykiller wrote: What if I go 4 base and make like 15 facts and am really aggressive :3 wut... this equation sounds scary and almost impossible to play OR beat efficiently haha ><; I guess I need to player higher level players ^^
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