EPTIt just seems like air superiority is extremely difficult to wrest from Zerg, so why bother when you can have your ground army eviscerate them. Corsair scouting doesn't require air superiority at all, so it works out fine.
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 17
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
It just seems like air superiority is extremely difficult to wrest from Zerg, so why bother when you can have your ground army eviscerate them. Corsair scouting doesn't require air superiority at all, so it works out fine. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself. White-Ra uses DA's | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2009 07:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself.  How good the person is at PvZ isn't relevant to the discussion, and is ad hominem. As much as I agree with you Infernal about the mobility and timing issues, you could stand to be a lot less belligerent. It's not like this is an idea that's obviously bad. It does warrant some discussion, especially given the state of current PvZ. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
I don't see how it isn't relevant how good you are at the matchup, I think opinions based on experience usually the most accurate ones, which is obviously the main reason why I don't really change my point, yes, DA _CAN_ be good I already admitted it. But the topic says if it is the key to the next metagame shift in PvZ - and that is NOT the case. It might be a good variaton, that's true - but it needs more than one unit to kill the stagnation that is there right now. And about the current state of PvZ - I can ensure you I still have my 60-80% winrate in it up to B+/A- ranks where it obviously goes down to 50-50ish the more you play. Why's that? Because we are still playing the maps that were used in Korea 3-9 months ago. Which again, proves my point of the maps being one of the key factors, doesn't it? I didn't really feel too much of a change except that Mutas get used more than ever and personally, I have nothing against Mutas because I deal with them pretty well. If you know mutas come you can just go for 5-7 sairs right away + get many speedy zealots, an archon and 2-4 temps and time your Storm upgrade so it finishes before you arrive at opponents base (this would be usually when you have ~18-20 units without the sairs) - so in this situation the Zerg has 2-4 scourges if you did not show him the real number of your sairs and 11 mutas. Even if you lose 1-2 corsairs he still cannot use the mutalisks until he made new scourges, which is enough time to get at Zergs base. Usually IF Zerg went for fast mutalisks like that he will have ~11 mutas and roughly 12-18 hydras if he macroed perfectly. Which means if he doesn't have a lot of sunkens he's in HUGE trouble vs 15 1-0 zealots, an archon and 3-4 templars. That is MY experience on the whole situation right now, it worked most of the time for me, IF I lose to this kind of style by Zerg, then it is usually because I did not have the appriorate number of sairs and thus the wrong unit combo which was caused by poor scouting on my end. To me that seems pretty fair.  | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 21 2009 11:30 Kiarip wrote: White-Ra uses DA's Well I use them too sometimes, but to be honest Ra doesn't use them a lot when it matters either. Yesterday in his games vs Mondragon he didn't use a Dark Archon in any of the games. Now you could try to argue that he wasn't playing serious vs Mondi, but I doubt that'd make much sense, right? | ||
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Hold-Lurker
United States403 Posts
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
On October 20 2009 03:03 iNfeRnaL wrote: M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now. If I'm not wrong, the zerg's aren't using the same build orders as they have. The 4 gate 2 archon build was used back in the protoss era and that was because this build explioted the greediness of zerg on 6 hatches. Zergs have now tweaked the degree as to which they are allowed to be greedy and came up with 5 hatch, instead of 6. Hence, the 4 gate 2 archon is now so bad due to faster timing of hydras and good simcity. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
There are various options though since you will only move out for a larger attack after you secured your 3rd base. At that time your economy is booming, and you will have not lost any HTs. It would even be possible to get more corsairs later on if mutas are a threat. You don't have to continue talking about all those supposedly strong builds that hit the zerg early or whatsoever. Thiatis not the point of this thread. And it doesn't seem like too many progamers were looking to end the game off 2 bases. For me this is pretty much settled now. It doesn't seem like too many new issues are arising, the DA has been shown to fall in nicely timing wise, and is effective against any unit combo. It isn't overly expensive. The most problematic part seems to be the defense against backstabs, or dealing enough damage to the zerg in case he invested into a backstab to come out equal. That should be very map and bo specific, though. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On October 22 2009 02:25 Hold-Lurker wrote: Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out. I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes. From his winner's interview: You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win. - Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs. | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On October 22 2009 08:22 Harem wrote: From his winner's interview: You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win. - Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs. Lol qft. | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 22 2009 10:13 swanized wrote: I believe this might be a doable thing but still even if protoss adapts then the zerg will probably come up with a new idea like queens for sniping(This was already done recently and is very doable) Can you queen snipe DAs? O_O Edit: Never mind, you can't. I just checked. | ||
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Traveler
United States451 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 22 2009 10:13 swanized wrote: I believe this might be a doable thing but still even if protoss adapts then the zerg will probably come up with a new idea like queens for sniping(This was already done recently and is very doable) Not saying I agree with teh DA. But if they built queens, just feedback them? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If you're going to argue against DAs, argue why they're bad, not why corsairs are good enough. Yes, good corsair control and templar control can keep your templars alive, just like good Hydra control can keep your overlords alive. Doesn't mean scourges are pointless. If you're going to argue against DAs, argue against the faults of using DAs. Infernal got it right with the mobility argument. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 22 2009 12:37 TheYango wrote: "Corsairs are good enough" isn't an argument for why you shouldn't use DAs. Zerg didn't get to 5hatch hydra by saying "hydras are good enough for deflecting corsairs". If you're going to argue against DAs, argue why they're bad, not why corsairs are good enough. Yes, good corsair control and templar control can keep your templars alive, just like good Hydra control can keep your overlords alive. Doesn't mean scourges are pointless. If you're going to argue against DAs, argue against the faults of using DAs. Infernal got it right with the mobility argument. Exactly what I was thinking. Instead of arguing for the corsair, argue for or against the DA. The whole point of this thread is to debate about potential changes for PvZ play as the current PvZ play is (in the context of this thread) imbalanced. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 22 2009 08:22 Harem wrote: From his winner's interview: You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win. - Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs. Count the corsairs he built and add the 100/100 from the upgrade. He invested HEAVILY into that build and got his 3rd extremely late (game was pretty much over by that time). Not saying that it doesn't work since obviously it did, but he could have gotten several DAs for that money, and kept one at home to help protect form backstabs. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won. + Show Spoiler + Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA well that stuff only happens if you either o assign the da to same control group(s) (either hotkey or click-and-drag-box style) with which you 1a2a3a o fail to know about giving a unit the move command with another unit as its target (so it wont attack, but since a da dont have any weapons thats moot, and follow the unit in a close distance NOT running ahead of it =) ) o are to overwhelmed / stressed out by the game (some ppl would say you are choking), so you are oblivious to those 2 previous points, cuz you just dont care / are ignorant in this situation (which is bad, and a pro imho should learn to handle this stuff asap cuz else he wont have many chances to get to the top) | ||
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