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chekyosikz
United States24 Posts
On October 22 2009 01:24 iNfeRnaL wrote: Believe me I tried it VARIOUS times at my own and I've been losing with DA's to the same Zerg I've absolutely raped the next game with sairs. Do you have the replays? They'd be great for this discussion. | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won. + Show Spoiler + Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA + Show Spoiler + do you that because crazy-hydra saw the DA, he didn't make mutas, and thus the HTs were spared? if so, the DA helped in the psychological game, so it wasn't completely useless, even though it didn't do much i think if toss uses the DA, he must keep it hidden so that he's sure zerg is going for mutas, but that the DA isn't so late that you can't mael in time. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On October 22 2009 17:47 spinesheath wrote: Count the corsairs he built and add the 100/100 from the upgrade. He invested HEAVILY into that build and got his 3rd extremely late (game was pretty much over by that time). Not saying that it doesn't work since obviously it did, but he could have gotten several DAs for that money, and kept one at home to help protect form backstabs. the thing is, corsairs can kill mutas, scourges and overlords while maestrom + lots of goon fire -or- archons -or- storms must be used to kill the mutas. Plus, you can't kill overlords. I think both are viable, but corsairs help more in the long run. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won. + Show Spoiler + Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg thats why he sent them first His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 23 2009 00:08 MrHoon wrote: According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg thats why he sent them first His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work That goal is set pretty high. You can only hope to maelstrom 3-4 lurkers at once if you catch the zerg completely off-guard. Lurkers are so big that 3-4 is pretty much the maximum you can get anyways, and the chances that the zerg has 4 lurkes right next to each other that early in the game are low. That first maelstrom was so funny. He could only have hoped to get a single lurker, with wouln't have done anything because there were 2 more lurkers around and burrowed/burrowing. Imo that was like storming a single overlord in the middle of the map. I didn't really get the point of his build. The DA simply can't do much in such an army composition. On October 22 2009 23:35 konadora wrote: the thing is, corsairs can kill mutas, scourges and overlords while maestrom + lots of goon fire -or- archons -or- storms must be used to kill the mutas. Plus, you can't kill overlords. I think both are viable, but corsairs help more in the long run. Plenty of corsairs costs the same as 1 DA and 1 Archon / 2 HTs. Yes the DA doesn't kill the mutas. But the DA + other units you can get for the same price can. And if you only have 4-5 corsairs without upgrades, you will be running from muta/scourge instead of killing them. Overlord hunting can't be done effectively with such low numbers of corsairs once overlord speed is done either. They still do the job, but they don't do it so well as you make it sound. Corsairs do nothing to help your army against the zergs ground forces. The DA variant obviously does. A DA isn't necessarily as effective as 2 HTs + 2 Zealots against lurk/ling, but it certainly is stronger than 3 corsairs. Unless you try to go DT/sair of course. Obviously sairs and DAs create different gameplays, but imo the DA is better for map control, while the sairs are better for harrassment. | ||
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Weaponx3
Canada232 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 23 2009 00:08 MrHoon wrote: According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg thats why he sent them first His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work Erm, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hte DA literally running into the lurkers and lings. Sending a DA in first isn't equivalent to having the DA run into enemy units. Same with templar, if you're sending them into storm, you're not going to literally run up to melee range before storming them. Thta's what happens in every game I've ever watched pros use a DA with. And it still happens a lot with Protoss arbiters vs Terran, the exact same scenario really. Usually you 1a2a3a into the opposing forces and AS the templar are running up you storm the enemy, instead of having idle templar in the back, clicking storm and then have to have the templar run up. Well DA speed causes the DA to run up and be easy pickings normally. Although in this situation it wasn't a big deal - I think Kal was just the better player. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I think one of the reason why DAs tend to run ahead into enemy forces is because most players just simply aren't paying much attention to them right now. In the current PvZ metagame, the DA is more of a luxury w/e unit than a unit that's central to a strategy, like the HT. If the DA becomes more important and central to Protoss strategy, pros and non-pros will learn to keep the DA more in check the same way HTs are kept in check. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
and @infernal's sentiment of corsairs...of course they work, but it's is still up in the air. If you invest into 5+ corsairs, then +1 air upgrade will be necessary right as the cyber core finishes, which is fine really, it's the same cost of maelstrom, and in either case 100/100 is not that expensive for a more powerful mid-game army and mutalisk protection. the thing is though, sairs are still able to be dealt with by scourge and mutas as well, so it is a matter of keeping them alive which is rather difficult, and on top of all of this, the mutalisks STILL can sacrifice themselves to snipe templar. So even in the case of corsairs, there is a high possibility that your templar will still end up sniped. with the DA use being developed, anytime the mutalisks get in range, they will end up frozen and can be dealt with. another thing to consider in theory, as well what P players already know from in-game experience, is that the difference between a 5+ sair production and a production of 11 mutalisks is huge. In the case of Protoss, we're talking about a long ass time to reproduce sairs to protect templar, whereas the time it will take to produce a group of 11 mutalisks is very small in comparison due to multiple hatcheries instead of 1-2 stargate build queues. and yeh...arbiters are not going to work except in specific late game scenarios. it's too much resources + tech + energy accumulation needed, and on top of that, as mentioned above, detection is ever present zvp with overlords and maelstrom/storm > stasis. also, for DA control, someone in this thread mentioned before about how you can right click a unit to make that unit follow another...that seems like it would be a good idea with the DA to keep it in the middle of your army by following a goon, or even your high templar. another option would be dedicating a hotkey to the DA, as P usually only needsd 1-5 for their army. On October 23 2009 00:08 MrHoon wrote: According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg thats why he sent them first His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work I think Kal's reasoning for that is that in the case Zerg does not build the typical mutalisk group he will need the DA to maelstrom 3-4 lurkers to be justified cost wise. Which makes sense imo. | ||
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Iaaan
Canada578 Posts
Think that could be effective? o: | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 23 2009 13:15 Iaaan wrote: I don't think anyone's said this so far, but maybe instead of using a DA/archon/HT/goons to kill the mutalisks before they snipe the high templar, maybe protosses could try using a speed shuttle to carry around their high templar, as it would protect your HT from muta, you can run it around your units, i think its a little faster then then mutas, as well as give the protoss much more mobility, not having to wait for their slow HT. Think that could be effective? o: A few people have suggested this already, though there are a few huge problems, notably that a player would be fumbling around with High Templar getting unloaded and unloaded from the shuttle every single time the Zerg and Protoss armies skirmish. To make matters worse, you have to care for the shuttle like it's your dear child, or it will get scouraged. The shuttle's also very easy to snipe with Mutas if it doesn't have the speed upgrade, requiring you to shell 200gas/200mins. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On October 23 2009 13:15 Iaaan wrote: I don't think anyone's said this so far, but maybe instead of using a DA/archon/HT/goons to kill the mutalisks before they snipe the high templar, maybe protosses could try using a speed shuttle to carry around their high templar, as it would protect your HT from muta, you can run it around your units, i think its a little faster then then mutas, as well as give the protoss much more mobility, not having to wait for their slow HT. Think that could be effective? o: Also you're wasting valuable resources just to run away more effectively. DA kills off the Mutas and deters any attempt at HT sniping. Whether or not this leaves Protoss vulnerable to backstabbing is up to debate. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
- Getting run over while your HT are in a shuttle - Getting sniped by 2 scourges protected by a few mutas Arbiters take extremely long to get, are very expensive. It might make sense in lategame, but for midgame it is pretty much useless. | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
Discuss? | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
Looking at the issues that you all brought up with using DA, I do feel that usage of a DA is viable. The first and crucial maelstrom that can decimate a buch of stacked mutas can ensure that ur HTs do stay protected. However I do feel that both ideas are viable and have advantages but also have their disadvantages. For example all that talk about a DA is that u would have sticked to the bisu build and created the 2 DT for harass and map control. It would be crucial that the 2 DT used would not end up dying, so u would be quite protective for this 2 dt so that they can morph into a DA for the maelstrom. Isn't that the same as not even using the DTs for harass then? Correct any mistakes I made with my assumption. I'm not trying to say that DA is not viable in using. Just 2 clicks and one hotkey and u get the job done for disabling a bunch of mutas while u can dispatch of in any way instead of the complicated trapping and storming with HTs and sairs. However, as u all are talking about the usage of just ONE DA, wouldn't it be very risky to just rely on that one DA? Also sairs do fly much faster and are much more mobile than their DA counterpart although the same DA could be used for late game. I think both ideas can be used but I rather we wait till we see a breakthrough in the usage of DA by the Protoss dragons in Korea before we try and fumble and think up some half cooked strategy that can only work half as efficiently as DA can be used. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
If you want to be able to match the potential of a DA in HT snipe prevention, you need a lot of sairs - I am pretty sure that a zerg isn't intimidated too much by the mere 5 that we were calculating with. I don't remeber too many games with 4-5 corsairs anyways, usually I see less or more than that. And even the 5 corsair variant costs more than a full DA + research, so you could very well afford a full DA including DTs and not lose money compared to 3 additional corsairs. That's why the DA isn't only viable for the bisu build. | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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